LMS Beyer-Garratt 2-6-0 0-6-2 in N Gauge from Hattons Originals

[TomE]

9F is a good call. I had to rip out the Dapol mechanism and install a new motor to get mine to run as intended. 
 

 

Tom. 

[grahame]

On 13/10/2019 at 09:35, TomE said:

If Hatton’s wanted something that was going to fly off the shelves then a new Black 5 or Class 66 would surely have been better options. 

 

 

22 hours ago, Roy L S said:

. . .  picking another model of the Bachmann inventory after the 66 in 00 would not have made sense or helped mend any bridges.

 

 

I think that boat's been burnt and well and truly sunk now. But pitching another hat (class 66) in to the pretty small N gauge ring (market) where there are several already (Dapol and Farish are both still releasing class 66 models and there was the CJM version) probably wouldn't make much commercial sense.

 

[Steadfast]

Nope, but an RHTT set to run between 2 Farish or Dapol 66s, or 37s, or 47s ,or 57s, or 20s, or 56s, or... could have been a good first toe in the N scale market. All research done in 4mm, it's a complete short train and just about every single modern layout could justify one. Also, Network Rail models seem to sell well generally.

If the niche Better Garrett fails to sell well, I hope Hatton's don't take it as "N isn't interested"

 

Jo

[Les1952]

To really rub Bachmann's nose in it how about engaging the services of a certain Mr Albright and getting him to use the CT Elektronik circuit board the N Gauge Society are having developed for their Hunslet diesel and designing a J72 round it.

 

Do the model Bachmann say can't be done...….

 

Les

[Roy L S]

On 17/10/2019 at 21:58, Les1952 said:

To really rub Bachmann's nose in it how about engaging the services of a certain Mr Albright and getting him to use the CT Elektronik circuit board the N Gauge Society are having developed for their Hunslet diesel and designing a J72 round it.

 

Do the model Bachmann say can't be done...….

 

Les

 

Great idea Les, the J72 of all LNER tank locos is the one that had the longest life, from pre-Grouping and related liveries through to even having new builds after Nationalisation. Couple that to that a very wide distribution across the LNER network, exquisite liveries on some station pilots after nationalisation and one preserved. It is really hard to see which box it doesn't tick.

 

Dapol proved they could go tiny as regards a steam loco with the Terrier, and that was based around technology before coreless motors and smaller DCC circuitry came along and even that can be hard wired with a chip. So, I really do not see why the J72 is considered so technically challenging, especially if it had DCC on board using custom circuitry meaning no need to have a DCC socket and all associated gubbins. I would think with careful design the motor need not be in the boiler facing backwards (if that is considered to be the constraint) but in the cab/firebox/tanks facing forwards with the DCC circuitry in the cab/bunker area above/behind. OK no cab details, but I doubt anyone would realistically expect that.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Les1952]

On 19/10/2019 at 18:30, Roy L S said:

 

Great idea Les, the J72 of all LNER tank locos is the one that had the longest life, from pre-Grouping and related liveries through to even having new builds after Nationalisation. Couple that to that a very wide distribution across the LNER network, exquisite liveries on some station pilots after nationalisation and one preserved. It is really hard to see which box it doesn't tick.

 

Dapol proved they could go tiny as regards a steam loco with the Terrier, and that was based around technology before coreless motors and smaller DCC circuitry came along and even that can be hard wired with a chip. So, I really do not see why the J72 is considered so technically challenging, especially if it had DCC on board using custom circuitry meaning no need to have a DCC socket and all associated gubbins. I would think with careful design the motor need not be in the boiler facing backwards (if that is considered to be the constraint) but in the cab/firebox/tanks facing forwards with the DCC circuitry in the cab/bunker area above/behind. OK no cab details, but I doubt anyone would realistically expect that.

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

I think that Bachmann like Hornby suffer from the "not invented here" attitude and that the existing boards they use are just too big. To consider third party design is probably anathema to them...

 

Makes it more of an open goal for Hattons to follow the Garratt with....

 

Just a thought.

Les

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Les1952
adding relevance to topic....

[bingley hall]

Sorry I was looking for the Hattons Garratt thread, but I inadvertently stumbled on this one.

 

Do please carry on   

[Roy L S]

Ok, to bring this well and truly back on topic then.

 

I spoke to a very helpful chap on the Hattons Stand yesterday. I queried why no publicity for the Garratt was visible on the stand and asked where it is at. Apparently the answer is that the model is still at CAD stage and so far orders have been disappointing and so it has not progressed to tooling and proceeding further seems far from nailed on at present.

 

I queried why the choice of this model as their first in N and apparently the reasoning in part at least was because their 00 model had been their best seller to date.

 

According to this gentleman Hattons reckon N Gauge Market is 10-12% of 00, this is at odds with what Bachmann have said and I do wonder (suspect) this may reflect their experience currently without the Farish range to sell. Logically if people no longer visit the Hattons site to buy the Farish range then this model will not have the visibility it once would have so I cannot see how failing to promote the model visibly at Warley helps it's cause personally.

 

The same gentleman did say that this lack of take up didn't necessarily mean their minds were closed to further models in N but for this model the message seems clear, if you want an N Gauge Garratt RTR then there is a real chance it many not happen it without more pre-orders.
 

Roy

[TomE]

On 25/11/2019 at 13:21, Roy L S said:

According to this gentleman Hattons reckon N Gauge Market is 10-12% of 00, this is at odds with what Bachmann have said and I do wonder (suspect) this may reflect their experience currently without the Farish range to sell. Logically if people no longer visit the Hattons site to buy the Farish range then this model will not have the visibility it once would have so I cannot see how failing to promote the model visibly at Warley helps it's cause personally.

 

I found the lack of publicity for it at Warley very odd too Roy, and one has to wonder if given the lack of pre-orders they are now setting it up to fail. You can't sell what you don't advertise after all. I'm also certain that 10-12% figure is not representative of the overall ratio of N to OO and clearly Hatton's will have experienced a significant drop off in their N Gauge sales as a result of their dispute with Bachmann. N gauge modellers won't just disappear because Hatton's stop selling Farish items, they'll just go elsewhere to buy them. 

 

Chatting to the guys on the Bachmann stand, I asked about the general state of N Gauge and whether they felt they were seeing any change in that ratio which for them was still around the 20% mark. The feeling was that there was a slight increase but I also sensed a frustration that despite delivering a significant change in the quality of N gauge it was only slow growth, although I can't help but think their own production issues haven't helped there. You can't buy what's not on the shelves! 

 

My Garratt pre-order will remain and I do hope that it does go ahead, however I still think for a first dive into the N Gauge market it's too niche, and niche rarely seems to do as well in N as it does in OO. 

 

Tom.  

Edited November 26, 2019 by TomE

[Kaput]

Strikes me that they'd have been better shrink raying one of their OO items like the RHTT wagons or the Andrew Barclay instead of something as niche as a Garratt.

[AlfaZagato]

I've just submitted a pre-order.   I hope that enough trickles in for this to go live.

[Steadfast]

13 hours ago, Kaput said:

Strikes me that they'd have been better shrink raying one of their OO items like the RHTT wagons or the Andrew Barclay instead of something as niche as a Garratt.

Totally agree. I think the RHTT sets would sell fantastically in N, just need the locos and you have a complete train. Aided by the fact Dapol do dummy 66s too

 

Jo

[grahame]

On 26/11/2019 at 10:52, TomE said:

 

. . .  I still think for a first dive into the N Gauge market it's too niche, . . . 

 

 

On 14/10/2019 at 12:00, Steadfast said:

 

If the niche Better Garrett fails to sell well, . . . 

 

 

14 hours ago, Kaput said:

 . . . something as niche as a Garratt.

 

I'd guess that most proposed N gauge models can be considered 'niche', especially when ones takes in to account it's lifespan (era), locality used (geography) and even the livery and running numbers it is offered in, and then, of course, there's the 1:148 scale (a niche within the greater railway modelling market) as well as any number of other factors one cares to quote and throw at it (I've heard things like it's too big and trains too long).

 

Those model subjects that satisfy a larger sector have mostly been picked off so increasingly new products will be more niche. However, there are those for who things like era, colour and period are not a stumbling block and find it a pleasure to own any such N gauge model. Plus of course there are the collectors (sector of the market) who buy anything so long as it's mint and boxed.

 

Nonetheless, it's certainly a brave selection choice from Hatton's but it's what they have decided to go with as their first venture in to British N gauge. However, I wonder what research they undertook to help decide on that choice. N gauge is no longer included on the 'wish list poll' so they can't have referred to that. And, although the NGS only has around 6000 members, AFAIA they didn't consult them. So how was it picked? Was anyone involved in a marketing focus group about the choice?

 

 

 

 

[Steven B]

I'm suprised that Hattons choose the Garratt over other prototypes (loco and wagons), but I'm pleased they've decided to take the risk and produce one; I hope to add one to my small collection of ex LMS locos.

 

I do wonder at their commitment to the project if they didn't have anything on show for it at one of the biggest model railway shows in the country.

 

Steven B.

[GeoffAlan]

It does seem like half-hearted selling will kill this off. A shame as I have one on order. Earlier comments re the J72 are interesting, and while the N Gauge Society have had issues with their Hunslet electrics, I'm confident that not only will they appear (good news as I have two one pre-order) but that they'll be 'right'.

 

Seriously if a society can do this then Hattons should be able to replicate it in a J72, and as the Beyer-Garratt is so much bigger, the electronics should be far less of a challenge for them. I do hope Hattons get behind their initial enthusiasm and sell the B-G harder.

[grahame]

Unfortunately this project (the N gauge Beyer Garrett) does seem to be a little rudderless and in danger of failure. A lack of publication and promotion (for example that the specification now includes two motors hasn't been widely communicated and the lack of anything tangible at Warley) and I've not seen much in the way of press coverage (are update/progress press releases circulated?) or advertising (in Hattons multi-page adverts in the commercial model magazines I didn't notice any mention of the BG in N but saw plenty on their other OO projects) is worrying. Also the comments about the choice and speculation on various forum about what they should be producing instead probably doesn't help. It certainly won't inspire confidence to pre-order. That's if people are aware that they need to.

 

Now I've heard a rumour that there is an email going around saying that progress is unlikely without more pre-orders. It would be nice if that could be confirmed or refuted so that it can be ushered out of the room and doesn't become another stumbling block. 

[scottystitch]

From the email talked about above:

 

"In case you missed them, we have revealed initial CAD images for the N gauge Beyer Garratt locomotive. As with our other projects, we aim to produce the most accurate model as possible and we have worked hard to make sure these CAD images are up to the quality you would expect.

 

In order for the Beyer Garratt to progress, we need you to pre-order your locomotive as soon as possible. If you are interested in the project and would like to have the locomotive on your layout - now is the time to act! We cannot move the project along until a satisfactory number of pre-orders have been reached. 

 

Please note - we do not require payment up-front, only when the models are released. You will also receive project updates once we are able to go ahead. By pre-ordering you will help to make this project a reality." 

 

Best

 

Scott

[Roy L S]

12 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

 

Now I've heard a rumour that there is an email going around saying that progress is unlikely without more pre-orders. It would be nice if that could be confirmed or refuted so that it can be ushered out of the room and doesn't become another stumbling block. 

 

Hi Grahame

 

I have had the model on order since it was first announced at Warley last year. If there is such an e-mail, then I haven't received it (up to now anyway). 

 

I totally agree with your comments as regards lack of promotion, there is absolutely no sign of any tangible attempt to promote this model of late, and I do fear that the very heavily promoted (and invested) O Gauge A3/4 along with 00 66's are what have Hattons' full attention rather than any attempt to properly market this model. Indeed I would go as far as to ask what Hattons expect if they announce a model and then fail to promote it with the same drive and enthusiasm - it not proceeding surely becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if people do not know about it?

 

For me, rightly or wrongly it begs a simple question - is the lack of promotion a deliberate strategy to "kill" the project or will that just be the unintended consequence?

 

Roy

 

 

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

 

Hi Grahame

 

I have had the model on order since it was first announced at Warley last year. If there is such an e-mail, then I haven't received it (up to now anyway). 

 

I totally agree with your comments as regards lack of promotion, there is absolutely no sign of any tangible attempt to promote this model of late, and I do fear that the very heavily promoted (and invested) O Gauge A3/4 along with 00 66's are what have Hattons' full attention rather than any attempt to properly market this model. Indeed I would go as far as to ask what Hattons expect if they announce a model and then fail to promote it with the same drive and enthusiasm - it not proceeding surely becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if people do not know about it?

 

For me, rightly or wrongly it begs a simple question - is the lack of promotion a deliberate strategy to "kill" the project or will that just be the unintended consequence?

 

Roy

 

 

Or the A3/4, Gresley coaches and 66 are taking up all their attention - there is a lot of sunk cost in these models that needs repaying.

[Roy L S]

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Or the A3/4, Gresley coaches and 66 are taking up all their attention - there is a lot of sunk cost in these models that needs repaying.

Hi Woodenhead

 

Yes indeed, as I said, …"heavily promoted (and invested)"....

 

In which case why choose the time they did to announce and then subdue promotion of this N Gauge model?

 

Indeed now we are seeing the 00 gauge 66's and "Genesis" generic 00 coaches being promoted (Jan 20 RM - a page each) but you will search in vain over their entire seven pages of advertising for even a single line about the Garratt...

 

Roy

[woodenhead]

 

12 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Hi Woodenhead

 

Yes indeed, as I said, …"heavily promoted (and invested)"....

 

In which case why choose the time they did to announce and then subdue promotion of this N Gauge model?

 

Indeed now we are seeing the 00 gauge 66's and "Genesis" generic 00 coaches being promoted (Jan 20 RM - a page each) but you will search in vain over their entire seven pages of advertising for even a single line about the Garratt...

 

Roy

Kernow can take a similar approach, slow burn on some items, others go at a faster pace.

 

Hattons have clearly identified a big market for generic coaches and have got in quickly, perhaps Hornby have something planned for 2020 or someone else is doing something less generic but for Hattons it is a case of getting in early to steal a march on the competition that is coming.

 

N gauge doesn't have that immediacy, there is no-one about to come in with another similar N gauge Garratt, looking on Ebay I would say N gauge prices are deflated at present and the focus of new entrants has been on modern trains over steam with only Sonic looking at a simple N gauge tank.

 

KRModels might be offering the Fell in N, but it didn't get sufficient orders for GT3 so it may go the same way for the Fell.

 

I've boxes and boxes of N gauge trains I don't know what to do with - I struggled to sell some of my locos a couple of years back at what I believed were fair prices for hardly used engines, i don't think the market has improved much if at all since then.

 

Hattons haven't cancelled it but it might be sometime before it rises up the order.

[grahame]

48 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

" . . . . In order for the Beyer Garratt to progress, we need you to pre-order your locomotive as soon as possible. If you are interested in the project and would like to have the locomotive on your layout - now is the time to act! We cannot move the project along until a satisfactory number of pre-orders have been reached. 

 

Please note - we do not require payment up-front, only when the models are released. You will also receive project updates once we are able to go ahead. By pre-ordering you will help to make this project a reality." 

 

 

Oh dear, seems the rumour is true and a little concerning. It sounds like it will only proceed if there are sufficient pre-orders. I hope this is made known to the wider N gauge community rather than just an email circulation list. Perhaps some mention in the Hattons adverts and a press release to all the magazines including the NGS Journal.

 

12 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Yes indeed, as I said, …"heavily promoted (and invested)"....

 

In which case why choose the time they did to announce and then subdue promotion of this N Gauge model?

 

Indeed now we are seeing the 00 gauge 66's and "Genesis" generic 00 coaches being promoted (Jan 20 RM - a page each) but you will search in vain over their entire seven pages of advertising for even a single line about the Garratt...

 

 

Yep, and wasn't the N B-G announced (November last year) before the Genesis generic OO coaches (October but not sure of year) or perhaps maybe not. But they're certainly getting a big promotional push ATM.

 

It does seem that there is a need for raising the N B-G project profile - even that Hatton's are planning a N gauge RTR model, what it is and the specification. Plus the fact that pre-orders are required for it to go-ahead.

 

 

[Roy L S]

Kernow's models are crowdfunded so I am not sure the same considerations apply?

 

I disagree about the modern focus, based on facts as we know them, the following new tool powered models are either recently released or in the pipeline and it is about even-stevens: -

 

Steam - Farish - Castle, C Class, 8F. Sonic 56xx. Dapol, BoB/West Country.

 

Diesel/Electric - Farish Class 40, Class 158, Class 319. Dapol Class 68, Class 50, RevolutioN 321.

 

I do not question the comparative commercial considerations of the various competing projects, and I take on board your point about immediacy and urgency, but it just seems to me to be completely disingenuous to say the Garratt isn't achieving the numbers when there seems to be zero effort to visibly promote it.

 

Best wishes

 

Roy

 

 

[grahame]

11 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

I've boxes and boxes of N gauge trains I don't know what to do with - I struggled to sell some of my locos a couple of years back at what I believed were fair prices for hardly used engines, i don't think the market has improved much if at all since then.

 

 

You could build a layout to accommodate and use your N gauge trains on 

 

The N gauge market is smaller and it will stagnate without investment, new products and effective promotion. For it to grow it needs greater exposure, promotional support and a decent range of innovative new products (possibly even including the N B-G), and people to build and showcase great quality N gauge layouts. Being a small sector of the overall model railway market, N gauge needs to be more agile, more responsive and quicker to develop and launch new product. And that doesn't exclude N enthusiasts playing their part.

 

 

[grahame]

13 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Kernow's models are crowdfunded so I am not sure the same considerations apply?

 

I disagree about the modern focus, based on facts as we know them, the following new tool powered models are either recently released or in the pipeline and it is about even-stevens: -

 

Steam - Farish - Castle, C Class, 8F. Sonic 56xx. Dapol, BoB/West Country.

 

Diesel/Electric - Farish Class 40, Class 158, Class 319. Dapol Class 68, Class 50, RevolutioN 321.

 

 

You've missed the Dapol class 33, Farish class 70 with revised air intakes and the Revolution class 92. But, to be quite honest, this issue (about the Hatton B-G and the overall N guage market) has little to do with steam and D&E genres. Both are well supported and both contribute to the N guage market size.