THE WESTERN REGION DIESEL HYDRAULICS - A Pictorial Observation

[Peter Kazmierczak]

We had a dead kingfisher under our tree once....cat assisted....

You must've had a big tree to fit an A4 pacific beneath it.....

[Tim Hall]

You must've had a big tree to fit an A4 pacific beneath it.....

 

Ta, da!

 

Back on topic, it is an interesting book, however. 

 

Although I've seen plenty of other photos of them in a similar state, it still fascinates me how shabby the paintwork got on a lot of these locos.

[robertcwp]

Finally saw one copy in WHSmith at Holborn Circus today.

[The Stationmaster]

Haresnape also refers to 'off-white trim', but also 'pale grey' in captions and that the colour actually varied. Neither the Railway Observer or Railway World commented on the window frames when covering introduction in 1961, emphasising instead the 'blending green'.  Lewis (referenced by Stationmaster) makes the point that the colour scheme was - by design - a repeat of that applied to the production Deltics. Was that 'off white', or something else?

 

Colour photos of the first members of the class do show very bright white frames, to my eyes at least. So as ever the only safe thing to do is find a photograph of what you want to model and follow that.

 

When the locos were new the colour did not vary at all - the window frames were a consistent shade and very obviously not white.   I saw almost all the Hymeks including examples from every batch within a few months of delivery and I saw many at close quarters including the first one to be repainted in overall blue with the original colour being used for the cab window frames.   Chris's description of it as 'duck egg blue'  is very much on the ball, as - in some respects - could be 'pale grey' for it is a difficult colour to describe and might well be differently perceived by different people.  But what was always very obvious, and is obvious in contemporaneous prototype photos including those taken on b&w film is that it was very definitely not white or even 'a shade of white'.

 

The window frames on the early class members were the same colour as on all the others but probably looked that bit more starkly contrasting with the rest of the front end because of the lack of a yellow panel. 

[Pteremy]

I associate 'duck egg blue' with airfix spitfires! Surely it wasn't that blue? There appears to be a (?)current BS version BS 16c33.

 

The many early colour photographs in 'Heyday of the Hymeks' cannot in my view be described as showing anything other than white or a shade of white. I've looked in a number of others books and magazines (including Robert's), colour and black and white - and - but for this thread - it would never have occurred to me that 'shade of white' was incorrect. So I question your use of 'obvious'.

 

But maybe this is just language. 'White with a hint of blue' would also be a (blueish) shade of white? And after all, there would be some logic in having a tint to the white, to 'blend' with the green. If the paint scheme is the same as applied to the Deltics I am surprised that the formal specification is not recorded somewhere.

 

Or maybe it was the nature of the paint, or interaction with the undercoat/primer?

 

Not sure what this means in modelling terms - but I suspect that an off white is going to be good enough in miniature form, as the subtlety probably doesn't scale. Particularly with weathering.

[lapford34102]

 

I associate 'duck egg blue' with airfix spitfires! Surely it wasn't that blue?

Quite! I have a vague and possibly incorrect recollection that the first few Brush Type 2's had a "blue" tinged window surround. Hornby's model of an early green one one certainly had surrounds with a blueish hue.

Stratten-Steven's British Rail Mainline Diesel Drawings book says white for the Hymek but curiously does not give a full BS no. which he does for practically every other colour in the book. This seems to have repeated in Lewis's Western Hydraulics book.

However Curtis's Hymek Dawn has a clear mention of Light Grey for the surrounds in the correspondence. Putting two and two together wonder if it was the same grey as used on Warship (and other classes) bodyside stripe. In that case it would be BS2660-5-058

You can find the shade here https://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS2660_colour_chart.asp but looks far too dark but that could be because of all sorts of reasons.

So I'm actually I'm none the wiser. I did get up close to them in BR days so if it is a grey, rather than some species of off-white then it's going to be a very very pale one.

I think I'll stick with white for my Hymeks as it looks right and if anyone complains I'll shout Scale Colour at them.

Stu

P.S. I've got two white cars on the drive from different manufacturers. I'm sure you can guess what comes next :-)

[The Stationmaster]

Quite! I have a vague and possibly incorrect recollection that the first few Brush Type 2's had a "blue" tinged window surround. Hornby's model of an early green one one certainly had surrounds with a blueish hue.

Stratten-Steven's British Rail Mainline Diesel Drawings book says white for the Hymek but curiously does not give a full BS no. which he does for practically every other colour in the book. This seems to have repeated in Lewis's Western Hydraulics book.

However Curtis's Hymek Dawn has a clear mention of Light Grey for the surrounds in the correspondence. Putting two and two together wonder if it was the same grey as used on Warship (and other classes) bodyside stripe. In that case it would be BS2660-5-058

You can find the shade here https://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS2660_colour_chart.asp but looks far too dark but that could be because of all sorts of reasons.

So I'm actually I'm none the wiser. I did get up close to them in BR days so if it is a grey, rather than some species of off-white then it's going to be a very very pale one.

I think I'll stick with white for my Hymeks as it looks right and if anyone complains I'll shout Scale Colour at them.

Stu

P.S. I've got two white cars on the drive from different manufacturers. I'm sure you can guess what comes next :-)

 

I would suspect not much different from the Swindon 'Warship' body stripe colour.  it was certainly never described as 'white' in any contemporaneous reporting when the locos were new and as both CJL and myself have already said (and we're both old enough to remember Hymeks when they were being newly delivered from Beyer Peacock) it very definitely was neither 'white' nor 'a shade of white' as even my b&w photos from that time show.  Have a look at my pictures in this thread and notice the difference between the white of digits in the 4 character headcode and the colour of the cab window surround and even more obviously the difference between the (almost off)white of the roof dome on the Pressed Steel SPC and the cab window framing of the Hymek standing right next to it.  And of course most of the colour pictures in the book which this thread is discussing also clearly shows the framing was not white.

 

Regrettably various manufacturers have over the years done modellers a disservice with their inadequate research and use of white instead of the correct shade for the can window framing and unfortunately there seem to be few of us who actually knew the locos who have been able to correct this resultant misunderstanding and acceptance of the model errors as fact.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66922-the-stationmaster-says-goodbye-to-steam-at-henley-on-thames/

[Covkid]

In the book it points out that the exhaust outlets on the class 42 Swindon locos were in the middle of the roof section,  saying that this 'explains' why they were not allowed under lines with catenary, such as the WCML. Is this true? there are several images of these locos at Crewe and even on China Clay trains through the Midlands. There are even incidences of them getting into the Merseyside area. Not meant as a criticism of this bookazine, which I enjoyed incidentally, just wondering if this was an official policy that was not always strictly adhered to...

 

I can't remember exactly where I got that from as it was some years ago, but it came from a good source. I think the problem was that the Class 42 exhausts tended to put muck onto the wiring rather more than other types with offset exhausts. It might well have been something that was not applied consistently or was not even a consistent policy, ie the situation changed over time. 

 

There was no maximum height difference between any of the D8XX locos and in all cases the maximum height was 0.25" below the the 13ft 1" maximum allowed on certain 25kv electrified sections south of Crewe.  As far as clearances were concerned D8XX, as a total group of locos were permitted to work into Crewe.  So there was definitely no overall clearance restriction variation between the sub-varieties of D8XX (5 different diagram numbers) and maximum height was in ant case measured with the roof ventilators open

 

If there had been a separate restriction due to exhaust positions (which strikes me as logical) it would almost inevitably have been covered by letter rather than any other way and hence not at all unlikely that it might have been unevenly applied as tended to be the case in such circumstances.

 

Never seen any definitive evidence of this but intention was definately for the NBL warships to work the diagrams to and from, and on the LMR and this included passenger, parcels, milk and freight work. When you consider they worked under the wires on a number of diagrams, perhaps someone very high up decided on the offset exhaust NBLs, but I wonder if it was merely a coincidence and might have more to do with the NBL locos being reputedly more troublesome. How many people would know the difference in exhaust ports between the locos anyway ?

 

Not sure how Western footplatemen felt about them but every single LM driver I have spoken to despised the warships. In one case the wife of a driver actually wrote to the Minister for Transport (possibly Barbara Castle) complaining that her husband was always coughing because of the fumes leaking into the cabs of them. Disaffectionately known as "drybollocks" instead of hydraulics.

[robertcwp]

Finally saw some copies on sale in my local WHSmith today but not with the magazines. They had several 'one-off' bookazines and similar publications on a different shelf, but nevertheless fairly prominent as I noticed them in passing whilst looking for, and failing to find, a Christmas present for a relative.

[Andy Y]

None of the Smith's my friend and I tried seemed to stock it. Book Law at Peterborough show did though and it's been a thoroughly enjoyable read Robert.

[The Stationmaster]

Finally saw some copies on sale in my local WHSmith today but not with the magazines. They had several 'one-off' bookazines and similar publications on a different shelf, but nevertheless fairly prominent as I noticed them in passing whilst looking for, and failing to find, a Christmas present for a relative.

 

It took some time to appear in our local branch and the last time I Iooked (nearly two weeks back) it had not appeared in the Reading branch of WHS so their stocking does seem rather patchy.  I haven't seem it at any branches at stations either.

[robertcwp]

It took some time to appear in our local branch and the last time I Iooked (nearly two weeks back) it had not appeared in the Reading branch of WHS so their stocking does seem rather patchy.  I haven't seem it at any branches at stations either.

I believe it will only be in high street branches, not stations.

[MikeParkin65]

Still hoping to see a copy in WHS Worcester - have looked in Hereford, Malvern  and Cheltenham in recent weeks too but yet to clap eyes on a copy. Any tip offs of local availability would be appreciated!

[robertcwp]

Still hoping to see a copy in WHS Worcester - have looked in Hereford, Malvern  and Cheltenham in recent weeks too but yet to clap eyes on a copy. Any tip offs of local availability would be appreciated!

You could order one online from the publishers.

[Phil Bullock]

Still hoping to see a copy in WHS Worcester - have looked in Hereford, Malvern  and Cheltenham in recent weeks too but yet to clap eyes on a copy. Any tip offs of local availability would be appreciated!

 

Havent seen anything down here Mike - Cheltenham or Gloucester - had to order on line

 

Sorry 

 

Phil

[kernowtim]

Got my copy from Camborne last weekend!

[walrus]

Two copies in WHS Woodbridge, Suffolk this afternoon....

[caradoc]

I believe it will only be in high street branches, not stations.

 

I've noticed this before with railway bookazines; You would think station bookstores would be the ideal place to sell such items !

[EddieB]

Railways Illustrated  have just announced a new publication "Hydraulic Legends". A 100 page special at £6.99.

 

 https://shop.keypublishing.com/product/View/productCode/SPECHYDRA/Hydraulic%20Legends

Interesting to see the inclusion of "industrials" - but is it more than two or three pages of "general" text?

 

 

To answer my own question, the “other” bookazine has nine pages devoted to industrial diesel hydraulics, that section being written by one of the IRS luminaries. Better than hoped for.

[jonny777]

You could order one online from the publishers.

 

 

 

That is what I did, and the bookazine is excellent. 

 

It is the first multi-hydraulic album I have purchased to have far more photos of Warships than Westerns. 

[Dan Griffin]

there was at least 3 copies in WHSmith Peterborough Tuesday

[robertcwp]

That is what I did, and the bookazine is excellent. 

 

It is the first multi-hydraulic album I have purchased to have far more photos of Warships than Westerns. 

Entirely deliberate. I tried to minimise the number of Western photos and include only a token one or two from their final year or so as there have been so many books on Westerns. Nothing against Westerns personally but as I have a stack of Warship slides, I thought they should have priority.

[Karhedron]

Never seen any definitive evidence of this but intention was definately for the NBL warships to work the diagrams to and from, and on the LMR and this included passenger, parcels, milk and freight work.

I have heard that when the WR acquired the Waterloo-Exeter route, the Swindon Warships were allocated to the depots on the route, presumably to keep the NBL locos free to work onto the LMR. Can anyone corroborate this?

[Pteremy]

For completeness, a few more comments on Hymek window surround colour.

 

In ‘Heyday of the Hydraulics’ Hugh Dady describes the original window surrounds (p39) as ‘…pale grey (looking almost white)’ and when applied to the later corporate blue livery as ‘off-white’. There is a similar contemporaneous description in the March 1962 ‘Modern Railways’: in the article ‘Design in 1961 – a Retrospect’, Brian Haresnape describes the colour (p192) as ‘greyish-white’.  And in the context of the use with corporate blue a short note in the February 1967 ‘Modern Railways’ (p107) describes the colour as ‘rail grey’. (Perhaps I should also mention that the Wikipedia entry for Hymeks describes the colour as ‘Ivory white’ (which would be white with a hint of yellow), but it is not clear what the primary source for this is.)

 

The most convincing photograph that I have found is on p12 of ‘Heyday of the Hymeks’. This is taken inside Cardiff Canton in May 1962, and the surrounds are clearly ‘greyer’ than the white of the overhead warning stickers.  Using that comparison as a guide it is possible to see a colour contrast - to some degree or other - in other photographs. But given the variation in other colour tones in the pictures, different lighting conditions, and different degrees of weathering, I would be reluctant to attribute a specific colour tint to it.

 

Unfortunately under normal viewing conditions and distances there are just as many photographs where the contrast is very subtle or non-existent. This includes early ex-works and publicity photographs, where the combination fresh gloss paint and strong lighting appears to produce a photographic ‘white out’. 

 

So it seems to me that the true colour must have been very difficult to capture. And as a result I have every sympathy with those authors/caption writers who, perhaps without the benefit of Chris and Stationmasters first hand experience, have emphasised different shades of ‘whiteness’ – rather than a specific colour tint.  

 

I note that the original design advice by Wilkes and Ashmore is in the national archives, so perhaps that contains a formal colour specification.

[brushman47544]

I have heard that when the WR acquired the Waterloo-Exeter route, the Swindon Warships were allocated to the depots on the route, presumably to keep the NBL locos free to work onto the LMR. Can anyone corroborate this?

My understanding is that the Southern Region depot W-E drivers only received traction training on the Swindon Class 42s, so they were allocated to the WR depots, such as Newton Abbot, that provided traction for the W-E line. Presumably the odd Class 43s known to have worked on the route were crewed by WR drivers. I would say that - rather than keeping the NBL locos free to work onto the LMR, casting a positive light on the situation - the objective was to keep the less reliable NBLs on the WR where they could be mollycoddled and kept a closer eye on to try and minimise failures.