Anyone know the answers to these questions?

[Art Dent]

Okay, a couple of questions regarding the prototype railway that have been puzzling me for a while (one of them for years).

 

Qu.1 Why were TOAD brake vans called TOAD? Was this an acronym. I gather that they weren't restricted to the GWR as I recently came across a double-ended LNER TOAD E.

 

Qu.2 Why do modern diesels, DMUs and EMUs have day and night running lights and marker lights which switch? For example, the Class 66 'Sheds' have a total of seven lights at both ends.

 

Three 'Marker' lights, two headlights and two tail lights.

 

When running during the day, the central marker light and both lower marker lights are lit plus the left-hand headlight (when looking at the front of the loco).

 

At night-time, the central marker light stays lit as do the lower marker lights, but the headlight switches sides, so that the headlight is now on the right.

 

I know that this headlight is angled in such a way as to illuminate any trackside signage, but why not have both headlights on when running, regardless of whether it be day-time or night?

 

I know that in the yard, the headlight is not used - only the marker lights - but I don't understand why the headlight switches sides according to the time of day.

 

Hope the good folks of RMWeb-land can answer these.

 

Over to you ...

 

Art

[Mark Saunders]

Toad is the telegraph code for a freight brake van.

 

Loco headlights and marker lights, this has developed over the years as the high level marker light is more recent with day headlights being brighter and the night not so but according to legend allows signs in the chess to be better illuminated!

 

Currently the new builds or those replaced have both headlights illuminated together but with a dim or bright setting.

[Art Dent]

Toad is the telegraph code for a freight brake van.

 

Loco headlights and marker lights, this has developed over the years as the high level marker light is more recent with day headlights being brighter and the night not so but according to legend allows signs in the chess to be better illuminated!

 

Currently the new builds or those replaced have both headlights illuminated together but with a dim or bright setting.

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for those replies.

 

I knew that TOAD was the telegraph code for a freight brake van - but why TOAD?

 

Was it simply a random name like SIPHON, MINK and MOGO?

 

Regarding my second question, I'm looking for the reason why the headlight was swapped over from day-time running to night-time running.  

 

To me it makes no sense as I would have thought anything that makes the loco more visible would be advantageous.

 

In a similar vein, I'm puzzled about modern cars and their 'Daytime Running Lights' which are usually LEDs.  Why are the dipped headlights or LED lights on at the front but there are no lights showing to the rear??

 

Art

[Pete the Elaner]

 

Regarding my second question, I'm looking for the reason why the headlight was swapped over from day-time running to night-time running.  

 

 

In a similar vein, I'm puzzled about modern cars and their 'Daytime Running Lights' which are usually LEDs.  Why are the dipped headlights or LED lights on at the front but there are no lights showing to the rear??

 

Art

I read that it was something to do with avoiding dazzling oncoming drivers, but that makes no sense at all to me.

 

Daytime running lights for road vehicles make no sense either. In Sweden, all cars must have sidelights on at all times (which is why Volvos do), but this turns on the rears too. I can understand that.

But can you really see a car in broad daylight better when it has sidelights on? I doubt it. If the sun is in your eyes, you will at best see a silhouette.

Yellow cars are far more visible than a dark car with lights on but on the railway, yellow warning panels have just been removed from requirements as long as lights are up to standard. That must be one of the most backward steps I have ever heard.

[BR60103]

I understand that the reason for the odd names of the wagons was to avoid confusion with possible cargoes. 

[Ncarter2]

 

Yellow cars are far more visible than a dark car with lights on but on the railway, yellow warning panels have just been removed from requirements as long as lights are up to standard. That must be one of the most backward steps I have ever heard.

 

Actually not. Being someone who is out on the track almost every day in all weather, high intensity headlights identify an approaching train further away than yellow warning panels.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I understand that the reason for the odd names of the wagons was to avoid confusion with possible cargoes. 

 Given that the telegraphic wagon codes included such as Ballast, Banana, Bar, Bell, Brick, Cask, Egg, Fruit, and so on; to carry the very items described, I don't feel that is the correct explanation.

[Fat Controller]

I understand that the reason for the odd names of the wagons was to avoid confusion with possible cargoes. 

More to avoid confusion with anything, not just possible loads. If you sent a telegram saying 'Macaw, Port Talbot, Soonest', you would not expect a brightly coloured bird to be despatched.

The codes (which carried on, and were expanded in BR days) covered not just vehicle types, but special working instructions indicating specific routeing instructions, for example. The idea is to send the maximum of information, in the shortest possible form, and in the clearest manner (at least to the trained user) possible. Sending messages by telegram was a lengthy, and expensive, business, so keeping it short was vital.

My favourite use of 'short-form' messaging was not railway, but military, dating from the days of the North-West Frontier and 'the great Game', where the Russians were following British activities very closely. When his goal had been reached,  General Napier sent a one-word message indicating his achievement, to Delhi. The word- 'Peccavi'- was the Latin for 'I have Sinned'; both the name of the objective (Sind), and an admission that he'd gone beyond his orders. The logic was that, whilst the Russians and their agents might have some English, their Latin probably stopped with 'Amo, Amas, Amat'

[The Johnster]

But what if you wanted a brightly coloured bird at Port Talbot and got a bogie well wagon instead?  How would it fit in the cage?  Port Talbot is a grim and dull place which needs brightening up with tropical birds more than most places; we demand answers, now, heads must roll...

 

Ok nurse, I'll take the nice pills now.

[berwicksfinest]

Regard in the headlights as per Class 66s

 

When I was trained on them, we were told basically because during daylight hours the lights are opposite side to the driver to aid being seen from distance by lineside staff. in the hours of darkness the driver would need more illumination cess side for things like TSRs which are reflective as opposed to lit. 

 

Plus you have the added benefit of if the headlight fails you have a second (spare) to carry on at train speed. rather than the restrictive 20mph with no headlight.

[AberdeenBill]

It's interesting that the GWR and LNER had the same telegraphic code of Toad for a brake van, which was perpetrated in BR days (although not branded onto the vehicle).   I wonder what did the SR and LMS called their brake vans?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[raymw]

wrt car running lights, It shows it is coming towards you, most likely more important than knowing it's going away from you. if you're behind it, then you'd be far enough behind not to worry about daytime lights, I guess.

[31A]

It's interesting that the GWR and LNER had the same telegraphic code of Toad for a brake van, which was perpetrated in BR days (although not branded onto the vehicle).   I wonder what did the SR and LMS called their brake vans?

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

 

Presumably also Toad, at least in telegraphic communications as the same codes applied to all the railways?  In fact I think the codes were prescribed by the Railway Clearing House.

[Co-tr-Paul]

're lights, both car and loco, EU regs.....!!

 

Hides away..... !

Edited November 17, 2018 by Co-tr-Paul

[jim.snowdon]

're lights, both car and loco, EU regs.....!!

Hides away..... !

In which we will have had our involvement. Besides which, there is a long history of pan-European railway cooperation, long before the Interoperability Regulations.

 

Jim

[Art Dent]

Regard in the headlights as per Class 66s

 

When I was trained on them, we were told basically because during daylight hours the lights are opposite side to the driver to aid being seen from distance by lineside staff. in the hours of darkness the driver would need more illumination cess side for things like TSRs which are reflective as opposed to lit. 

 

Plus you have the added benefit of if the headlight fails you have a second (spare) to carry on at train speed. rather than the restrictive 20mph with no headlight.

 

 

@bewricksfinest,

 

Whilst I don't at all disagree that that is what you were told, it still doesn't make any sense to me.  Why was a single light deemed to be better than two?

 

Post no. 4 by Pete the Elaner suggests it was to avoid dazzling oncoming drivers - but surely that would be more of a problam at night (when admittedly the cess-side light is lit whilst the other isn't) but if the headlights were angled downwards (like the dipped headlights on a car) it would still illuminate the track and make the loco more visible, but it wouldn't dazzle on-coming drivers due to their height above the track.

 

You second point still applies regardless of whether one light or two are lit at all times (think car headlamps here).

 

Please don't think I'm 'having a go' at you, I'm not.  I'm just trying to see the logic of having one headlamp that swaps sides according to whether it was day-time or night rather than having both lamps lit regardless of the time of day.

 

I'm probably going to have to run with "well it made sense to somebody" when they made the rules.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Art

Edited November 18, 2018 by Art Dent

[Art Dent]

wrt car running lights, It shows it is coming towards you, most likely more important than knowing it's going away from you. if you're behind it, then you'd be far enough behind not to worry about daytime lights, I guess.

 

Unless the visibility is poor - eg rain/mist/fog.  It can be quite bright so that only the day-time running lights at the front are illuminated whilst the rears are not.  Granted, you shouldn't be travelling too fast and be able to stop in the distance you can see but ...

 

It has been very misty/foggy here this morning and a new Range Rover just went past me.  I noticed that there were no rear lights showing and he was soon lost in the gloom.  I bet the front day-time running lights were on however.

 

Art

[Mark Saunders]

Unless the visibility is poor - eg rain/mist/fog.  It can be quite bright so that only the day-time running lights at the front are illuminated whilst the rears are not.  Granted, you shouldn't be travelling too fast and be able to stop in the distance you can see but ...

 

It has been very misty/foggy here this morning and a new Range Rover just went past me.  I noticed that there were no rear lights showing and he was soon lost in the gloom.  I bet the front day-time running lights were on however.

 

Art

 

The mentality of Car drivers is that they have lights on at the front and do not realise that there is nothing behind them and I have seen many at night like this!

[stewartingram]

 

@bewricksfinest,

 

Whilst I don't at all disagree that that is what you were told, it still doesn't make any sense to me.  Why was a single light deemed to be better than two?

 

Post no. 4 by Pete the Elaner suggests it was to avoid dazzling oncoming drivers - but surely that would be more of a problam at night (when admittedly the cess-side light is lit whilst the other isn't) but if the headlights were angled downwards (like the dipped headlights on a car) it would still illuminate the track and make the loco more visible, but it wouldn't dazzle on-coming drivers due to their height above the track.

 

You second point still applies regardless of whether one light or two are lit at all times (think car headlamps here).

 

Please don't think I'm 'having a go' at you, I'm not.  I'm just trying to see the logic of having one headlamp that swaps sides according to whether it was day-time or night rather than having both lamps lit regardless of the time of day.

 

I'm probably going to have to run with "well it made sense to somebody" when they made the rules.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Art

 

When HSTs were new on the ECML (with headlights), I was standing on the down platform when one rolled in on the DS. An old lady near me said "Ah, this must be our train, he's got his left indicator on"…..

 

Stewart

[kevinlms]

The mentality of Car drivers is that they have lights on at the front and do not realise that there is nothing behind them and I have seen many at night like this!

In their defence, its next to impossible to tell from the driver's seat.

 

To me the fault is in the design, rather than the driver.

 

Personally, I usually drive with my headlights/tail lights on at all times. My last employer made this a standard, which I now continue.

 

There is one drawback, for which I got caught out once. The system leaves the lights on after turning the ignition off, to turn the lights off requires opening the drivers door too (or manually turning them off).

On that occasion, I didn't open the door when I answered the mobile - then 20 minutes later...

[Mark Saunders]

In their defence, its next to impossible to tell from the driver's seat.

 

To me the fault is in the design, rather than the driver.

 

 

It will probably take a few collisions and deaths to get it sorted out! 

[Il Grifone]

Running lights are an EU regulation (since 2010 IIRC) and come on automatically. These or dipped headlights are a requirement in most European countries. (Check before visiting!). British cars get them as its not worth not fitting them.

 

The telegraph codes were revised during WWII (1942 IIRC) and standardised betwen the four companies. I believe the lesser railways had different codes for wagons (and coaches) of their own.

 

If one really wanted a macaw (feathered variety), it would have been necessary to say so using a proper telegraph message. Presumably a request for a crocodile would need a long explanation...

[Fat Controller]

Running lights are an EU regulation (since 2010 IIRC) and come on automatically. These or dipped headlights are a requirement in most European countries. (Check before visiting!). British cars get them as its not worth not fitting them.

 

The telegraph codes were revised during WWII (1942 IIRC) and standardised betwen the four companies. I believe the lesser railways had different codes for wagons (and coaches) of their own.

 

If one really wanted a macaw (feathered variety), it would have been necessary to say so using a proper telegraph message. Presumably a request for a crocodile would need a long explanation...

And it really would not do to be impatient and ask for them to make it snappy....

[The Johnster]

Back in the day, the 1970s when I was a freight guard at Canton. thought was still being given to the visibility of oncoming trains to per.way staff and others on or about the running lines.  A good deal of success, measurable in lower casualty figures, had been achieved by the yellow ends of trains, and of course the adoption of hi viz clothing which prompted drivers to blow their horns at the wearers, who had to acknowledge that they'd heard the horn.  

 

Lighting on locomotives was still pretty 'traditional'; it had moved on from paraffin lamps but the marker lights and illuminated headcode panels were no brighter.  The traditional view, that the driver did not need to see ahead of the train at night because the track was fenced against trespass and stray animals and the signalling ensured a clear section as far as the next signal, still held and the view on a dark night was about the first dozen sleepers ahead of the loco; the rest was down to route knowledge and AWS.

 

But there were still an unacceptable amount of accidents (I worded that badly, in a way that suggests that there is an acceptable amount; the tragedy is that cost effectiveness studies are undertaken on exactly that basis) involving staff on or about the track at night or poor visibility who had not seen or heard the train coming.  It was thought, correctly in my view, that many of these accidents took place in places where there were plenty of other lights and the train lights simply didn't stand out against a background of either railway or urban environments.  Out in the country fastnesses after dark you could see a train coming from miles away on a clear night despite it only being lit by a couple of 15watt bulbs, but away from that environment things were different!

 

Practice overseas was looked at.  North American trains, fitted up for areas where the track is unfenced, have always had good headlights, and the 'Mars' light was considered very effective in highlighting an approaching train to staff on the ground.  The power twin 120s and 37s for the Central Wales line, which has unfenced sections, had already been fitted with Lucas car rallying floodlights; I don't know what they did in Scotland.  I rode in the cab of one of the 120s on a Bristol-Cardiff service once and we had the Lucas on in the Severn Tunnel, the only time I've ever seen it (you don't want to see how much water is coming in, trust me!).  There was, I recall, a proposal to fit all trains with a triangular formation of 3 car type headlights set to 'dipped', readily identifiable and only possibly mistaken for an approaching Honda Electra-Glide.  I thought this was a very good idea.

 

The HST made a big difference.  The concept changed overnight almost; it was now considered unreasonable to expect a driver to run at 125mph in the dark without seeing where he was going, and the trains were fitted with proper headlights.  What difference they made is debatable, but new stock since that time has always had proper headlights and everything else has been retrofitted.  Drivers are now expected to look where they are going in the dark, and trains are more visible than they were.  

 

I am not qualified to comment on whether this makes driving trains at night more or less stressful...

[The Johnster]

Running lights are an EU regulation (since 2010 IIRC) and come on automatically. These or dipped headlights are a requirement in most European countries. (Check before visiting!). British cars get them as its not worth not fitting them.

 

The telegraph codes were revised during WWII (1942 IIRC) and standardised betwen the four companies. I believe the lesser railways had different codes for wagons (and coaches) of their own.

 

If one really wanted a macaw (feathered variety), it would have been necessary to say so using a proper telegraph message. Presumably a request for a crocodile would need a long explanation...

And some re-assurance about the packaging...