Converting RTR steam locos to EM - just pull out the wheels?

[Penrhos1920]

So the thought of RTR EM track has got me thinking about converting to EM. But I've had my fingers burnt having been told converting RTR to P4 with drop-in conversions is easy - it is, but it requires very good track, much better than I can easily achieve.

 

The first locos I have to convert are Bachmann 56xx, 64xx & L&Y tanks and Hornby Grange. Has anyone converted these particular models? Did you use any special tools? The 64xx and L&Y tanks have shouldered axles so the axle through the driving wheel is only 2mm. Won't large wheels on small axles have a greater tendency to wobble?

[ullypug]

I haven't converted those particular models, but I know a few people who have successfully pulled out RTR wheels and run on EM track without any bother.

One extremely useful tool is a GW Models wheel puller, since this does not affect the quartering. Googling will bring up pictures. GW don't have an online presence but they do advertise in MRJ and attend the major 4mm fine scale shows.

[RexAshton]

Alan Gibson does conversion sets for many of the current RTR locos. Make sure you order the conversion set though rather than just the correct size driving wheel as the sets come with the correct diameter axles. Just pulling the existing wheels out won't really work as you'll end up with so much sideplay your locos are more likely to resemble waddling ducks rather than scale models.

[Pete the Elaner]

That puller be useful for 00. Most RTR has b2bs which are too narrow.

['CHARD]

Alan Gibson does conversion sets for many of the current RTR locos. Make sure you order the conversion set though rather than just the correct size driving wheel as the sets come with the correct diameter axles. Just pulling the existing wheels out won't really work as you'll end up with so much sideplay your locos are more likely to resemble waddling ducks rather than scale models.

 

Thanks for the info, the Alan Gibson catalogue (here: http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/ ) is a very useful starting point on this possible journey.  Not clear yet though that if I order a set of replacement wheelsets for a Bachmann Ivatt 4MT (to give one example) I would also need to order washers to prevent the sideplay.  Also, the thought of quartering/ adding of weights, and getting the crank set up exactly right doesn't actually thrill me.  I will seek out some helpful EM modellers at Warley and ask how they spread the wheels on some diesels: perhaps try it for myself.

[Penrhos1920]

Alan Gibson does conversion sets for many of the current RTR locos. Make sure you order the conversion set though rather than just the correct size driving wheel as the sets come with the correct diameter axles. Just pulling the existing wheels out won't really work as you'll end up with so much sideplay your locos are more likely to resemble waddling ducks rather than scale models.

My point, that I somehow missed making in the original post, is that "you only need to pull the wheels apart a little", paraphrased a bit, has been said on the EM track announcement topic. I find this hard to believe for steam locos, which is why I asked the initial question. I'm fine with having to add dummy frames or spacing washers, it's the stability of the original wheels on a now under length axle that worries me.

 

I'm stearing clear of AG wheels as I've had a few rust on me, most don't, but some do. RTR wheels don't rust.

[tanatvalley]

I have used Ultrascale conversions for 56XX, 64XX and Hornby Grange. I have had success pulling out wheels for diesels but not steam.

Edited November 13, 2018 by tanatvalley

[Izzy]

 

I have ‘pulled out’ quite a few RTR wheelsets when converting them to P4 - which also involves skimming them a bit in a lathe - so really they come right off the axles and then go back on again. Some need new axles, some don’t. I have just converted a new version Bachmann 03 and re-used the original shouldered axles. Yes, they now only sit on half the axle length they did before, but are still quite okay and concentric. Be aware that these shouldered axles are splined so the wheels stay put and don’t loose quartering, so don’t attempt twisting them on their axles. They have plastic centre bushes and the axles are an easy/gentle tap out of the wheels, so dropping the wheelsets out of the chassis and adjusting the btb this way using a vice will be easy.

 

The thing to watch for is whether the coupling rods hit the rear of steps etc when pulled out to a wider gauge ( this applies to diesel shunters as well as steam locos), and of course clear valve gear when this is also involved.

 

Izzy

[philsandy]

I would advise using longer axles rather than just pulling the wheels further apart off the original axles, as RexAshton (post #3) points out.

 

I have converted several steam locos to EM and the method I always use now is:

 

I keep the original wheels but reduce the wheel flange thickness by 0.2 - 0.3 mm, otherwise you could have problems running through pointwork. You can do this using  a good flat file placed on a table, place the wheel with the flange flat  on the file, and  rub up and down along the length of the file, checking the flange thickness with  a vernier.

Use the longer EMGS stepped axles ie. 3mm/2mm diameter and put spacers on the axles to take up the sideways slop, usually need to use two 1mm brass spacers on each axle.

[Jamie]

I've had mixed success. My experience is all LMS and BR types, but there will be similarities in the mechanisms.

 

Hornby wheels such as on Black 5, Brittania etc era models can work beautifully, even on original axles. Alternatively pull the wheels off and replace with steel rod cut to length. My Clan runs impeccably on its original wheels regauged.

 

Bachmann wheels that I have encountered (4MTT, Standard 4 Mogul, Ivatt 2), have an insulating bush at the centre. You're highly likely to pull the wheels off this rather than move the wheel assembly along the axle, is my experience. I have not been successful in reusing any Bachmann wheels, though others have managed it.

 

Chard: you won't get spacing washers in the AG packs, unless that has recently changed. EM Society sell them, or Peco fibre washers suit 3mm axles but are very thin. You also don't get balance weights for the wheels.

[davefrk]

Diesels are usually the easiest to regauge but I would always try to pull the wheels along the stub axle if possible rather than pull them out of the centre muff. I've done a few this way, the most recent was the Bachmann LMS 10000 which had wheels that were a good match for EM wheels. Some diesels have too thick a flange to run prefectly through EM points. The Bachmann Derby LW DMU was strange as the first one I did is fine through the points but the second one a few years later just doesn't like the points with a bit of a lurch going through, same model different wheel spec. A set of Ultrascales for that one eventually.

Steam locos on the other hand have a right mixture of wheel types, some have a really heavy flange which would cause no end of bother and others are very 'thick' so when you try to pull them out to EM the valvegear is liable to catch, 0-6-0s should be okay though some need the back of the loco steps shaving down a bit to clear the coupling rods.

To be honest I would always recommend changing steam loco wheels for proper EM wheels and as they are much thinner there would be a bit more clearance for coupling rods and slidebars. I've used Ultrascale, Gibson and Romfords/Markits, all can be got with smaller diameter axles though Romford/Markits only have the 3mm diameter.

Pickups too need to be altered though the way I do it it doesn't need too much tweeking, a 0.6 x 1mm long solid gold wire soldered to the phosphor bronze pickup works very well with steel wheels. Sounds expensive? Last time I bought it it was £65 per metre, that's enough for 1000 pickups or 166 average locos. Ebay have it by the 100mm for around £13. Don't go chopping it into little bits though, just solder the end of the wire onto the pickup and cut the wire close to the pickup.

Some of my locos were converted a while ago but still need the valvegear fitted, they were waiting on the correct coupling rods to be drawn up and etched as I just don't like the RTR coupling rods which are jointed on the crankpin, too much slop...

I'm going to fit the valvegear back onto my Ivatt Mucky Duck 4mt so I could post some pictures of the progress.

Another thing to watch is the Bachmann loco chassis block, on a few of mine which were like new, a 3mm axle was so sloppy that a standard 1/8th axle fitted perfectly so check first before ordering 3mm axles. The 2.5mm axle locos have been better eg. Bachmann 4F.

 

Dave.

[88D]

I have had success with straightforward pulling of the wheels with the 56xx, but the 64xx suffered with the narrowing of the axle. Haven’t tried pulling on the others, but shall be attempting this on the Grange. My recommendation is to try it out. If unsuccessful,you can buy conversion sets from EMGS or Alan Gibson. The easiest are the Ultrascale drop-ins, but more expensive and you will have to wait for them unless you find second-hand examples.

[88D]

My point, that I somehow missed making in the original post, is that "you only need to pull the wheels apart a little", paraphrased a bit, has been said on the EM track announcement topic. I find this hard to believe for steam locos, which is why I asked the initial question. I'm fine with having to add dummy frames or spacing washers, it's the stability of the original wheels on a now under length axle that worries me.

I'm stearing clear of AG wheels as I've had a few rust on me, most don't, but some do. RTR wheels don't rust.

Only me AG wheels bought yoinks ago rusted. I have had no problems with those younger than ten years or so.

[robert17649]

to date, l& y pug from Hornby or Dapol, I have succesfully re-gauged two by just pulling the wheels out to EM gauge.  The slide bar bit and connecting rod bosses need careful filing down. however the best bet with these is to use the ultrascale replacement wheelsets , which are a bit hard to come by and need a bit of patience to get.

 

Carefully widening the gauge on the Hornby LOTI( recent not original) give a fairly good runner.

 Just drop the wheel sets out and carefully drive the axles through to  the wider gauge , pressing the wheel sets  home in the vice with a decent b-t-b gauge, this works as well with the T(9In all cases you will need to trim the brake blocks a bit,  trial and error works.

 

There are "drop in" wheel sets available for a lot of RTR locos but they are not cheap and  the wait is long.

 

EMGS manuals provide a lot of info for re-guaging RTR models.

 

I have used Romford EM axles and wheels in many cases usually reliable.

 

Dont be afraid to use loctite to retain wheels.

 

The more recent RTR models have OK wheel profiles which will negotiate EM trck, as ever using compensation or suspension will save a lot of bother. Spacing washers to reduce but not eliminate sideplay really do help.

 

 

withall of that join the EMGS for a great deal of helpful info regarding regauging all sort of  RTR models.

[pete55]

No one has yet mentioned the conversion information on the Alan Gibson website under "downloads", then "RTR conversions".

 

There you will find illustrated step by step guides to converting a selection of locos, mainly steam.

[Penrhos1920]

I have had success with straightforward pulling of the wheels with the 56xx, but the 64xx suffered with the narrowing of the axle. Haven’t tried pulling on the others, but shall be attempting this on the Grange. My recommendation is to try it out. If unsuccessful,you can buy conversion sets from EMGS or Alan Gibson. The easiest are the Ultrascale drop-ins, but more expensive and you will have to wait for them unless you find second-hand examples.

I've started looking at the L&Y tank but I think it's a no go.

 

 

The footplate is cast metal and includes the inside of the side tanks. Effectively hugh metal splashes. The gap between the inside of the tanks is only 2mm greater than the outside dimension of the OO wheels.

[88D]

to date, l& y pug from Hornby or Dapol, I have succesfully re-gauged two by just pulling the wheels out to EM gauge.  The slide bar bit and connecting rod bosses need careful filing down. however the best bet with these is to use the ultrascale replacement wheelsets , which are a bit hard to come by and need a bit of patience to get.

 

Carefully widening the gauge on the Hornby LOTI( recent not original) give a fairly good runner.

 Just drop the wheel sets out and carefully drive the axles through to  the wider gauge , pressing the wheel sets  home in the vice with a decent b-t-b gauge, this works as well with the T(9In all cases you will need to trim the brake blocks a bit,  trial and error works.

 

There are "drop in" wheel sets available for a lot of RTR locos but they are not cheap and  the wait is long.

 

EMGS manuals provide a lot of info for re-guaging RTR models.

 

I have used Romford EM axles and wheels in many cases usually reliable.

 

Dont be afraid to use loctite to retain wheels.

 

The more recent RTR models have OK wheel profiles which will negotiate EM trck, as ever using compensation or suspension will save a lot of bother. Spacing washers to reduce but not eliminate sideplay really do help.

 

 

withall of that join the EMGS for a great deal of helpful info regarding regauging all sort of  RTR models.

Re the Pug, and other outside cylinder locos: an alternative to filing away the slide bar bosses,etc is to slice down the middle of the cylinder block saddle and separate outwards a little. I have done this with a Bachmann 45xx and has worked fine for years.

[pete55]

I've started looking at the L&Y tank but I think it's a no go.

 

IMG_0543.JPG

 

The footplate is cast metal and includes the inside of the side tanks. Effectively hugh metal splashes. The gap between the inside of the tanks is only 2mm greater than the outside dimension of the OO wheels.

 

The L&Y tank has been done to EM by myself, and I wrote it up for the L&Y Society magazine a couple or so years ago. (Sorry, cannot remember which issue number!)

As far as I recall, I used the Gibson M7 conversion pack (3mm axles) for the driving wheels. Yes they are a spoke out, and the prototypical M7 wheel diameter is wrong, but the Gibson M7 wheel is almost identical in outside diameter to the Bachmann original. Also, they are a slim wheel with little protruding boss. Providing you have no real sideplay in the wheelsets once in the chassis, there are no clearance issues. Yes, it's tight, but no surgery required to all that footplate metal.

 

Hope that is some encouragement!

Edited November 14, 2018 by pete55

[1466]

So the thought of RTR EM track has got me thinking about converting to EM. But I've had my fingers burnt having been told converting RTR to P4 with drop-in conversions is easy - it is, but it requires very good track, much better than I can easily achieve.

 

The first locos I have to convert are Bachmann 56xx, 64xx & L&Y tanks and Hornby Grange. Has anyone converted these particular models? Did you use any special tools? The 64xx and L&Y tanks have shouldered axles so the axle through the driving wheel is only 2mm. Won't large wheels on small axles have a greater tendency to wobble?

I have converted a 56xx and a Grange and in both cases used the excellent Ultrascale drop in wheel sets to EM gauge.  Both work well and the 56xx  is my best smooth and silky runner.

 

As to pulling out original wheels. I've done this on a Hornby 28xx (I took advice from the Cornwall Yard people).  It worked well.  I  took the wheel set out of the chassis and supported it in the "vee" of a piercing saw table. Then I  used a masonry nail to  gently tap the axle with a lightweight hammer.   After three taps, I felt the axle move and then gently tapped again until I could see movement of 1 mm each end.  I finessed the b to b with a  small vice and EM gauge Society back to back gauge. It needed spacers to take up the slack and I used Peco fibre washers with a segment cut out to slip over the axle ( thanks to Tim Shackleton for the tip).  The quartering didn't move or alter during my bodging.

I've also converted a Bachman 57xx with the same tools and techniques. It ran after a fashion but I eventually substituted an Ultrascale drop in conversion which has resulted in greatly improved running.

I've converted the powered bogie of a Dapol streamlined GWR railcar using a GW wheel puller and then finessed the b to b with an EM gauge Society back to back gauge.  This worked well and didn't need spacers. I wrote up the full conversion in the EM Gauge Society newsletter.

I think it is matter of "horses for courses" and recommend joining  the EM Gauge Society. My preferred course when I can afford and get them is to use Ultrascale drop in conversion sets, but I've used Hornby, Markits and Alan Gibson wheels to convert Airfix, Triang(!) and Bachman locos and diesel railcars.

Give it a try and good luck.

 

Give it  a try and good luck.

Ken

[dhjgreen]

The L&Y tank has been done to EM by myself, and I wrote it up for the L&Y Society magazine a couple or so years ago. (Sorry, cannot remember which issue number!)

As far as I recall, I used the Gibson M7 conversion pack (3mm axles) for the driving wheels. Yes they are a spoke out, and the prototypical M7 wheel diameter is wrong, but the Gibson M7 wheel is almost identical in outside diameter to the Bachmann original. Also, they are a slim wheel with little protruding boss. Providing you have no real sideplay in the wheelsets once in the chassis, there are no clearance issues. Yes, it's tight, but no surgery required to all that footplate metal.

 

Hope that is some encouragement!

I have done your conversion and very nice it is too. I especially liked the specification of the axle spacers to remove slop and keep the motion away from the splashers.

 

Edit: if Pete cannot find the article, I have a copy if anyone wants it.

Edited November 26, 2018 by dhjgreen

[pete55]

I have done your conversion and very nice it is too. I especially liked the specification of the axle spacers to remove slop and keep the motion away from the splashers.

 

Edit: if Pete cannot find the article, I have a copy if anyone wants it.

 

Thanks, good to know it was of use!

[Simon Moore]

On 14/11/2018 at 17:32, Penrhos1920 said:

I've started looking at the L&Y tank but I think it's a no go.

 

 

The footplate is cast metal and includes the inside of the side tanks. Effectively hugh metal splashes. The gap between the inside of the tanks is only 2mm greater than the outside dimension of the OO wheels.

 

I've converted plenty of locos to EM & the lyr radial is easy. 

You need a dremel, back to back gauge & a gw wheelpress. Just slowly grind out the wheel arches with the dremel & also the crankpins will need a arch making in the casting.

 

If you contact gw models they will sell you replacement pins for the press to use on 3mm axles. I have 2 press now as I lost a set of pins changing it up.