ScotRail 1987/88 Workbench

[Bob Reid]

The gutter? they are moulded around onto the coach ends on the Dapol Mk2d

 

 

You mention rain strips in the photo and text.  I thought you were talking about something fitted above the drivers window? (all were removed at conversion) at the same Time the curved end panels were replaced with flat panels.

 

The set numbers - this posting gives some idea of their application ; http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115265-scotrail-push-pull-operations-in-the-1980s/page-4&do=findComment&comment=3020378

[tractor_37260]

Some excellent modelling - have been following with interest

I've cut and shut a number of these DBSO's over the years but none to this standard. You've captured the cab end look very well indeed.

One small thing that is perhaps questionable is the size and shape of the end cover plate window, it may just be the way the camera has captured it, but compared to Daddyman's photo above it appears ? A wee bit tall and oblong instead of more square-ish...all three front cab windows should

near enough align along their top and bottom edges..

Always good to see some proper modelling, so much more rewarding than just opening boxes....

 

Regards

Ken

Edited November 19, 2018 by tractor_37260

[Daddyman]

One small thing that is perhaps questionable is the size and shape of the end cover plate window, it may just be the way the camera has captured it, but compared to Daddyman's photo above it appears ? A wee bit tall and oblong instead of more square-ish...all three front cab windows should

near enough align along their top and bottom edges..

Yes, agreed - I think PH has misled you there. The distance to the orange line on this photo confirms tractor_37260's point. 

 

 

You also need to replicate the inner centre window as it was visible through the outer. It looks from the NR DBSO end photo I posted to be the same size as the side ones. 

 

The driver's side window doesn't look quite right - it should have rounded corners and be taller than it is long; yours looks a little too close to square.  

Edited November 19, 2018 by Daddyman

[MJI]

Very interesting thread

 

The Joueff coaches still scrub up well

 

As does the Airfix 2D, but interesting on the fan, 2F are same as TSO/FO but 2D use a single Airfix style one.

 

I have used resin casting as well, made up some FO seats to tidy up Airfix internals, also copied a roof vent for BFK conversions. I would copy the modified boxes in resin for the next few DBSOs.

 

I need to scrub up 5 Jouefs for my WCML set

[Bob Reid]

Martin, the single large fan was used on all air conditioned Mk2d-f BSO's. The 2d & e BSO's used a single large "Stone's" fan, and the 2f's, a single large fan by "Temperature Ltd." - There's only a subtle difference in the shape of the fan housing. The 2f Temperature one has more of a larger bell mouth shape and the stones fan has the motor on the outside.  The housing behind them though is quite different - on the Stone's fan, it basically sits on a square box whereas with the Temperature version it slope back behind the fan housing slightly wider but narrower "box".

Edited November 19, 2018 by Bob Reid

[MJI]

Martin, the single large fan was used on all air conditioned Mk2d-f BSO's. The 2d & e BSO's used a single large "Stone's" fan, and the 2f's, a single large fan by "Temperature Ltd." - There's only a subtle difference in the shape of the fan housing. The 2f Temperature one has more of a larger bell mouth shape and the stones fan has the motor on the outside.  The housing behind them though is quite different - on the Stone's fan, it basically sits on a square box whereas with the Temperature version it slope back behind the fan housing slightly wider but narrower "box".

 

I'll take a close look at those then for future conversions.

 

There is something satisfying about using basically accurate older models.

[jono26]

One small thing that is perhaps questionable is the size and shape of the end cover plate window, it may just be the way the camera has captured it, but compared to Daddyman's photo above it appears ? A wee bit tall and oblong instead of more square-ish...all three front cab windows should near enough align along their top and bottom edges.

Thanks for the positive comments. Agree on the photo the central window looks odd and not aligned with the two cab windows. This is the standard PH window frame but on the finished model it looks much better and closer aligned, not 100% but very close. Having used the PH template for marking and then cutting the cab windows I did not check the central window against these at the time and it was only once the end plate was fitted that you can notice a slight difference, but it is slight and maybe down to my window cutting.

 

You also need to replicate the inner centre window as it was visible through the outer. It looks from the NR DBSO end photo I posted to be the same size as the side ones. 

 

The driver's side window doesn't look quite right - it should have rounded corners and be taller than it is long; yours looks a little too close to square.  

 

I decided not to model the inner centre window at this time but the inner structure is there to fit it and painted black so as not to be noticeable.

 

Agree on the side windows but they are oblong as per PH designs template and as far as I can tell from measurements proportional H Vs W, must be the photo but you are correct on the square corners. I noticed the curve was smaller than other windows but replicating was difficult as I cut exactly to the template size. Lesson learned for future DBSO conversions is to cut a smaller window and take time to file out preserving the corners.

 

Thanks to both for your feedback

 

Jonathan

[jono26]

DBSO B4 Bogies modifications. Wheel slip gear is fitted on the right hand bogie side while steps are on the right hand bogie. Note that I did not correct the dampers to Mk2f type but this is an easy retrofit which I will do before weathering.

For the wheel slip gear I tried out different construction methods most of which were too fragile but in the end settled for the following;

1.5mm square plasticard used for the back plate fitted into the upper frame of the bogie.

I drilled a 0.4mm hole through this to take the pipe work (0.3mm wire) and ensure a solid fit/construction.

1.6mm rod plasticard x 2mm long drilled through to take 0.3mm wire and a flat side filed to ensure a good glue bond onto the back plate. I filed a square profile at the top of this to replicate the hose fitting and drilled through to take the wire/hose from the axle box. I found it easier to drill both hole before cutting the 2mm section from the rod length.

Wire then threaded through and bent and cut to size and held in place with super glue

Axle box mods are again from plasticard cut and filed to approximate size and shape.

This is a fiddle of a job but just follow prototype pictures and/or the diagram and finished product picture below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73574431@N06/8010472739/

 

 

The prototype DBSO have steps fitted to the left hand bogie, opposite side to the brake gear, so I decided to have a go at making my own from brass sprue left overs and some bent wire. After some trial and error I think I got a reasonable approximation to the prototype photo I was using, after painting they looked about right. I soldered a 0.45mm wire pin on the underside of the top step and drilled a similar size hole in the bogies which gives a firm fit with some super glue.

 

To complete the bogies I fitted new 12mm wheels from Hornby with brake discs super glued on 

 

 

[jono26]

DBSO body fixing point - The coach body is held onto the under frame via the corridor connectors slotting over a tab on the under frame and then clipping into the body. Due to the loss of the corridor connector at the driving end the body has no locking point onto the under frame. I retained the under frame male connector but cut this flush with the body to avoid interference with the new corridor blank. On to this I glued a strip of 1mm plasticard projecting 1mm and enlarged the cut out in the body to accept its higher position. The corridor blanking plate now has a corresponding section cut out such that when mounted using double sided tape it will lock the body onto the under frame.

Note there are also clip points on the side of the under frame which located into the old glazing but having discarded this I replaced it with similar thickness plasticard glued inside the body. I need to retain access to the DBSO to fit DCC driving lights at some later date.

 

DBSO Deflector/cow catcher. The PH designs kit comes with a 2-piece brass etch which requires some careful bending and alignment. I soldered this together in stages using clamps to retain the correct alignment, so I would recommend a slow and measured approach. Still not happy with the join as it creates a step profile where the prototype has none but once painted and weathered it will be OK. I fitted plasticard strip to the fixing bracket to get the correct spacing from the buffer beam and super glued in place

 

Jonathan

 

 

[jono26]

Completing the DBSO

The body was painted at the same time as the previous Mk3a coaches, light grey first followed by the dark grey. Once dry I applied a gloss varnish, Phoenix Precision pre-thinned for airbrushes, and allowed several days drying time before applying the Fox Transfer decals. The whole body was then sealed with Phoenix Precision pre-thinned matt varnish. Please also not the orange cantrail on this model was hand painted having first masked above and below the gutter with Tamiya masking tape.

 

The laser glaze windows fit in from the inside taking care not to push the etched frames off the outside.  I used Replica railways no smoking decals fitted to the inside of the windows. The interior was treated to a light coat of grey primer then the seats / tables painted blue and the cab area painted black as I have not added any interior detail… yet.

I also made window bars from 0.33mm wire and plasticard spacers, these are glued in place once the glazing is fitted.

 

ETH/S sockets were scratch built from plasticard. Hoses from Heljan spares but note I did not locate exactly like the prototype as one of these is fitted into the cow catcher but as this is brass and I don’t have a suitable drill I mounted it as low as possible.

 

FDM cable/sockets were scratch built from plasticard and fine wire.  The orange socket section was made from 0.25mm/0.01 plasticard with the wire strand glued on the back, after painting this is glued on to the DBSO with superglue. A 0.25mm hole is drilled below the oval plate and the wire bent as per prototype and glued into the hole from the inside. The wire was painted black.

 

Handrails, door handles and windscreen wiper brings the DBSO build to a conclusion for now – cab detailing and lights at a later date so for now excuse the empty light sockets.

 

if I have missed any detail on how I did something please ask 

 

Jonathan

 

[Departmental203]

Excellent work Jonathan, I think you have nailed the DBSO, especially the front end, and that is tricky to get right.

 

I have read your excellent article on the MK3a coaches on a DEMU update.

 

Glasgow-Edinburgh services have changed forever with electification...watch this space!

 

Good luck with other projets

 

Jules

[jono26]

Thanks Jules

I think the front of a DBSO is the most difficult thing I did on the build and it took several attempts as the old Dapol coach is not 100% in its dimensions which makes getting the window looking right difficult as you need to play around with the size and proportions to get a good balance in relation to the coach end.

I have followed up the Mk3a ScotRail coach DEMU update article with one on the DBSO which is due for release very soon, this also details my attempts at a low cost DBSO conversion.

 

Jonathan

 

[Departmental203]

I am actually not a DEMU member so it'll be hard getting UPDate!

 

I got 2 copies from the group Scottish modellers at the Falkirk show, which is where I heard about your push-pull project

 

Happy holidays!

 

Jules

[BigAndy]

Hi Jonathan,

                    I've just found this thread and will be following it closely from now on! Your work is top drawer and I'm very pleased to see someone else modelling the 1988 era, as that's my chosen period too.

 

Myself and 4 others are currently building Glasgow Queen St (1988) in EM, so your photos and info are very interesting to read. I've got a photo album here on RmWeb, under 'Detailed Diesels', so feel free to have a gander at your leisure.

 

I'm going to be demoing at the DeFine one day show in January and also at Stafford show after that, so if you attend either of those shows, PLEASE bring some of your stock along so I can have a look in the plastic so to speak and also have a chat!

 

Interesting that you've chosen the Joueff 3a's.........myself and Bill ( who's also building GQS but in P4 ) spent a lonnnnnng time agonising over whether to use them or the Oxford Rail ones. Bill, I think, is still a bit undecided but I have plumped for the Oxford Rail coaches - purely based on the pro's and cons of stripping both manufacturers versions.

As you have highlighted, the Jouff 3a's require an awful lot of scraping and filing - with that 'orrid brittle plastic, so the OR won the day for me.

 

Under the Oxford Rail thread at the top of RmWeb, and in the Oxford Rail 3a section, I have put a couple of photos of the one I have done to date. Myself and Bob Reid also highlighted the shortcomings of the OR model and what needs to be done in order to get it up to standard. Page 49 ( post #1203 onwards ) and page 50 of that thread refers.

 

As for Extreme Etchings window frames, they are superb arent they? My own personal favoured method of attaching to the body of the coach, is to use gloss varnish. I draw a thin pencil line above and below the appertures, then fix them using thinned gloss, letting the surface tension draw it down onto the bodyside. This way, I can manouvre the etching for quite a whille, to ensure it is perfectly straight and level - it's also easy to wash away any surplus varnish from the bodyside, prior to it drying and therefore completely nullifying any escaped residue - something hard to do with superglue. That's just my personal preference though and it's down to individual likes as to what method you use.

 

Btw, Very kind comments from Natalie, you are too kind m'dear.

 

We've just had a website constructed for our version of GQS and as soon as I've completed writing up some bits and bobs for it, I'll give you the URL.

 

Keep up the excellent work and I hope to be able to chat face to face fairly soon.

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

PS I've still got the two articles I wrote for Rail Express, on Word Docs without the photos though. If it helps in any way, PM me with your email address and I'd be most happy to flick them across to you. It kind of explains the sad lengths I go to on MK2 coaches in order to get the tumblehome right.

[Departmental203]

Hi Andy

 

Have read your ways of working with MK2s in Rail Express Modeller and how tour team are building Glasgow Queen Street...in EM gauge!!!

 

Looks like you love your liquid lead!!

 

Wish you and your team good luck

 

Jules

[jono26]

Andy thanks for your encouraging words, I have long admired your work on the detailed diesels gallery and though I am still learning and very time constrained my aim is to achieve this level of detailing in future projects. Thanks for the offer of your rail express documents I sent my contact via PM earlier.

 

One day I aim to make it to shows south of the border but living 3 hours north of Glasgow it is a major undertaking just to get over the border to England from here. I usually attend Glasgow and Perth so if you expect to be at either of these anytime let me know.

 

Looking forward to seeing your GQS website and rolling stock, that’s going to be a lot of Mk3a’s and you have probably gone down the easier route with OR, I would not like to do so many Jouef conversions unless I was retired with plenty of spare time and infinite patience.

My choice of Jouef Mk3a was motivated by the modelling challenge to see what I could do with this coach and to test my skills.

 

Agree on the Shawplan EE frames, absolutely stand out feature on the finished Mk3a with the inner silver window frame but can’t say I enjoyed the fitting of laserglaze afterwards in the Jouef body. Mk2’s are a lot easier, thankfully, as I have 7 ready for the work bench in the new year and Shawplans stand at MRS Glasgow will be having a visit from me.

 

To all RMWEB members I wish you all a very merry Christmas and happy new year and thanks to all for some inspirational posting in 2018

 

Cheers

Jonathan

 

 

[MJI]

That rake is really good, the DBSO is excellent. Better than my Airfix detail ups.

 

As before I already.have Joueffs

 

Mark 2 Aircon, I appear to have standardised on Airfix, I sort of ignore the tumblehome (OK I sand it a bit to tighten it), but I do Laserglaze Extreme Etching them. Managed to do 2C BSO, 2D TSO, TSOT, BFK, FK, 2E TSO, 2F FO from them.

[jono26]

Thought I would follow up on the DBSO build with a breakdown of costs as there were a lot of detailing parts used on this mainly to see if I could get a prototypical look worthy of some of todays ready to run models. 

My total expenditure of £53 on the fully detailed model does not include DCC fitting or lighting as per the Bachmann DBSO although I have drilled holes in the lighting pods ready for LED or fibre optic. Even with conservative estimates for these components I expect to exceed the cost of the ready to run offering.

However, if I am happy to have no running lights I have achieved a realistic Mk2f DBSO which I think will stand up to close inspection and I have had the pleasure of creating this and learning a lot on the way. All the additions I have specified I consider to be of value to produce a model comparable to modern off the shelf standards.

 

 

While some may consider £53 reasonable for this model with a little compromise it should be possible to reduce the cost further. For example

 

1. Compromise on appearance. Of all the detail parts the biggest single cost are flush glazing and etched frames. Reusing the windows and keep the existing frame mouldings will bring the overall cost down to £35 based on the Dapol BSO.

2. If you can find a cheap new Hornby BSO you should not need to replace wheels or bogies, a total £6.75 saving, and if the windows and frames are accepted, saves a further £18. This brings the overall cost down but with some compromise on the window and frame appearance.

 

Jonathan

[MJI]

Airfix bogies are not too bad really, a bit better than Lima B4, lot better than late B4 on Hornby Mk 2.

 

Is the PH designs kit worth having?

[ianmacc]

Just a quickie. Are the Hornby R8096 wheels a direct swap for the jouef wheels on the mk3s as I have found sourcing a suitable replacement for the old overscale and prone to failure original wheel sets a challenge?

[jono26]

Is the PH designs kit worth having?

I found it useful for the window template, light surrounds, horn grill and deflector/cow catcher and as I was planning on making more than one DBSO I figured this would be a useful starting point. It is for a Network rail DBSO so some parts are not usable such as the front window frames. If it is cost effective to produce I think PH Designs should consider a follow on etch which excludes the template and also offer flat front window frames as per ScotRail DBSO. I will post more on my second DBSO build later this week and explain how I built my own deflector/cow catcher

 

Just a quickie. Are the Hornby R8096 wheels a direct swap for the jouef wheels on the mk3s as I have found sourcing a suitable replacement for the old overscale and prone to failure original wheel sets a challenge?

The Hornby wheels are 12mm and correct for a Mk3a however the axle on the Jouef Mk3a is shorter therefore the Hornby axle will not fit. In post #1 I explained how I used a DCC concepts bearing reamer to open up/deepen the bearing in the bogie frames (very simple process) so I could fit the Hornby wheels . Alternatively Alan Gibson does a shorter axle on request with the 12mm coach wheels pre fitted with brake discs

 

Hope this helps

Jonathan

[jono26]

Thanks to feedback from Bob in post 20 I had missed a box off the DBSO under frame. This is not fitted on the Mk2F BSO and was added only to the DBSO conversion hence I missed this as I was referencing detail and measurements from higher resolution BSO pictures as I could not find many good DBSO under frame shots.
I made this from 1mm plasticard made into a box 5mm deep

 

 

[jono26]

DBSO 2 - an alternative cheaper build

I decided during the previous build that I would follow up with a second build to see if I could produce a cheaper alternative without significant compromise to the appearance. In this case I decided to omit the 2 largest cost items, flush glazing and etched frames. The DBSO is a popular conversion project but spending over £50 is not in everyones budget especially when you need more than one as I do.

Having done some homework and armed with my knowledge of the Dapol BSO I figured that using a recent release Hornby Mk2d BSO R4563 I could use the existing bogies and wheels and the passenger compartment and toilet windows. After a little time and patience, I purchased a new coach online for £15 including post.

For my own reference I decided to record the hours on this build which may also help put some perspective on the effort versus result.  

Other than laser glaze, etched frames and the deflector everything else on this build is a repeat of the previous build. Armed with the knowledge of 9707 conversion I found this build easier though I have taken my time and not rushed any of the steps or processes. The hardest part of the build was to work out how to make a realistic deflector/cow catcher. The previous DBSO was fitted with the brass etched PH designs deflector/cow catcher, however for this lower cost build I needed to make my own. In this case I used plasticard and approximate measurements from prototype pictures and the one fitted to the previous build. There are some awkward angles to work with, so I came up with a simple build process taking measurements at each stage. For those wanting to replicate this the diagram and pictures below may be of use. I built this over 3 nights waiting for glue to dry before proceeding to the next step.

Start with attaching part 1 to 2, I also made a support behind to keep this at right angles

After allowing glue to dry fit parts 3

Make 2 rear supports with angle to support part 4 and glue behind 2 and under 1, see picture on left and right hand diagram. Allow glue to dry

Fit part 4

Glue in parts 5 and once dry fit additional rear supports

 

This was glued in behind the buffer beam, I built this to fit exactly but suggest you check the fit before hand and adjust the position as necessary with plasticard strips.

 

Jonathan

 

 

 

 

[jono26]

Just remembered I have a comparison picture of the deflectors, the plastic one, (left) is the same size as the metal one, (centre) but looks different due to camera angle

 

For the rest of the second DBSO build I replaced the brake section windows for clear glass units hand cut from old Jouef mk3 windows and recycled the passenger compartment windows and toilet windows which had the old glue cleaned off and the glazing pushed into the frame as far as it would go, not quite flush but OK. I made the new horn grill from the steel mesh from an old cafetiere, easily enough to fit out a complete fleet of DBSO's.

All other work and level of detail was as per the previous model for a total cost of £34,

The budget version is the upper DBSO 9704 in the picture below

 

I recorded my time on the build just for interest. Most of the time is 30mins to 1 hour sessions as that is about all the time I have most evenings so I think if I had a full days sessions the build time would be more efficient and hence reduced build time.

Body works 39hrs

Underframe modifications 17hrs

Bogie detailing 9hrs

Total 65hrs

 

I learned a lot on these 2 builds and very tempted to have another go but I have a box of Mk2 coaches ready for the work bench to make up two rakes for ScotRail push pulls, well I do need something to go behind my second DBSO and the one from Bachmann that comes out of the box.

 

Jonathan

[jono26]

DBSO Lessons Learned

Laser glaze window - Check fit before gluing on the etched frames, these maybe tight so file out the opening as required to get a fit. Once the frames are fitted the glazing needs to be pushed in from the inside so if the fit is good then you reduce the risk of pushing off the frames. To further minimise disturbing the frames I used the flat end of some tweezers pushed hard up against the frames and coach body when inserting the glazing.

Dapol Mk2d BSO – Body dimensions, tumblehome is not correct meaning the front profile is not the same as prototype so be careful with measurements when fitting lights and horn grill.

Roof vents - The DBSO has one Roevac vent over the drivers cab. The Mk2d donner coach has two roevac vents at the toilet end where the Mk2f BSO on which the DBSO is based only has one. Remove the additional one and tidy up before fitting over the drivers cab. The resulting hole can be filled and sanded flush.

Decals - Use Replica railways no smoking window sign decals as these are designed to stick on the inside. The fox transfers appear to be a good representation/size for the original ScotRail branding though I think the BR arrows are a little thicker than actual.

Cab windows placement - Measure the drivers front windows from the gangway and reference prototype pictures as these are closer than the PH design template indicated. I found the front cab windows difficult to get right as the profile of the Dapol base model is not exactly right so measurements from prototype pictures do not transfer exactly.

Horn Grill - This was recessed into the body to reduce the obvious stuck on look which makes the grill look too thick. All prototype pictures I have seen show the grill up against the gangway, no yellow body work between them.

Underframe - It does not take a lot of work to get the underframe to look like a Mk2f configuration but the one component hard to scratch build is the Temperature Ltd fan unit. I used a modified fan from an old Lima coach which is OK for now but expensive if I was to write off the Lima coach for one fan unit. NB. Due to the DBSO prototype pictures I had and using pictures of a Mk2F BSO which is different I missed off a box unique to the DBSO. This is on the non-Fan side under where the pressure ventilation unit was removed.

Disc Brakes - I modelled a disc braked DBSO by adding Stenson models brake discs to the Hornby wheels. However, you will also need to add the air pipes and brake gear to the outer righthand bogies and remove the clasp brakes from the standard B4 bogies. Note DBSO 9711-13 are not disc braked.

Bogies - It is simpler and cheaper to replace the old Dapol bogies with Replica B4 bogies than the Bachmann B4 bogies

Painting – I primed the front of the coach in white as a base for the warning yellow which I brush painted on with 20% thinners in several coats. The result was OK but for the second DBSO I airbrush to get a more even finish.

Painting – spray the light grey first followed by dark grey as this avoids the need to mask over the etched frames and the light grey is best sprayed over a lighter undercoat/primer.

Painting – the boundary between dark and light grey on the body side should be approximately the same point as the blue to white ScotRail lining. This allows for a light sanding to remove any rough edge of paint where the masking tape was applied when spraying the dark grey.

Brass Handrail detailing - Fit the handrails, grab handles and door handles before glazing as the superglue may cause the windows to frost/become opaque.

Deflector - Scratch building a deflector/cow catcher is not as difficult as first thought, build in stages and allowing the glue to set before filing and sanding any rough edges. Also note the buckeye coupler is not fitted with cow catcher.