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Limoges Angouleme Disruption


Foulounoux
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Removing this from the state of the U.K. Thread

 

The Limoges Angouleme route remains oou and has now even made Le Monde

The original Le Monde article is behind a registration but has been reported separately in a French Railway Facebook group

 

https://www.facebook.com/1572451196322528/posts/2263573447210296/

 

Colin

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Very interesting Colin, thank you. It puts a different perspective on the problem.

 

I wonder how far they will get with having 120m euros transferred from a capital budget (the barely likely Saintes electrification scheme) to what is in effect a maintenance cost, to re-instate the Limoges route? It will require a degree of flexibility of thinking and accounting that I have rarely seen in France, and even less in the UK (outside the personal accounts of certain company directors).....

 

The real answer must surely come from central govt directing SNCF Reseau to get on with it (having declared they are now likely to write off almost all of their existing debt)? I am surprised the author of this article does not even broach that.

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Mike

I think the other problem is that it is quite feasible to have a replacement bus service especially now the RN141 is dual for most of the route

 

I could see a series of buses some dealing with local connections

Limoges -St Junien

St Junien - Roumazieres

 

And a faster Limoges-Roumazieres-Chassenuil-La Rochefocauld-Angouleme service

 

The loading on the route is that low that coaches maybe seen as the most effective option

 

The precedent it would set though maybe too much for the region to accept

 

Colin

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Mike

I think the other problem is that it is quite feasible to have a replacement bus service especially now the RN141 is dual for most of the route

 

I could see a series of buses some dealing with local connections

Limoges -St Junien

St Junien - Roumazieres

 

And a faster Limoges-Roumazieres-Chassenuil-La Rochefocauld-Angouleme service

 

The loading on the route is that low that coaches maybe seen as the most effective option

 

The precedent it would set though maybe too much for the region to accept

 

Colin

 

I would have agreed with the likelihood of bus substitution if the two Departements had not been merged into the Noveau Aquitaine region (much the same happened to my local line when I lived in the Creuse, over 6 years ago, but then RFF upgraded the entire secondary line), as they could have blamed each other.

 

But now that Aquitaine has total responsibility (and presumably funding, if not now then soon) they will need a better excuse. Low patronage does not avoid the fact that the vast bulk of wear and tear will be down to the heavy freight services that (should) use the line - I think at least two private sidings still have access at one end? Thus Track Access charges will fall even more heavily on to the freight operations, something which SNCF Reseau has been told to cut, in view of the impending Open Access regime due in 2020.

 

You may be right about the bridge replacement delaying any further work, but whether this is a convenient excuse to delay any decision, or a realistic re-programming of the remaining works, remains to be seen. Given past shenanigans, I would not bet the farm on it.

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It’s a sad fact that the SNCF appear to be running these lines down. You look at how the TER is funded and the fact that they are rewarded for providing the lowest cost service and you can see why bus services are proving more popular in the country.

 

I have also read in a number of places that the new government organisation is not pro rail. To me that reads as if they will not fund improvements to these rural lines. Unless central government steps in and recognises the value ahead of the cost I don’t see many of these lightly used lines being kept if the cost of them remaining open outweighs their current use. I hope the situation changes but we will have to wait and see.

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It’s a sad fact that the SNCF appear to be running these lines down. You look at how the TER is funded and the fact that they are rewarded for providing the lowest cost service and you can see why bus services are proving more popular in the country.

 

I have also read in a number of places that the new government organisation is not pro rail. To me that reads as if they will not fund improvements to these rural lines. Unless central government steps in and recognises the value ahead of the cost I don’t see many of these lightly used lines being kept if the cost of them remaining open outweighs their current use. I hope the situation changes but we will have to wait and see.

 

That has all been true, although I think there is wide variety in the new Regions' enthusiasm for rail. For example, many of them have now funded massive replacement programmes for new DMU's/EMU's, continuing the orders already placed under the previous regime. The Inter-Regionals remain a battle ground for funding responsibility, and the State has picked up the bill for the moment, after some major cuts to through services.

 

But the major battle ground is between the Regions, who want to be able to use someone other than SNCF to maintain/renew local routes (which they believe will be a lot cheaper and predictable) and SNCF Reseau who insist that common standards can only be applied by them (and don't want to lose the track access income). The govt has put off, yet again (unless I have missed something recently) making a decision about this, and it may help to explain why lines like Limoges-Angouleme remain in limbo.

 

These decisions will be needed soon, as Open Access is supposed to kick in from 2020, after several false starts on trials, when private passenger companies will not put up with this kind of messing about, much as private freight companies are kicking up now.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Charente Libre today

 

Not good

 

http://www.charentelibre.fr/2018/12/13/un-heurtoir-en-travers-de-la-ligne-sncf-angouleme-limoges,3358683.php

 

Use grosse soixantaine d'élus de Charente limousine et de Haute-Vienne se sont retrouvés ce jeudi matin en gare de Saillat-Chassenon, où des traverses en croix barrent la voie ferroviaire. Signe pour eux de" la mort annoncée" de la ligne SNCF Angoulême - Limoges.

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Charente Libre today

 

Not good

 

http://www.charentelibre.fr/2018/12/13/un-heurtoir-en-travers-de-la-ligne-sncf-angouleme-limoges,3358683.php

 

Use grosse soixantaine d'élus de Charente limousine et de Haute-Vienne se sont retrouvés ce jeudi matin en gare de Saillat-Chassenon, où des traverses en croix barrent la voie ferroviaire. Signe pour eux de" la mort annoncée" de la ligne SNCF Angoulême - Limoges.

 

I am not clear why the placing of rails across a line which will presumably be under blockade when (or if) they do complete the works to re-instate the line, is being interpreted as such a "final" act? How is it different from the placing of sleepers across the line during T3's in the UK? I have seen lines closed before that did not have this kind of barricade placed at the ends, so its significance is unclear. I also note that no response appears to have been sought from SNCF by the news site. Have I read it right when they say that SNCF had said, just three weeks ago, that they would meet them again in January/February to talk about what works were being planned? Smacks a little of Gilets Jaunes opportunism to me?

 

The French Transport Minister has announced an extra 5 billion euros annual fund for routes just like this (plus the cancellation of almost all of SNCF's debt announced previously), so it all seems a bit previous. We shall see.

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  • 1 month later...
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I do hope that they get this sorted soon.  Myself and a friend are wanting to spend a day doing the triangle of lines from our local station (Ruffec) to Angouleme, Limoges and Poitiers then back to Ruffec.

 

Jamie

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Off topic but this has been up forsale for more than 2 years, first appeared in Railnews back in Nov 2016 . When I went for week nearby the TGV's still ran past the place but that was obviously coming to an end.

 http://www.frenchestateagents.com/french-property-for-sale/view/82959FWE86/house-for-sale-in-st-saviol-vienne-poitou-charentes-france

Interestingly the Railnews ad was a private sale at £39k, time for a really cheeky offer?

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On 13/02/2019 at 21:33, w124bob said:

Off topic but this has been up forsale for more than 2 years, first appeared in Railnews back in Nov 2016 . When I went for week nearby the TGV's still ran past the place but that was obviously coming to an end.

 http://www.frenchestateagents.com/french-property-for-sale/view/82959FWE86/house-for-sale-in-st-saviol-vienne-poitou-charentes-france

Interestingly the Railnews ad was a private sale at £39k, time for a really cheeky offer?

 

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The market here is all over the place. It is normal here to make an offer at 90% of the asking price. Some agents report higher sales than average (many Brits trying to beat the Brexit deadline), others report a suppressed market. I know St Saviol a bit, having driven that road many times over the past six years. Decent area but weather is a little variable. A lot of Brits already there, especially in neighbouring towns/villages, because prices are significantly cheaper than in neighbouring Charente Maritime (and there is a reason for that). Locally here, about 40Km from that location, asking prices have held over the past several years, but of course, few people know what the eventual selling prices have been.

 

This particular house, being an old crossing keeper's cottage, should attract a premium, and has been renovated well (if the pics don't lie), but it has no CH, which is a drawback there (wood prices have doubled in the last 10 years), and nothing is mentioned about the sewerage - check that, as otherwise you could end up with a 8,000 euros extra bill within 12 months (theoretically, although often not enforced). It is a small floor surface area, no pics of any "bathroom", and I doubt would be suitable for more than a holiday home, unless you are happy with a small house, but the garden looks large for a holiday home. Most "homers" end up paying someone to tend their gardens, if of this size, to avoid spending most of their holiday putting it right.

 

 

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Agree with Mike.  I don't know the area but it is probably significantly over-priced.  There are a lot of cheap properties around in France - mainly small, often rather isolated and generally in areas not wanted by the local populace - poor services, few jobs, poor location etc..

 

OTOH there are many properties that are far from cheap and well overpriced in areas that are holiday magnets - Provence immediately springs to mind.

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From watching sales in our village (about 5 miles from Mike) what often seems to happen is that properties are listed in different platforms at different prices.  One near us has only sold after being dropped by about 30%.   Others which are not being dropped, mainly by expats, are not selling.   It is a strange market at the moment. I certainly haven't found a French equivalent of Zoopla to find out what the actual sale price is.

 

Jamie

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After a day's trainspotting at Angouleme my mate and I stumbled across 2 lines of withdrawn locos outside a scrapyard just north of Angouleme.  Some exploring revealed that this is a steeply graded spur off the Limoges line about a mile north of the station.  I managed to get this shot of the line from a bridge we went over.

P4034087.JPG.51eab12859f676703bf35e3cbe9817c9.JPG

It obviously hasn't been used for a while.  The scrapyard lead is off to the right.  I have no idea what the old line to the left served.   From Google Earth there is a rail served industrial estate just south of where we were, also accessed off the Limoges line.   The scrapyard is right by a big Leclerc's and the withdrawn locos are next to their click and collect unit.  

P4034089.JPG.ad92def4c4d5beabffa9ebba759fa61e.JPGP4034090.JPG.18760c62a7359bf740e8713711d02020.JPG

 

Jamie

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  • 3 months later...

Just got back from that area, a mate lives within a spit of the line near Chasseneuil.

 

His local missive from his Mairie gives the line disruption as being due to a new bridge works for the N147 dualling.

Certainly, areas I saw have new ballast and some renewed level crossings

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I've heard from a mate who lives in Charente that some funding for the bridge has been agreed but as far as he knows it will only allow lightweight trains to be used and no provision for freight.

 

Jamie

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The RN141 work is at Roumazieres needs a rail over road bridge

we were supposed to be over in July but had to cancel due to wife being critically ill so I haven't been to see how far they have got with it 

 

but I would that was funded as part of the project 

 

i cant think where else there needs to be a bridge. The one at Chassenuil is already there and I thought part of the existing dual carriageway 

 

colin

 

 

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From what my friend has said it us the bridge on the Roumaziers bypass that has caused the problem. I can't remember all the details but as far as I know Roumaziers campaigned hard for the bypass but the fundi g, when it cam, didn't contain fundi g for the rail bridge. The various fu ding bodies have been arguing ever since.  SNCF obviously want to close the line. So the bus substitutions have continued.

 

Jamie

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According to this report, last month, construction of the rail bridge is about to start. It says the whole scheme was (further) delayed by problems with compulsory purchase for the by-pass, and is now "officially" 8 months late. Although other reports suggest the real delay is a whole lot more than that, since the original plans were published.

 

https://www.charentelibre.fr/2019/06/05/deviation-de-la-rn141-les-travaux-du-pont-rail-avancent-a-grand-pas,3440991.php

 

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I'm visiting the family this week (who live in Grand Madieu). We visited the Gond Pontouvre retail park (mainly because there's a very good beer warehouse there). Infer scrap merchants are still taking in locomotives from SNCF, there were 2 rows awaiting disposal , mainly Y type shunters although there were some BB63500s and 2 BB67400s.

 

 

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I went to Limoges for a steam outing to Eyemoutier yesterday and drove through Roumaziers and drove past the works to build the bypass.   My colleague Andy was able to snatch a photo of the works on our way home, not brilliant but it does show, what's happening.

 

P8210976.JPG.d73e932f6363f54c7bf686ef885bd491.JPG

Not brilliant as we were on the wrong side of the road for the best viewpoint and in heavy traffic and Andy had never used my camera before.  However you can see the bypass in the bottom of the cutting.   The railway is roughly parallel and just south of the road here. Both abutments for the new bridge are very visible and nearly full height.   The crane is beside one of the piers.  I would hope that we will be able to ride the route by the end of next year.   Andy lives in Department 16 (Charente) and gets more local news about the area than I do.  The main fear is that the bridge will be too lightly constructed to carry freight.  However there is still work going on on the line.   Before our train trip we went trainspotting and saw this work heading up the steep hill out of Limoges towards Angouleme, hauled by two class 67400's.  

P8210943.JPG.ede9cced148f230f7d0f08ed1d4c18cf.JPGSo at least the line can carry loco hauled trains.  

 

Jamie

Edited by jamie92208
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I'm not sure why people believe that SNCF want to close the line.

In several places level crossings have been renewed and reballasting is also in evidence.

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