ScotRail 1987/88 Workbench

[jono26]

For the past couple of years I have been building a loft layout based on a ScotRail station and coaching depot. Obvious inspiration being the real Aberdeen and Clayhills depot and the excellent Aberdeen Kirkhill exhibition layout.

When I started out, I realised that I would have to brush up my modelling skills and modify RtR models to get the ScotRail prototypes I wanted to represent, all of which I hope will be shown on this thread. Because I am learning as I go, I have made extensive use of online forums and any info I can find on the web and I would say this is a very important step before any engineering works commence.

I am often frustrated when researching on line by assumptions that we all know what we are doing, and hey presto, here is the finished product with no explanation as to how this was achieved so the rest of us can have a go. After much research and trial and error, often I feel re-inventing the wheel, anyone wanting to replicate my efforts I hope this thread will help. And for those in the know, please also chip in to pass on your knowledge and help me and others learn.

 

To give you an idea of what will be coming up here is the current list

Mk3a push pull rake

Mk2 push pull rake – mix of Mk2/2a and Mk2d/e air cons which may result in 2 rakes

Mk2f DBSO – conversion from Mk2d BSO

Mk1 rake – this will be based on Inverness allocations, mainly renumbering but I will also be cut and shutting a BSO and BFK

Class 47 – plan for 5 Inverness and 5 Eastfield depot plus a couple of south of the border.

Class 37 – I currently have 4 large logo Bachmanns 3 of which will be renumbered/renamed

 

Mk3a Push Pull Rake

First up a push pull rake of Mk3a coaches, 4x TS and a CO and as this was a first project I decided to add as much detail as I could. I have already finished a TS and CO and the remaining TS are nearing completion.

 

When I started out the only ready to run mk3a was the old Jouef model which is reasonably accurate with respect to dimensions, roof vent layout, bogies and underframe module detailing when compared to the recent OR Mk3a. The roof ribs are perhaps too prominent, but I can live with this. There are a couple of issues with the model in that it has raised moulded lines for the white lining and raised window frames and the original large flanged wheels and coupling will also need replacing.

 

To bring the Jouef Mk3a up to scratch I used the following;

Shawplan lazerglaze

Shawplan extreme etchings window frames MK3a

Plastruct N gauge ladders - mk3a steps

0.4mm wire for handrails

Hornby coach wheels R8096

Stenson models - discs brakes CC07W

Halfords grey plastic primer

Phoenix precision pants and varnish

Fox transfers – numbers, scotrail lining and lettering, cantrail and data panel

Railtec -  Scotrail Express window panel

Replica railways non smoking window stickers

Plasticard to make ETH sockets

 

The coach end corridors pull off and set aside as these will be reused.

To remove the roof and windows which are one piece I carefully inserted some of those wooden coffee stirrers, thinner the better, inside the lower window frame carefully pushing the window inwards. Starting at the door window and the two windows on both sides at the same end I found this was enough to allow the roof to be pulled upwards away from the sides 5mm or so. At this point repeat at the other end and the roof/window should pull out vertically.  I found that no force is required and given the age of the plastic and tendency to become brittle a gentle approach is best and to lift the roof section vertical as the ends of the coach are part of the roof section.

Once open the internal seating I found to be a lottery of colour and seat arrangements but after opening all my stock I managed to find 4 Tourist Second, TS, seat arrangements and one first but colours varied from blue to orange regardless of class. I require mixing a TS and FO to create a CO.

To remove the bogies simply squeeze the fixing pin ends together and pull off and then remove the over size wheels.

 

 

The next step is to shave/scrape/sand the white lining raised ridge off followed by the window frames. The hardest part to tidy up is around the door area due to the door inward curve and being careful not to remove the door handle. This is where a little wet and dry glued around the end of a coffee stirrer comes in handy. I also sanded off the end handrails which are represented as wide ridges on the body ends.

I decided to keep the buffers but these have moulding lines across the middle so needed sanding.

 

Next job is to fit the extreme etching frames. In an ideal world there would be a special alignment tool but as there isn’t, the best method I found on the forum was to measure up and carefully align masking tape across the bottom of the windows to provide a straight edge to aligning all the frames. Take your time with this as any misalignment will be obvious later. Etches were fitted with super glue. After struggling along with 4 coaches I constructed the jono26 mk1 fitting guide tool made from plasticard. Simply locate on the inside and hold in place with a little tape then locate the glued etched frame around the guide. Then after pressing down the frame, drop the guide back out from the inside.

 

 

After a gentle clean with kitchen cleaner to remove grease and dust I gave it a coat of Halfords grey plastic primer. This shows up any/lots of imperfections in the body work so correct with fine grades of wet and dry and filler as required and repeat until you are happy or run out of patience.

 

Additional work to carry out is the fitting of new wire hand rails on the coach ends which are part of the roof section. I used 0.4mm wire bent to size according to pictures I found online. These are super glued in to a 0.5mm hole but must not stick out on the inside as this surface slides across the body end - see picture.

 

 

The Jouef bogies are a good representation and only require the wheel slip gear removing off one side, the left hand bogie does not have this  – see P4 New St website for a good explanation and picture below. The old Jouef wheels are on a short axle of 24.5mm meaning the Hornby replacement 26mm axles do not fit and the bearing pockets will need deepening – I bought a DC concepts bearing reamer for this. If I had bought Alan Gibson wheels he will supply a shorter Lima size axle on request which I am guessing is also 24.5mm.

After a good clean, a light coat of grey primer was sprayed followed by a coat of Humbrol semi matt black.

 

 

Mk3a Vs Mk3 (HST) - This is covered and debated elsewhere, but for completeness I would like to show the difference between a Mk3a (Jouef) and the Mk3 HST (Hornby/Lima). The under frame modules are distinctly different, picture below shows the correctly detailed Jouef Mk3a bottom and a Hornby Mk3 HST above

 

 

Next are the roof vents with the Mk3a on the right and the HST on the left

 

 

 

Painting and Livery

The under frame is sprayed in Humbrol black semi matt and I also painted the buffers in the same paint.

Executive light and dark grey - The prepared primed body was carefully cleaned to remove any grease and dirt and left to dry overnight.

I am using Phoenix precision paints for the executive light and dark grey livery

I decided to spray the light grey first to avoid having to apply masking tape over the etched window frames and risk pulling them off Also, I thought the exec light grey would look lighter on the Halfords grey primer rather than over spraying on exec dark grey. I mixed my paints in a ratio of approximately 1:1 with Precision PQ8 thinners and applied a base coat. This was left to dry overnight to assess the quality of my basic air brushing skills and to check for any blemishes not apparent with the grey primer.

After following the advice of the various online guides, I applied the final coat of light grey and I think the results are much better than my expectations given my ability. After leaving to dry for 24 hours I used a 1200 grade wet and dry paper to clear any imperfections in the paint finish

 

The light grey on the model roof section should only be 6” wide or scale 2mm so I made up a small template using plasticard to mark the masking line positions. The executive dark grey is the sprayed and left for 48 hours to dry before any further work.

 

 

The inner window frames are silver on a ScotRail Mk3a and the etched frames can be cleaned up to have the inner part showing the silver of the etch. I made up a tool based on advice from a DEMU member using a short length of Peco code 100 rail with a profile filed into it – see picture below. This is then carefully and patiently used to scrape away the paint. Patience and care being the operative words as you don’t want to slip or damage, dislodge the etched frames.

Lesson learned – don’t wait 2 weeks to do this after painting as the paint will have hardened making removal slow, give it 24 hours is my recommendation. Also clean the frames 24 hours after the primer coat has been applied.

 

The coach body and ends were sprayed with Phoenix Precision gloss varnish and left to dry for 48 hours before the decals were applied

I used Fox transfers F4222 Tops numbers, F4228 Scotrail duplex lining, F4221 ScotRail livery lettering

All straight forward application except for the Scotrail duplex lining blue/white stripe which takes a little more effort and patience.

As this lining runs end to end across doors it needs to be fitted into the fine mouldings of door frames, recessed hand rails etc so I decided to use Humbrol decalfix which acts to soften the decal and draw it into these grooves and indentations. Never having done this before I did just two sides first and then left to dry to see the effectiveness of the decalfix. To apply the long blue/white stripe I located the soaked decal still on its backing on the coach side at approximately the right position. The decal is then slide off 1cm and positioned correctly at the coach end, holding this in place the backing paper is pulled away at the other end leaving the stripe reasonably straight. It is then just a case of final adjustments, add more water if necessary, then remove excess water and smooth down with a soft paint brush.

I tried to use decal fix in the door areas but suspect its effectiveness is reduced due to all the water during application so in the end I only applied this once I had removed most water and then concentrated in the recessed door profile of the Mk3a’s. The door frame gaps and hand rails I waited until the decals were dry then using a very sharp knife gently cut the decal into the groove and applied decalfix. Any areas where the decal split in the door areas I touched up with paint.

 

Note, a sneak preview of my first DBSO, top of picture, which I will cover in detail when I have finished posting the Mk3a build

 

Applying Orange Cantrail lining - Applying 28cm long fine cantrail lining in a straight line was a little trial and error to begin with and the first two took me an hour. The best method I found was to lay the transfer, still on its backing paper, directly over the area where it is to be applied. Using a cocktail stick I gently slide 0.5mm off one end and locate roughly in position. Holding this in place it is then possible to pull the paper at the opposite end and leave 2-3cm of the transfer on the coach. Once this is aligned exactly in place and held down with the cocktail stick the paper backing is held either side between thumb and finger and pulled away but from the same end allowing you to constantly adjust the lining as it comes off the paper. With this method I got reasonably straight application with only minor adjustment needed at the ends and all in a couple of minutes.

Having applied the orange cantrail lining transfers and left to dry for 48 hours the whole coach was given a coat of Phoenix Precision matt varnish to seal.

 

The Scotrail Express logo in the lower toilet window is from Railtec transfers. Rather than fit these on to the laser glaze I cut and filed 0.5mm plasticard section to replace the lower toilet windows and create a good surface for the transfers. Next time I will fit the plasticard window blank before fitting etched frame. This is gloss varnished to seal the transfer and to give the appearance of being a window. The Railtec transfer sheet also has a destination banner for the door drop lights so I fitted some of these, they are too small to read but from viewing distance they look right.

 

Next up - windows an final detailing

 

 

Jonathan

Edited November 18, 2018 by jono26

[Natalie]

Superb work Jonathan. Really shows how well the Jouef 3a can look especially with Brian's window frames and laser flush glazing.

 

Your style of writing is also really good and clear. I especially like the comparison photos. Hopefully we presented them to your satisfaction in your articles for DEMU in UpDate.

 

Look forward to seeing more of your work. Might be worth having a look at Andy Clayton's superb mk 2 stock as he detailed in REM. Beside highlighting the main issue with the Hornby 2e stock (windows too small), Andy's transformation of the old Triang/Hornby mk 2 stock is simply amazing and turns it into a very credible alternative to the Bachmann examples.

 

Keep up the good work.

[jono26]

Thanks Natalie, the DEMU article was spot on

 

The Jouef Mk3a is a fantastic accurate base model for upgrading to current 'detailing' levels and the etched frames and laser glaze give it a superb prototypical look, however I would suggest anyone reading this reads my next post below on the issues with the Jouef frame recess.

 

Thanks also for the advice on REM article I will see if I can find this, do you know what issue it was in?

[jono26]

Composite Open - The first class section is at the coach end with 5 sections/panels on the under frame, two of which have grills. For the seat moulding on the Jouef coach this will be the seat section with 2 locating holes in the floor

The composite open interior had been discussed elsewhere on this forum but unfortunately I could not find any actual prototype pictures. To summarise, the CO is a 50/50 split of original first orange seats and table tops and blue seats and tables in second with a glass door/partition between the two. First seats have white headrest cushions. All seat backs are off white and arm rests are black.

Note there is also one second class seat removed where it backs up against the single first class seat at the centre of the coach. Below is my cut and shut of two interiors. As I will not be adding lights so the interior is kept basic, also as this will be visiting my layouts coaching depot I have not added passengers.

 

Mk3a Flush Glazed Windows Lesson learned 

Unlike the thicker bodied Hornby/Lima the Jouef body has an indented window profile leaving only a thin frame once the thick outer frame has been sanded down to fit the etched frames. I used Shawplan laser glaze for a neat high quality finish but some fettling is still required to get a good fit in the remaining body window frame. See graphic below which explains the situation.

Note that once the outer window frame is sanded back (3) there is very little depth remaining to grip the laser glaze window. The fitted etched frames (4) have a slightly smaller opening than the Jouef frame and so the lazer glaze has to be fitted from the inside. Force the window too much and the etched frames come off. I have illustrated the Dapol/Hornby mk2d body as a comparison.

 

As a solution to the above problem I fitted thin 0.5mmx1mm plasticard strips in the top and bottom of the window recess as a support for the laser glaze but this still required some adjustment/thinning to get a good fit. As the windows must be fitted from the inside I had to be very careful and patient not to pop the etched frames off in the process. I used deluxe glue n glaze to hold the windows in place. My advice here is to be patient and very gentle, for me the only way I could do this was two windows per night while working on other projects, after all 5 coaches x 16 passenger compartment windows is an awful lot of windows.

 

A final touch to the windows was fitting no smoking signs from Replica which are designed to fit on the inside.

 

I also picked out the door handles with a metal/silver paint using a tiny amount on the end of a cocktail stick

 

As I could not find any suppliers for scale ETS sockets or any previous scratch build instructions or dimension information I referenced whatever online photos I could find. Although these are below the coach ends they are still visible and the release of the Mk3a from Oxford rail look very good with this detailing except for the fact they have modelled the inner Mk3 HST type sockets.

Given these are not that obvious I was not too worried about being 100% accurate, more a case of getting them to look right from viewing distance when compared to prototype photos. As I needed a lot of these, I took a step by step assembly line approach taking an hour each evening and waiting 24 hrs at some stages to let glue harden. The ETS sockets (not sure if this is technically correct name) are made from bits of plasticard, 0.6/1.6mm rod, 2x2mm square strip and 0.01/0.02 sheet and 0.4mm florists wire. Note the grades/sizes of materials used can be changed if you wish, my choice was based on what was to hand. You will also need a set of good drills of varying sizes.

The ETS sockets are fitted into holes drilled in the coach floor and glued in place

End steps from Plastruct N gauge ladders. These had a tapered profile carefully filed before removal of the excess rungs.  1mm holes were drilled below the door steps ready to take the ladders. These are not very strong so time will tell if they last, maybe someone will 3D print some in future along with ETH sockets as a Mk3a detailing kit.

 

The corridor connectors are painted black and sprayed with matt varnish. I also painted all the inner doors black as these would not be seen when coupled except for the end coach behind the 47/7 which I painted the doors light grey.

 

And finally the results

 

 

 

 

 

[jono26]

Lessons Learned

I thought it would be worthwhile to summarise lessons learned now the coach build is complete, mainly for my benefit as I will no doubt have forgotten some of what I learned next time and I don’t think it very wise to make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

Brittle Plastic – Given the age of the Jouef coach it is not unreasonable to expect the plastic to have degraded over time/exposure to sunlight etc. Of the five coaches I started only one was brittle and required a little extra care. The body and roof both cracked but I glued them back together and used plasticard patches to strengthen across the cracks. These coaches also proved difficult to cleanly shave off the raised white lining profile so I had to sand this off.

Laser glaze – before fitting the etched window frames test fit the laser glaze making sure it goes in easily without having to apply much pressure.

Laser glaze – if you remove the original moulded window frames the remaining opening is too thin to hold the laser glaze effectively so you will need to support this with 0.5x1mm plasticard strip in the recessed window opening. Do this before painting and fitting etched frames so you can check the window fits easily.

Laser glaze – I fitted this with deluxe glue n glaze

Laser glaze – I had problems with getting a good flush fit with the toilet windows and as I used Railtec ‘Scotrail Express’ window decal I retro fitted plasticard into the window opening. Next time I will blank off the windows with 0.5mm plasticard pre-cut and test fitted before etched frames are applied.

Etched frame fitting – getting a straight level fit is important along the length of the 8 windows so I made up a template tool. Cost pennies to make resulted in quick, easy and accurate fit every time.

Painting – the boundary between dark and light grey on the body side should be approximately the same position as the mid-point between blue / white Scotrail lining. This allows for a light sanding to remove any rough edge of paint where the masking tape was applied when spraying the dark grey.

Painting – spray the light grey first followed by dark grey as this avoids the need to mask over the etched frames and the light grey is best sprayed over a lighter undercoat/primer.

Etched frames – (Silver window frame). The Shawplan etched frame has both inner and outer frame modelled so the inner part can be cleaned up to give a silver prototypical finish. After each layer of paint this needs to be cleaned up once the paint is dry. Do not wait until all painting is finished as the layers will be too thick and hardened making removal difficult. I used a simple tool made from a short length of Peco code 100 rail with a filed profile – idea based on advice from Tom580 on DEMU.

Detailing – if like me you are not a seasoned expert modeller and only use basic tools I approached this build that if something looks accurate from a typical viewing distance 1-2ft then it passes OK. I have scaled and modelled things on prototype pictures, never made assumptions, and if my result didn’t look right it went in the bin and I had another go.

 

 

Costs

My total spend for each coach was approx. £38 current to April 2018 except for the Hornby wheels which I had originally purchased in 2016. Adjusting for the new price of these would put each coach as £39.60. This now means the Alan Gibson standard 12mm disc brake wheels are comparable in price so well worth considering. Note my Jouef coaches were purchased for £8 each and I priced in Kadee couplings as well as an estimate for paint, varnish and decals.

 

There are few opportunities here to reduce cost while keeping a prototype look but if you are willing to compromise the etched frames and laser glaze could be avoided bringing a total saving of £17.50 but I personally don’t think this is worth compromising on. A second option is to retain the moulded window frames and fit laser glaze/flush glazing saving £9 per coach but the main issue with this is replicating the silver inner frame.

 

 

Reference Info

In the time period 1987/88 the Mk3a coach numbers were;

CO – 11905-10, 11922

TS – 12004-05, 12007-08, 12011-17, 12019-31, 12051

 

Formations were typically DBSO - CO - TS x 3 - 47/7 and sometimes seen with 4 TS

 

 

 

[jono26]

DBSO

An alternative to opening a box

I started on this a while ago and like the Mk3a’s this was a learning process and test of my skills as I had not done this for many years. To go with my push pull coaches I needed a DBSO but there were non available at the time and the Bachmann rtr was along way in future. I had seen many other scratch builds of varying degrees of accuracy so based on this collective knowledge decided to give it a go.

There are many starting points for this but at the time none include an actual Mk2f brake second open, BSO. For me the important point here is that the DBSO conversion has to look like it is based on a Mk2f BSO. In my case the starting point was a low cost old Dapol Mk2d BSO.

 

From online forums and research I came up with the following list of parts. There was some consideration of cost against the level of detail I wanted or deemed acceptable but I wanted to see how accurate I could get on this first attempt. Some of these items will be used for future projects so cost will be spread.

• Shawplan laser glaze
• Shawplan extreme etchings window frames Mk2d BSO
• PH designs DBSO kit (PH4DBSO2) NB. This is for an Anglian Railways or Network Rail version
• Dart castings/MJT  - Door handles (2930) / windscreen wiper (1104) /retracted buffers (2934)
• JSW – coach end steps
• Various plasticard 0.1-0.8 thicknesses, including clear acrylic sheet for making DBSO cab windows
• 0.4mm wire for handrails – bent on a homemade jig
• Hornby coach wheels R8096 of which I had a stock from many years ago (alternatives are Alan Gibson which come with pre fitted brake discs)
• Stenson models - discs brakes CC07W for above wheels fitted with gel super glue
• Bachmann B4 bogies (these are very expensive but I got luck on an auction site) otherwise I would use Replica Railways B4 bogies as my first choice.
• Assorted air hoses from spares or you can scratch built from wire
• Nuts and bolts for fixing bogies
• Halfords grey and white plastic primer in spray can
• Wet and dry paper from 400-1200 grades
• Phoenix Precision paints – Executive light and dark grey, warning yellow
• Fox transfers – Scotrail duplex lining, coach numbers, livery lettering and coach detailing
• kadee No. 5’s mounted on the body

NB. I have considered DCC controlled lights on the DBSO and will engineer the model in such a way I can retro fit at a later date. However this will add a significant extra cost.

 

The BSO is straight forward to take apart; the bogies pull off and body needs unclipping from the chassis. In this model the plastic window are glued to the inner body and also form the fixing points for the chassis, being brittle glazing plastic these broke but as the windows will be discarded this is not a problem.

The Dapol B4 bogies look OK but the replacement Hornby axle is a very loose fit due to no bevel on the bearing pocket. As I had a set of Bachmann B4 bogies to hand I decided to fit these, but in hindsight it would have been easier to fit Replica bogies. I purchased a stock of these at my next visit to MRS in Glasgow for future DBSO’s.

 

Starting with the chassis I did a lot of research to find out what was required to convert a Mk2d to a mk2f, lots of pictures on the internet but struggled with actual dimensions so a lot of estimating was done based on the photos. I have included a picture to explain the differences, I found something similar on the Aberdeen Kirkhill forum posted by Flood but I added more info of all the changes I made and I hope this will be enough if you want to replicate what I have done. For me this was one of the most important steps in getting a realistic DBSO and I would not be satisfied if I had left the coach as a mk2d underframe.

Most parts can be made with plasticard but for the large Temperature Ltd AC unit fan the only option I could find was DC kits metal or a unit from an old Lima Mk2f, I opted for the later having secured several of these for very little money many years ago.

The old curved buffer beam was cut off with a razor saw and a straight replacement made from 0.04 plasticard and glued in place with poly cement.

The old bogie fitting on the chassis was cut down to account for the raised Bachmann B4 fitting and that when fitted the coach would maintain the correct ride height. Using a bit of track with the body resting on the bogies I checked my measurements to the mid-point of the buffers, this should be approximately 14mm. I then made an extended bearing surface to keep the bogies level and prevent any risk of pivoting around the centre point.

 

next - body modifications

 

 

[Daddyman]

Nice.

 

The proof of the pudding will be in the "face" - the front window shape. I've never seen anyone get them right. I harvested some head-on photos off the web some time ago, with a view to shrinking them by photocopier and then using them as a template to cut out windows. This would ensure 100%-ish accurate size and shape, especially the radius of the corners (all the models I've seen fall down on one or more of these three criteria - size, shape or radius). the template would also allow you to get the relationship of each window to the other window right (another stumbling block in the models I've seen). 

 

The frames themselves could be made out of a "plate" of plasticard or brass, filed to the correct external before it is attached to the coach. Then, once fixed to the coach end, the inner profile is shaped at the same time that the window aperture in the coach body is shaped. This hopefully shows the idea - albeit on a steam loco: 

 

 

Brass would be better for filing but hard to attach reliably to plastic; I personally don't like filing plasticard, but it could be more reliably fixed to the plastic coach end. Brass would allow the "frames-to-be" to be soldered together, and shaped at the same time, ensuring accuracy. They could also be de-soldered, flipped, and flipped and flipped again, until each corner has been checked against each of the others. Whether you opt for brass or plastic, I would use 10 thou and then skim it down to 5 thou once all the shaping is done; 5 thou would be too fragile to hack about with a file, and would just rip away from the coach body.

 

It might be worth investigating whether the thickness of the plastic of the coach end can be skimmed down from inside - I seem to remember it is very thick. Perhaps a Dremel? Or just replace it altogether with a sheet of plasticard - or even brass? 

 

If you search through here - http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/model_omwb64.html - you'll see where I got the idea for the window surrounds: someone does Deltic windscreen surrounds this way. 

 

Anyway, here are the photos of DBSOs end-on. 

 

 

 

Good luck! 

[Taigatrommel]

Jon,

 

Working on a Mk2D BFK, I realised that mk2F BSOs (and thus, DBSOs) have shallower door droplights than Mk2Ds - ie their height matches the main saloon windows.  Somehow I doubt you've failed to notice this, seeing your attention to detail on the chassis, but I thought I'd mention it anyway!

 

Nice work, I'm enjoying this thread so far.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Taigatrommel

[jono26]

Hi Daddyman, thanks for the input, and I agree with the issues around getting the front proportions correct especially the window surrounds. I started off with the PH designs kit which included front window etches with the vertical fins fitted thinking I could modify these. However, after removing the fins and attaching the brass etches the windows didn’t look big enough when compared to the Scotrail prototypes but oddly I can see how they would look right on the Network rail DBSO.

I did the same as you and used online photos to take measurements of the windows but a note of caution on using online photos as I found several where the vertical to horizontal proportions were not right. In the end I took window measurements from as many as I could find and calculated height vs width ratio until I had agreement of the majority. This then brings me to the next problem in the cross sectional profile of the Dapol Mk2d which is a little out from the prototype which I think make accurately measured windows look wrong even if they are right, hope that makes sense. I played around with several subtle variations in window sizes until I was happy with the front proportions looking close, but what I think looks OK will to some look wrong. I like your ideas on using brass and if have the necessary tools to work brass in future I may give this a go.

I used 0.01/0.25mm plasticard measured and cut to the window outer dimensions and then filed the corner outer radius. The inner window was measured then cut out after which glued onto the body around the pre-cut window opening. Once glue is dry the frame is filed and sanded to a prototypical thickness, carefully. I will post pictures in future updates.

Jonathan

 

[Daddyman]

I do seem to remember what you say about the Airfix body profile - there's not enough outward bow along the centre-line of the body, if I recall? - and that makes the shape of the ends wrong. I think that was the point I gave up. I'm afraid I'll be opening a box on this one! 

 

Heroic effort on your MK3s, by the way! Thought-provoking... Do you resin-cast at all? I plan to buy one Oxford Mk3, cast the ETS sockets, vestibule connections and steps, and then bin the rest. I had planned to fit them to a Hornby Mk3, but after reading your account, I'm considering Jouef. I can't quite see the corridor connections on the Jouef model in your photos, but possibly a bit basic? 

[jono26]

Jon,

 

Working on a Mk2E BFK, I realised that mk2F BSOs (and thus, DBSOs) have shallower door droplights than Mk2Ds - ie their height matches the main saloon windows.  Somehow I doubt you've failed to notice this, seeing your attention to detail on the chassis, but I thought I'd mention it anyway!

 

Nice work, I'm enjoying this thread so far.

Rich

I did a fair amount of home work before starting the DBSO and I had picked up on the size of the window drop lights on the Mk2f and put it on my list of mods to the Mk2d body. For some inexplicable reason I then overlooked doing this until I spotted my mistake once the exec light grey was on. As this was a first attempt I am not too worried as I learned a lot for future builds so watch out for a future more accurate Mk2f DBSO.

No prizes on offer for those that spot them but there are a couple of other non Mk2f features on this build.

Jonathan

[jono26]

Heroic effort on your MK3s, by the way! Thought-provoking... Do you resin-cast at all? I plan to buy one Oxford Mk3, cast the ETS sockets, vestibule connections and steps, and then bin the rest. I had planned to fit them to a Hornby Mk3, but after reading your account, I'm considering Jouef. I can't quite see the corridor connections on the Jouef model in your photos, but possibly a bit basic? 

 

No I haven't tried casting in resin, but may give this a try for other projects. The ETS/H sockets were not that difficult once I figured out how to make them and then set up a production line to mass produce. On my DEMU forum page we had some discussion around the sockets on the Oxford rail and concluded the inner 2 sockets were HST types so I only modelled the outer sockets as per prototype Mk3a pictures on the web/flickr. One thing about the Jouef corridor connection is that they are recessed into the coach end unlike Hornby/Lima which sit flush. See P4 New street Mk3a's, JSW used Jouef corridor connection on Lima.

Picture shows a little bit more detail on the Jouef coach ends. I painted the entire corridor connection matt black on all but one coach, the one behind the loco.

[Daddyman]

The recess looks good on the Jouef, but I think they would benefit from OR replacements for the corridor connections. 

 

Not sure if these details shots are any use:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Reid]

The gangways as modelled by Jouef are spot on for use on the prototype Mk3, the HST Mk3's and the 3A's - up to a point They were modelled on the original foam type which turned out to be a mistake - the polyurethane foam used between the body and there faceplate acted like a sponge in the wet and quickly began to deteriorate / fall apart.  A fairly extensive modification was applied to them to replacing the foam with rubber bellows - as seen in all the photographs above and correctly represented by Oxford Rail on the Mk3A's. If you are modelling them accurately, after the spring of 1984 all of the foam gangways had gone, but not before one caused an extensive fire on an E&G set at Cadder the previous year.

 

[edit] to add - for modelling sake, the foam ones have flat and square section foam from the body to the faceplate, the later one's a nice traditional looking rounded bellows.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Bob Reid

[dj_crisp]

I'm really enjoying this thread

 

Sorry to hijack it but I'm having a play with a Oxford Mk3a... I don't suppose anyone knows the correct height and width of the roof ribs... really tempted to test my sanity and have a go at replacing them.

[Departmental203]

I have also read the Mk3 detailing on a DEMU UPdate (even though I'm no member!)

 

Good luck with the DBSO, if you're modelling post-1984, the snowplough needs to be fitted.

 

Anyway, excellent work

 

Jules

[Bob Reid]

I have also read the Mk3 detailing on a DEMU UPdate (even though I'm no member!)

 

Good luck with the DBSO, if you're modelling post-1984, the snowplough needs to be fitted.

 

Anyway, excellent work

 

Jules

 

 

It's not a snowplough  - it's an obstacle deflector or in the parlance of the time - a humble coo catcher.

[Departmental203]

Fitted after the Polmont derailment of 1984 because of a cow after all. Should have known... :fool:

 

Jules

[Bob Reid]

Coined by the Glasgow Evening Times amongst other to sensationalise it - hardly appropriate when it was associated with its use after the loss of 13 lives.  Needless to say we were expected to never to call it by that name.

[Bob Reid]

DBSO

An alternative to opening a box

.........

 

 

Great work Jon and they are turning out well...

 

Couple of things to bear in mind with the DBSO...

 

You need B4's fitted with hydraulic dampers rather than the friction dampers usually seen - that said both Hornby on the 2E and Bachmann on the 2F have them fitted (for the 2E it's only appropriate for later modified bogies.   

 

Prior to the obstacle deflectors being fitted, you need railguards on the leading bogie headstock (at the cab end).  After the deflectors were fitted they remained in place - and were fitted to the additional DBSO's though in reality they served no purpose.

 

Unless you are modelling 9711-13 the bogies need to have the friction brake blocks cut off and a representation off the Girling WSP equipment fitted to the right hand bogie - as with the Mk3A's - and of course the disc brake cheek discs.  If you are modelling 9711-13 you don't need the WSP equipment.

 

You seem to be short of one equipment case on the DBSO.  This was fitted to the position on the underframe where you removed the PV unit from the 2D.  It wasn't normally fitted to the 2F BSO's as it was added during the conversion to house the two-wire control modules.

 

If you are modelling them post 1988 there needs to be an NRN aerial on the roof just to the rear of the cab.

 

Hope that's of some help and certainly not a criticism of your work....

Edited November 17, 2018 by Bob Reid

[jono26]

Bob,

 

Thanks for the input, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for to capture anything I had missed or improve mine and other readers modelling skills. 

 

Bogies - the dampers are one of the things I did not correct on the Mk2d B4 bogies but I have it in the plan to modify these before I do any weathering

 

Rail guards - I considered additional fine detail but wasn't sure of the best way to make these, I think brass would be more robust.

 

I have no plans to model the non disc brake DBSOs so I cut off the old brake blocks and have added the WSP gear and brake discs.

 

Big thanks for spotting the missing under frame unit, I have just trawled back through my prototype pictures which aren't great for this view but I found one showing this unit and also pictures show the non disc brake DBSOs have a cylinder in this position. I referenced several Mk2f BSO as there were better close ups available which is probably why I missed this. Fortunately I can easily retro fit this.

 

My time period is mid 87-mid 88 so I will not be adding the NRN aerial

 

Jonathan

[Bob Reid]

Thanks Jonathan as long as it's of some use - DBSO's 9711-9713 had a few minor changes so unless you really need to have one of the later builds, they are best avoided - the equipment case if I remember correctly was moved into the van area above the brake cupboard - the cylinder is another main air reservoir (If I remember correctly to try and make them less sensitive to low main air problems).

 

I forgot one other (very slight) very slight difference.  The furthest away boxes from the cab on the MA set side (the side viewed with the cab to the left) - on the 2d-e's these were two seperate cases (kind of stuck together by the model manufacturers)  On all of the 2f's inc. the DBSO,  these two boxes were replaced by a single box / case, which was slightly less wide but deeper than the two cases of the earlier marks.  Only a daft wee point!

 

Great work!

 

[Edit] Oh and another - after the obstacle deflector's were fitted the buckeye coupler from the cab end was removed - so all you'll see is the drawhook. The yellow main air coupling/valve was bolted onto the face of the deflector - same position just a wee bit lower down.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Bob Reid

[jono26]

DBSO continued 

The Dapol Mk2d body was first stripped and the window frames and roof ribs sanded back. I carefully dug out the extra roof roevac vent at the passenger end and fitted this above the drivers cab. The hole is then filled and sanded flush.

Now is a good time to check the fit of the laser glaze windows to ensure they will push easily in place from the inside and not risk pushing off the etched frames.

 

Shawplan etched window frames  will be fitted as per the Mk3a process prior to the first pass grey primer. At this point it is worth mentioning that the door drop lights/windows are deeper on a Mk2d whereas on the 2f they align with the bottom of the passenger windows. I overlooked this but not a big issue and at the time I decided I could live with this though making the change is not a difficult task. The passenger end gangway was retained and after a quick spray with grey primer will be painted black and if you wish, cream/fawn coloured doors as per Mk2f, note the mk2d doors are red.

I removed the moulded hand rails and door handles but retained the door hinges except for the two doors that open inwards that have incorrectly had them moulded on – see picture below

I fitted new wire handrails at the passenger end of the coach

 

DBSO cab

Using the PH designs template I drilled/cut out the new windows for the driving end and filled in the old windows. There was then a slow repetitious sand, fill, prime, close up photo, until it looked right. I used 400, 800 and 1200 range of wet and dry paper.  I made the front windows proportionally the same as the prototype for which I gathered as many shots as I could from the internet, and also due top the inaccuracies of the Dapol moulding I tweaked the windows a little so they looked right The result is windows fractionally wider than the template and creates the correct size gap between the frame and the corridor blanking plate. I made new front window frames from plasticard as the PH designs frames are fitted with side deflectors/‘blinkers’ not seen on the ScotRail DBSO. The plasticard replacements are one piece .020 (not 0.01 as previously stated) cut and filed extremely carefully to shape as I couldn’t think of an alternative at the time. Recommendation here is patience and slowly slowly gently does it approach.

At this point I realised that there were subtle variations amongst the ScotRail DBSO cab fronts – 1 or 2 wipers, numbers shown or not, black or yellow painted window frames, rain strips removed, centre corridor window surrounds, covers over the top of the ETH plug, lamp brackets etc. So decide on which DBSO early and build accordingly.

 

I decided not to use the brass PH designs light cluster etchings as I wasn’t sure about fitting, I also though, mistakenly, they were too big. Having measured the distance between the windows to the base of the Dapol body and the position of the horn grill to the window I could not get the spacing to look right with the light clusters. This is the Dapol Mk2 end not quite proportionally right. Anyway, this was easily fixed with some plasticard and a gentle sloped profile before gluing and filling and sanding. I drilled 1.5mm holes to take lights.

 

The horns and grill took a bit of thinking about as the prototype grill looks near flush with the body, given it is probably no more than 5mm steel mesh in reality, so to overcome the limitations of brass etching I cut back the body to recess the grill to give a flush-ish look. At the same time I cut a 2x4mm hole through the body in the centre of the recess. The horns were formed using 2 short lengths of 2mm plastic rod mounted in holes drilled in a small piece 4x6mmx0.02mm plasticard. Rod was drilled and then opened out with a fluted profile using the end of a knife. This is then inserted into the hole from the inside and glued in place. I will paint this a light grey so it shows out through the grill.

 

The body was then given a coat of Halfords grey plastic primer to show up any imperfections, corrections made and then a final coat applied. This was left to dry for minimum 48 hours and then I gave a light sand with 1200 grade paper.

Once I was happy the front was OK, I used Halfords white primer as a base for the yellow cab end, this will need a fine sand (1200 Wet&Dry) once dry to provide a fine smooth surface for the final coats of yellow.

 

Unlike later DBSO variants the ScotRail version retained a rubber gangway seal onto which the end plate with window was fitted. Often I have seen this sticking out to far and doesn’t look right so check with actual photos. A simple fix was to use the Dapol gangway end and trace the outline onto 0.04 plasticard, cut it out and file a rounded profile on the edge. I painted this semi matt black which looks convincing and creates the right amount of projection from the body. Onto this I will fix the PH designs brass gangway end. Fixing clips were made from slivers of plasticard and super glued onto the brass. I will only put this on once the body painting is complete.

 

After all this work I thought a comparison picture of original Dapol Mk2d BSO to Mk2f DBSO was worth showing 

 

[Bob Reid]

Looking good Jonathan.  What rainstrips are you referring to?

[jono26]

Looking good Jonathan.  What rainstrips are you referring to?

The gutter? they are moulded around onto the coach ends on the Dapol Mk2d