Mystery location

[Swindon 123]

Thanks once again for the suggestions regarding the shots of 6201 this time, particularly to big jim.

 

 

Paul J. agrees with this location and suggests a footpath across the tracks just north of Glanyrafon Brook - presumably this lead down the embankment and crossed at  track level and I could have been standing at the top of the bank. I'm struggling to find the Brook or the footpath on Google Earth - perhaps they are too small to see on the map? Are they north of a couple of bridges which the tracks cross on this long straight? There is no sign of the bridges on my picture. And there is the compelling evidence of the spire which could well be Wrexham Cathedral in the background.

 

 

 

I hope people are enjoying the detective work!

 

Cheers

Trevor

I don't know if the link will work as well I hope, but the google view in it is of the footpath/area I was refering to. Wrexham is bottom right with rail bridge over the brook just left of the footpath.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0295089,-3.0163161,239a,35y,270h,39.41t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Paul J.

 

Edited to add the link, which i forgot the first time.  Doooh!

Edited November 14, 2018 by Swindon 123

[Trev52A]

@ Swindon 123

Thanks for the locations for the last two shots of 6000 northbound, Paul J.

I see the sweeping curve just north of Shelwick Jn but no sign of an access road - presumably I was standing in a field for the first shot!

And the buildings to the left of the signal at Baschurch (north of Shrewsbury) on the second shot are still there today on Google Earth. The train has just come over the level crossing at the site of the station.

 

As regards the link to the map you kindly supplied regarding the footpath across the track south of Wrexham for the shot of 6201 we talked about - this is much further south than I was expecting. From that viewpoint the Bersham Road (B5099) stone bridge over the line would not be visible (if indeed that is the bridge in the background) - the oblique A5152 Wrexham Road bridge gets in the way - unless that has been constructed in the intervening 41 years? The A5152 does not appear to be a stone bridge. If I was standing on that A5152 bridge I would have thought the two bridges the track crosses north of this point would be visible. And why was I using a telephoto lens? Perhaps I was trying to avoid something in the foreground which would have spoiled the shot? Very strange.

 

All good fun!

 

Anyway, here is another shot of 6000 with the southbound Cathedrals Express special on the same day. Relating it to the (now identified) views before and after, it looks like it was taken between Chirk and Shrewsbury.

 

 

Trevor

Edited November 14, 2018 by Trev52A

[Trev52A]

right picture 1 of the princess im going to say wrexham too now, still cant work out the vantage point but compare to this ariel shot of wrexham from 1973

 

http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/150_exhibition/aerial_images3.htm

 

lets start with the spire, as pointed out possibly st marys cathedral, however look very very carefully in front of it on the 6201 picture and you can see what last night i thought to be a fire station training tower which very conveniently in the link above happens to be in pretty much the right place

 

moving right on the 6201 pic, a long white fronted building maybe? in the linked picture the shopping centre and car park are light and again appear to be in the right place

 

finally moving to the far right of the trees the final dark 'tree' to the right just before the smoke could actually be the other big church in wrexham (st giles)

 

trying to figure out what the towers are too the left of the 6201 pics are though, i think one is the 'new' brewery

 

some more ariel pics from 1973 here

 

http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/150_exhibition/aerial_views.htm

 

Some inspired detective work, there, big jim. I can't fault your reasoning. I'm still trying to find what that white 'tower block' building is above the stone road bridge on the left - looks like it has disappeared in the intervening years? If this picture of 6201 was indeed taken just south of Wrexham than my vantage point is still a mystery.

 

A bit of background may be in order, here.

 

I was sharing the cost of car hire from Tyneside with a chap I knew from early NELPG days, Chris Mills if my memory is correct. (He had a number of pictures printed in the magazines of the 60s/70s, mainly Southern steam, under the name C.J. Mills.) He was driving and presumably knew the area as we followed the two specials along the route. I probably was unaware at the time just where we kept stopping to take pictures - hence my queries on this thread! We had actually started with a visit to the S.V.R. where the 'Severn Valley Ltd' originated - once I have had all the locations out on the main line sorted I'll upload some of the pics taken then.

 

Regards

Trevor 

[big jim]

I recon The white building was the brewery which stood just south of general station and was demolished in about 2003iirc as it was there when I used to drive for FNW on the wrexham-bidston line, it’s now a string of retail units and Pizza Hut if that helps pin point it on google

 

going by the ariel pics in the link I provided it was standing in 1973 so timeframe wise it’s correct

 

Trev, you have come to the same conclusion as me regards the bridges, the wrong amount and not ‘skew’ enough!

 

The bridge that carries the B5152 is actually called ‘ruabon tunnel’ even though it’s not particularly near ruabon (it called that as it carries ruabon road over the line)

[big jim]

we may have a breakthrough!

 

looking on railmap on line you can scroll back to a 1920 o/s map of the area and it shows a 2nd bridge just south of the B5152 "ruabon tunnel", choose a later map and its not there, indeed its not there on satellite view either (or indeed any trace of it)

 

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php?lat=53.53296&lng=-1.31973

 

you will have to find wrexham from that link to somewhere near barnsley!

 

EDIT: try this one, side by side map and satellite view pretty much confirms there used to be a bridge there, the large shadow behind i recon as though is the B5152 and the pic is as swindon says taken from the footpath at glanyrafon brook!

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=53.0322&lon=-3.0164&layers=11&right=BingSat

 

streetview of the electricity lines going over the tracks as per the pics

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0325193,-3.0179533,3a,43.3y,155.7h,99.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-x7zW0m97pVL-RQV_gQYbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Edited November 14, 2018 by big jim

[big jim]

im going to now also suggest as swindon123 did that the first bridge is indeed actually the skew bridge (ruabon tunnel) as in this street view you can see the portal actually square on to the line (with room for the blue and red car to park on as per the picture)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0336194,-3.0154362,3a,75y,85.29h,72.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIT7TyYlL8cSdFQx0MK0E8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

going back to the street view of the electricity lines and their location on the original picture of where they cross the line compared to now and cross referencing it with the side by side map it would put the removed bridge approx 50m this side of the powerlines so it must have been removed before 1977 (the dropped pin below is where i have managed to pinpoint the bridge to have been)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/53%C2%B001'53.2%22N+3%C2%B001'02.4%22W/@53.031444,-3.0181412,247m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x487ab5d05739375d:0xd575606934cc778c!2sWrexham!3b1!8m2!3d53.04304!4d-2.992494!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d53.0314445!4d-3.0173394

 

as for the shadows beyond the tunnel, there is a large clump of trees on the left hand side of the line, maybe its those, whatever it was it certainly got our brains working out

 

id also suggest that you were slightly north of glanyrafon brook crossing sttod on the cutting embankment as, as can be seen in this streetview its actually level with the tracks on the down side (but it does drop down steep steps on the other side of the tracks to the brook)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0304966,-3.0222477,3a,17.7y,140.89h,88.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssSIyAA3L2BUB_FXYP0B5uQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Edited November 14, 2018 by big jim

[big jim]

the last pic of 6000, straight away i thought it looks like the drop down from leaton to shrewsbury as its a fairly straight out in the open run between gobowen and leaton (7 long straights and 7 curves) before it twists a bit and then goes back straight for the drop into salop

 

also im seeing a square overbridge in the distance and off the top of my head the only one on the route is in that section 

 

have a look at google maps below and see what you think

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/52%C2%B044'37.1%22N+2%C2%B046'07.9%22W/@52.743638,-2.7707804,591m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d52.7436379!4d-2.7688712

 

the building in the background may be the farm that is 400m back from that point using google distance measurer, the buildings certainly look "similar" on street view 

[Trev52A]

im going to now also suggest as swindon123 did that the first bridge is indeed actually the skew bridge (ruabon tunnel) as in this street view you can see the portal actually square on to the line (with room for the blue and red car to park on as per the picture)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0336194,-3.0154362,3a,75y,85.29h,72.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIT7TyYlL8cSdFQx0MK0E8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

going back to the street view of the electricity lines and their location on the original picture of where they cross the line compared to now and cross referencing it with the side by side map it would put the removed bridge approx 50m this side of the powerlines so it must have been removed before 1977 (the dropped pin below is where i have managed to pinpoint the bridge to have been)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/53%C2%B001'53.2%22N+3%C2%B001'02.4%22W/@53.031444,-3.0181412,247m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x487ab5d05739375d:0xd575606934cc778c!2sWrexham!3b1!8m2!3d53.04304!4d-2.992494!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d53.0314445!4d-3.0173394

 

as for the shadows beyond the tunnel, there is a large clump of trees on the left hand side of the line, maybe its those, whatever it was it certainly got our brains working out

 

id also suggest that you were slightly north of glanyrafon brook crossing sttod on the cutting embankment as, as can be seen in this streetview its actually level with the tracks on the down side (but it does drop down steep steps on the other side of the tracks to the brook)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0304966,-3.0222477,3a,17.7y,140.89h,88.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssSIyAA3L2BUB_FXYP0B5uQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

I think you've cracked it, jim!

 

The stone bridge in the left background of my shot of 6201 must be the A5152 'Wrexham Road'. I was aware that this structure was 'square on' to the track but Google Earth 'top view' suggested the southern portal was a square, concrete affair and it never crossed my mind to investigate in Street View. Now I've done that, as you suggested, I can clearly see the stone arch, if I back off sufficiently to get a longer distance view over the fence. So thank you jim. The skyline of Wrexham then makes sense as well.

 

In that case Paul J's suggested viewpoint of standing on the embankment side must be right, or close to the spot, anyway. It was the mistaken view I had of the A5152 bridge, known (locally?) as the Ruabon Tunnel, I believe, which made it difficult for me to accept. So, thank you as well, Paul J! 

 

So the caption for my first (telephoto) shot of 6201 would be 'heading south out of Wrexham' or similar.

 

Trevor

Edited November 14, 2018 by Trev52A

[Trev52A]

the last pic of 6000, straight away i thought it looks like the drop down from leaton to shrewsbury as its a fairly straight out in the open run between gobowen and leaton (7 long straights and 7 curves) before it twists a bit and then goes back straight for the drop into salop

 

also im seeing a square overbridge in the distance and off the top of my head the only one on the route is in that section 

 

have a look at google maps below and see what you think

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/52%C2%B044'37.1%22N+2%C2%B046'07.9%22W/@52.743638,-2.7707804,591m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d52.7436379!4d-2.7688712

 

the building in the background may be the farm that is 400m back from that point using google distance measurer, the buildings certainly look "similar" on street view 

 

Hi jim

Thanks for the suggestion and link to the Google Earth map. I can see your reasoning but it begs the question - where was I standing to take the picture? There seems to be no road access to the place you pinpointed.

 

So I had a rethink - I need a gentle left-hand curve southbound between two bridges across the tracks (assuming I was standing on a bridge) with a farm on the right. I trawled the whole of the line between Ruabon and Shrewsbury and couldn't find anything to fit. So my original idea that it was on that stretch must be wrong.

 

So then I searched south of Shrewsbury and bingo! Just south of Bayston Hill the line curves left and if you leave the A49 and take another road towards Condover you pass over the bridge I must have been on. There's a farm in the right background which fits perfectly on Google Earth Street View and there's a farmer's bridge connecting two fields a few hundred yards (?) to the north past a clump of trees which also appears on my picture. So I'm sure that's the spot. Many apologies for the red herring - I was wrong on my assumptions. We must have headed south past Shrewsbury knowing the special would be held there (taking water?) which would give us time to overtake. 

 

After taking that photo we must have headed north again to Shrewsbury where I took this view of 6201 apparently leaving the station (unless someone knows otherwise?)

 

 

My final shot was of 6201 against the light at Leominster (I think) but it was a useless silhouette.

 

A great day out, even better now I know where I was! I'll upload some of the others on the SVR and a 47 with the GW stock at a spot I managed to identify.

 

Cheers

Trevor

[big jim]

That’s Sutton bridge jn

[Swindon 123]

Hi jim

Thanks for the suggestion and link to the Google Earth map. I can see your reasoning but it begs the question - where was I standing to take the picture? There seems to be no road access to the place you pinpointed.

 

So I had a rethink - I need a gentle left-hand curve southbound between two bridges across the tracks (assuming I was standing on a bridge) with a farm on the right. I trawled the whole of the line between Ruabon and Shrewsbury and couldn't find anything to fit. So my original idea that it was on that stretch must be wrong.

 

So then I searched south of Shrewsbury and bingo! Just south of Bayston Hill the line curves left and if you leave the A49 and take another road towards Condover you pass over the bridge I must have been on. There's a farm in the right background which fits perfectly on Google Earth Street View and there's a farmer's bridge connecting two fields a few hundred yards (?) to the north past a clump of trees which also appears on my picture. So I'm sure that's the spot. Many apologies for the red herring - I was wrong on my assumptions. We must have headed south past Shrewsbury knowing the special would be held there (taking water?) which would give us time to overtake. 

 

After taking that photo we must have headed north again to Shrewsbury where I took this view of 6201 apparently leaving the station (unless someone knows otherwise?)

 

(1007bS) 6201 Shrewsbury 'SVLtd' 23-4-77 (T Ermel) .jpg

 

My final shot was of 6201 against the light at Leominster (I think) but it was a useless silhouette.

 

A great day out, even better now I know where I was! I'll upload some of the others on the SVR and a 47 with the GW stock at a spot I managed to identify.

 

Cheers

Trevor

Easy one this one. Sutton Bridge Junction, heading south on the down line. Behind the train was the site of Shrewsbury steam sheds.

 

Paul J.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Swindon 123

[Trev52A]

Thanks to big jim and Paul J.(Swindon 123) for confirming the location.

 

Trevor

[Trev52A]

OK, so perhaps not really relevant to the 'Prototype Questions' thread any more since I know where most of them were taken, but for completeness here are pics of the 'Severn Valley Ltd' special on 23rd 1977 April at the start of its journey.

 

The train originated on the Severn Valley Railway and here is 8F 8233 waiting to leave Bridgnorth at the start of the day.

 

Southbound between Bridgnorth and Bewdley (Not sure where, exactly)

 

The Six Bells Junction website says the train was headed by a Class 25 between Bewdley and Kidderminster, so this must be Bewdley with 25245 departing. (I have a shot of the 8F arriving and passing the 25 waiting to take over)

 

The train was headed by 47012 from Kidderminster to Hereford (and presumably for the return, but we didn't see it).

 

It took me a while to pin down this spot as the modern view has drastically changed, but this must be pulling away from Kidderminster.

 

According to my Google Earth search this is passing the site of Withington station, about three miles before Shelwick Junction.

 

Once again thanks for all the input in helping me identify the locations between Hereford and Chester.

 

Regards

Trevor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Swindon 123]

OK, so perhaps not really relevant to the 'Prototype Questions' thread any more since I know where most of them were taken, but for completeness here are pics of the 'Severn Valley Ltd' special on 23rd 1977 April at the start of its journey.

 

(T0205aS) 8233 on SVR 23-4-77.jpg

The train originated on the Severn Valley Railway and here is 8F 8233 waiting to leave Bridgnorth at the start of the day.

 

(T0206aS) 8233 on SVR 23-4-77 (TE) .jpg

Southbound between Bridgnorth and Bewdley (Not sure where, exactly)

 

(T0208aS) 25245 on SVR 23-4-77 (TE) .jpg

The Six Bells Junction website says the train was headed by a Class 25 between Bewdley and Kidderminster, so this must be Bewdley with 25245 departing. (I have a shot of the 8F arriving and passing the 25 waiting to take over)

 

The train was headed by 47012 from Kidderminster to Hereford (and presumably for the return, but we didn't see it).

 

(T0204aS) 47012 23-4-77 (TE) .jpg

It took me a while to pin down this spot as the modern view has drastically changed, but this must be pulling away from Kidderminster.

 

(667dS) 47012 on 'SVLtd' at Withington 23-04-77 (T Ermel) .jpg

According to my Google Earth search this is passing the site of Withington station, about three miles before Shelwick Junction.

 

Once again thanks for all the input in helping me identify the locations between Hereford and Chester.

 

Regards

Trevor

Correct on the last two locations. Thesouth end of Kidderminster viaduct, and the site of Withington Sta, between Ledbury at Shelwick Jcn, when the line was still double track.

 

Paul J.

[Ramrig]

Looks of LNER origin. As for class no idea.

Edit. Looks Gresley A class or V class ish

Edited November 24, 2018 by Ramrig

[65179]

LNER, I think an A4 or V2 rather than A3 judging by shots of Mallard and FS on the net, but could be wrong. Simon

Edited November 23, 2018 by 65179

[65179]

You might be better off making this a separate query or posting it on the Wright Writes thread; plenty of Gresley fans there!

 

Simon

[bude_branch]

Many thanks for your help folks.

[84j]

The first picture of 6201 is at the bridge at Bersham colliery. The picture appears to be taken from where now the A483 passes over the Chester - Shrewsbury line.

[big jim]

The first picture of 6201 is at the bridge at Bersham colliery. The picture appears to be taken from where now the A483 passes over the Chester - Shrewsbury line.

We resolved that one a bit futher up this page, it’s actually nearer to Wrexham than that, admittedly I thought it was as far back as bersham when we got the rough area correct

Edited November 28, 2018 by big jim

[Phil Bullock]

Picture 2 in post 38 is Alveley sidings ..... sidings trackwork for the colliery was still in place when the railway took over.

 

4th vehicle in the train is the Clapham buffet - W9631, a wonderfully period vehicle

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_en-gbGB569GB631&biw=1093&bih=526&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=0Qj_W622G6yHgAbq0KeYDA&q=gwr+buffet+coach+interior&oq=gwr+buffet+coach+interior&gs_l=img.3...10181.17240..17368...0.0..0.121.925.15j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67j0i7i30j0i24.X2m-d3Rym3Q#imgrc=JbLpoK-N_fqfZM:

 

Phil

Edited November 28, 2018 by Phil Bullock