Heljan announce re-tooled Class 86 in OO

[MGR Hooper!]

4 hours ago, westie7 said:

Pantograph too high and wrong type.

And what's with the cab handrails extending soo far down

Pantograph being incorrect - Agree!
Handrails extending so far down -  seems to match prototype photos.

[westie7]

Aha, the one I was standing next to the other day had them stop short of the tumblehome

[ThaneofFife]

Hopefully with Ben at the helm he will be looking at any potential corrections to be made.

 

Regarding the steps I wasn't aware of the later modification but the ones that are featured are on the meaty side compared to the much thinner steps on the real thing.

 

Seems that a few samples have gone out with Rails and Hattons being two retailers that I have seen with them (and the class 25/3).

 

I know the main blast against the first attempt by Heljan at an 86 was at the bodyshell which is key but I do hope its turns out to be a far better more accurate model in the same vein as Bachmanns Class 85 and Hornbys Class 87.

[The Ghost of IKB]

To my eyes, looking at the photos on Hatton's website, the curvature of the cab front looks more accurate than the Hornby 87. Though as is usual for Heljan, the bogie detail looks too low relief.

Edited March 3, 2019 by The Ghost of IKB

[E3109]

Just noticed something, and this is a very minor gripe: won't stop me ordering.

 

The cab door handle recesses are of the later type, with one corner incorporating an arc, rather than being rectangular as when new. Also the original door glazing (drop lights) has sharper corners than the later replacements (fixed). It looks as though Heljan has just filled in the lower handle recess on the later 86/2 version for the AL6 / 86/0.

 

Not a biggie, by any means. Looks great overall.

The earlier Hornby 86/2s had no door handle recesses at all!

[The Ghost of IKB]

Good spot on the door handles, you're completely right about them.

[letterspider]

On 14/03/2019 at 19:41, The Ghost of IKB said:

Good spot on the door handles, you're completely right about them.

 

I realise that many modellers consider opening cab doors to be a gimmick but maybe this is an instance where it can allow the different variants to be modelled?

Or would a whole new tooling be required for the later variants?

[mdvle]

From Heljan's Facebook page:

 

Quote

**OO Class 86 Update**
In response to public demand, confirmed below are the planned running numbers, liveries, specification and price details for our eagerly-awaited OO gauge BR ‘AL6’, better known as Class 86/0.
Featuring a revised and backdated bodyshell, bogies, wheels and underframe and an all-new finescale pantograph, the model will build on previous editions from a few years ago to provide models for the key 1965-80 period. Never previously available in ready-to-run OO gauge form, the models will cover variations on the original BR blue colour scheme applied from new and BR Rail Blue, which was applied from the late-1960s onwards. The model has been designed to represent ‘as built’ locos and post-1973 examples with sanding gear fitted.
The new Heljan Class 86/0 will also feature our renowned high-performance chassis with all-wheel drive and all-wheel pick-up, LED illuminated headcode panels and tail lights, a 21-pin DCC decoder interface and provision for DCC sound. Running samples are now being tested on DC analogue and DCC to ensure they meet our specification. A number of minor improvements have also been requested, based on close inspection of the engineering samples.
Suggested Retail Price (SRP) will be £189.95 and all versions are available to order now from your regular Heljan stockist.
All the above information about this project is subject to alteration, but more details will be announced as the project develops. Look out for updates on the Heljan Facebook page and in the model railway press.

Heljan CLASS 86 MODELS
8650: BR Blue E3104 with red bufferbeams – as built
8651: BR Blue E3114 with small yellow warning panels and blue bufferbeams
8652: BR Blue E3178 with full yellow ends, white cab roof and red bufferbeams
8653: BR Rail Blue E3146 with double arrow logo, full yellow ends, white cab roof and black bufferbeams
8654: BR Rail Blue E3156 with double arrow logo and full yellow ends
8655: BR Rail Blue 86036 with double arrow logo, full yellow ends and orange cantrail stripes
8656: BR Rail Blue 86034 with double arrow logo, full yellow ends WEATHERED

 

[letterspider]

Ouch

[ThaneofFife]

Was 86 036 fitted with multiple working jumper cables?

 

Looking at the sample images I think the buffers are on the long side........stick out like Prince Charles' lug holes.

 

Any word on the pan mounting height yet?

[Wagonmaster]

On 01/03/2019 at 00:47, E3109 said:

 

They are correct for locos as built, see attached Flickr pic. The wider top plate was a later mod.

 

 

 

I am very pleased to see Heljan produce this retooled Class 86 in as built condition, I have been waiting in the hope someone would produce one. 

 

However, despite previous discussion on the subject, I still have concerns over the correct colour. The above image posted by E3109 shows E3187 in the colours I remember whilst watching them at Rugby and Coventry. To my eyes, this is not the standard Rail Blue, which is much darker. The earlier electric next to it is in Electric Blue and E3187 is painted a very similar shade, even if it is not Electric Blue. Could this be the earlier faded Chromatic Blue?

 

Trawling through other photographs from various sources show 86's in this lighter shade. Unfortunately I didn't find one with an early and Rail Blue loco's together for comparison.

 

It would be a pity to have the retooled model spoilt by the wrong shade of paint.

 

I also echo the other observations contributers have pointed out, especially the pantograph.

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Wagpnmaster
Typo

[MGR Hooper!]

1 hour ago, Wagpnmaster said:

I am very pleased to see Heljan produce this retooled Class 86 in as built condition, I have been waiting in the hope someone would produce one. 

 

However, despite previous discussion on the subject, I still have concerns over the correct colour. The above image posted by E3109 shows E3187 in the colours I remember whilst watching them at Rugby and Coventry. To my eyes, this is not the standard Rail Blue, which is much darker. The earlier electric next to it is in Electric Blue and E3187 is painted a very similar shade, even if it is not Electric Blue. Could this be the earlier faded Chromatic Blue?

 

Trawling through other photographs from various sources show 86's in this lighter shade. Unfortunately I didn't find one with an early and Rail Blue loco's together for comparison.

 

It would be a pity to have the retooled model spoilt by the wrong shade of paint.

 

I also echo the other observations contributers have pointed out, especially the pantograph.

 

 

 

You can always share your concerns with Ben Jones who works for Heljan now. He's probably the only one who seems to have interest in what they're doing and getting something correct. Haven't seen that much enthusiasm from other Heljan employees unfortunately. There's issues that I've brought up with Heljan multiple times in the past only to be given a typical PR style response on how much the strive for detail, only to have it incorrect in the end.

 

So give Ben a try and see....honestly he's our last hope.

[wombatofludham]

I genuinely think this ongoing debate about the AL6 shade of blue is happening because people are relying too much on unstable colour film prints of the time.  Also, colour perception varies from person to person and there are many other factors which need to be taken into account.

 

I've read somewhere that the specification for Rail Blue changed slightly in the 1970s to a blue which had more green pigment and which was more resistant to fade.  It was also, as I understand it, varnished.  When the AL6s were outshopped they entered service in 1965-6 in a noticeably darker shade of blue, but one which weathered less well than the later applications of Rail Blue.  In the late 60s and early 70s loco cleaning wasn't up to much and I distinctly recall those AL6s which still retained a white cab roof looking very "chalky" and faded but when you look at images where the loco is in the same shot as other rail blue painted locos the blue is very similar - just faded.  The key is to find pictures where the AL6 is alongside an earlier loco in proper, slightly metallic "Electric" blue so the variability of photo development can be discounted - and in these photos there is a clear difference.

 

The other thing we need to consider is the effect of daylight.  Back in the 60s and 70s there was far more airborne pollution in the air which did affect how sunlight appeared.  The skies were far more "milky" and hazy, and the light scatter was greater.  The clear blue skies of today largely were confined to a few days of the year.  It's surprising just how much colour cast there is with differently coloured skies, as an amateur artist living near the sea I've become fascinated by how the weather and our very clean air changes the colour of the landscape and has prompted me to experiment (successfully) with changeable coloured layout lighting in order to simulate the colour cast of sunset, sunrise, daytime and murky daytime, and moonlight.  I'm convinced that in some cases photographs are subject to some colour cast based on the prevailing light.  Of course, we then have the variability caused by photo printing processes and digitisation of old prints.

One thing that doesn't apply to the AL6 is the effect of early rail blue applied by airless spray painting.  All the photos of early AL6s clearly show a gloss finish whereas when the AM10 units were built (and I think the early Mk2a stock) they were spray painted using a very matt version of rail blue which gave it a very different appearance and again weathered badly giving the Mk2 stock in particular a very careworn appearance very quickly.

Finally I have a batch of Hornby AL6s which I've modified over the years or acquired to represent the early 1960s condition (and which will be coming to eBay soon for those of you who can't afford the new Heljan offering...) and I've consistently found that rail blue is far more accurate than electric blue, to the extent I've repainted some acquired locos incorrectly painted "electric" blue.  Weathering and the white cab roof and windows, together with the small yellow panel, do affect the way the rail blue is perceived by the eye (as well as the usual problem of the Mk1 eyeball perceiving model colour differently to how it perceives 1:1 colour which is on a bigger backdrop) but I for one hope that Heljan's researchers are talking to the AC Locomotive Group and others who will have the records and historical documents for the locos to get the paint hue debate finalised.  however, I guarantee that there will be some who are convinced it is wrong.

Just avoid Les Ross's Walsall Corporation Trolleybus blue, please! 

[adb968008]

I love debates about livery shade, and how light / film affects colour...

 

i just found this image image on the net which could suggest LNER Garter Blue and AC Electric blue are the same..

 

It looks darker than this..

https://railphotoprints.uk/p292472143/h2AD6AF38#h2ad6af38

Edited April 18, 2019 by adb968008

[cheesysmith]

I wonder if we could get Heljan to make some spare undecorated bodies, could be altered to fit the earlier chassis to correct the faults of that one

[Legend]

23 minutes ago, cheesysmith said:

I wonder if we could get Heljan to make some spare undecorated bodies, could be altered to fit the earlier chassis to correct the faults of that one

 

From a business point of view why would they do that? They would rather sell you a complete new model with the margin that involves . I appreciate you might think they made poor bodies to begin with and should offer to replace them at low cost, but that’s not the way the commercial world works . 

[wombatofludham]

19 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I love debates about livery shade, and how light / film affects colour...

 

i just found this image image on the net which could suggest LNER Garter Blue and AC Electric blue are the same..

 

It looks darker than this..

https://railphotoprints.uk/p292472143/h2AD6AF38#h2ad6af38

There is a chance that might be a repaint from "electric" blue into the later rail or chromatic blue.  E3036 is a Class AL4/84 which were stored quite early into their careers but, for some bizarre reason, BR then used at exhibitions to promote the new electric railway whilst in store.  The fact it is parked next to a kettle, and the fact that it's sporting a yellow bib, suggests it's one of the demic AL4s which were stored, but which has been tidied up to show the public what a real locomotive should look like and wean them off their kettle fetish.

I'm fairly sure at least one AL1 carried the darker blue with white cab windows and roof and small yellow bib for a couple of years as well and operated in service.

[61661]

On 18/04/2019 at 08:24, Wagpnmaster said:

I am very pleased to see Heljan produce this retooled Class 86 in as built condition, I have been waiting in the hope someone would produce one. 

 

However, despite previous discussion on the subject, I still have concerns over the correct colour. The above image posted by E3109 shows E3187 in the colours I remember whilst watching them at Rugby and Coventry. To my eyes, this is not the standard Rail Blue, which is much darker. The earlier electric next to it is in Electric Blue and E3187 is painted a very similar shade, even if it is not Electric Blue. Could this be the earlier faded Chromatic Blue?

 

Trawling through other photographs from various sources show 86's in this lighter shade. Unfortunately I didn't find one with an early and Rail Blue loco's together for comparison.

 

It would be a pity to have the retooled model spoilt by the wrong shade of paint.

 

I also echo the other observations contributers have pointed out, especially the pantograph.

 

Dear All,

Been following this discussion and just wanted to clarify a couple of points. Regarding the AL6 original colour, this debate has been going on for years but numerous photos show that it is emphatically not 'electric blue' as used on AL1-AL5. The AC Loco Group confirmed this during our research and Heljan acknowledged this on the original run of Class 86/2s when 86233/E3172 (item no. 8603) was decorated in a darker shade of blue. The paint for the full size repaint of 86233 was supplied by Howes/Railmatch to Alstom at Willesden using original paint specs and is certainly closer to Rail Blue than 'electric blue' (I have first hand knowledge of the event as I covered it for RAIL magazine many years ago!). However, it lacks the slightly green tinge that characterises BR Rail blue shades (which of course varied from works to works and depot to depot, and changed according to age, dirt, light and various other factors). Using period photography to gauge exact colour shades is a very dodgy enterprise and the only way to really do it is to source original paint specs. With all due respect to the owner and operator of 86259, which is a lovely machine, the shade of blue is far too bright for an AL6! 

Hopefully this will reassure potential customers that we aim to decorate our AL6s in something as close to the 'right' shade of blue as possible and head off the pre-emptive disappointment that seems to have been building up. 

 

I'm also aware that people are concerned about the new Faiveley pantograph seen on one of the early pre-production samples. We immediately noticed that there were a couple of problems with it and they are being addressed. As soon as we have improved models we will report back. We currently have two models out for testing, one fitted with DCC sound and another on loan to a layout with OHLE to ensure that the pan works as it should without causing damage to either the loco or the knitting! 

 

Enjoy your weekend. Happy Easter from everyone at Heljan. 

 

Ben

 

[adb968008]

A couple of other images...

E3059 (85004) and E3172 (later 86233) side by side in 1966, blue HYE.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h68040C4B#h68040c4b

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h68040C4B#h63c1efc8

 

E3056 (85001) / E3114 (86020) also side by side

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h68040C4B#h30f078

 

I cant help on earlier liveries, but I have a genuine BR double arrow off the centre body side of a class 86, it has blue paint splashes on it, presumably from the 1970’s.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by adb968008

[Wagonmaster]

I fully accept Mark's comments on colour film reproduction, printing, different light and even the effects of pollution. As is also well known, individuals eyes perceive colours differently. However, having said all that, there is a distinct difference in shade between the original blue and the later Rail Blue used on the AL6.

 

I have spent quite some time observing electrics on the WCML, which I live near and yes, the AL6's were not Electric Blue  as the earlier AL1-5's. The difference between shades became marked once the 86's started to be repainted into Corporate Blue using the darker Rail Blue. Of course, the original blue had faded a bit by this time! I must add that these observations were made at all times of day, in different lighting all year round, but such are the joys of commuting!

 

My concern was that Heljan might have produced an as built AL6 in the wrong shade, which would have been a shame.. But, seeing as Ben is involved and is fully aware of the problem and is researching into original paint codes with the AC Electric Group, I think we will be as near as possible.

[wombatofludham]

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 15:56, 61661 said:

Dear All,

Been following this discussion and just wanted to clarify a couple of points. Regarding the AL6 original colour, this debate has been going on for years but numerous photos show that it is emphatically not 'electric blue' as used on AL1-AL5. The AC Loco Group confirmed this during our research and Heljan acknowledged this on the original run of Class 86/2s when 86233/E3172 (item no. 8603) was decorated in a darker shade of blue. The paint for the full size repaint of 86233 was supplied by Howes/Railmatch to Alstom at Willesden using original paint specs and is certainly closer to Rail Blue than 'electric blue' (I have first hand knowledge of the event as I covered it for RAIL magazine many years ago!). However, it lacks the slightly green tinge that characterises BR Rail blue shades (which of course varied from works to works and depot to depot, and changed according to age, dirt, light and various other factors). Using period photography to gauge exact colour shades is a very dodgy enterprise and the only way to really do it is to source original paint specs. With all due respect to the owner and operator of 86259, which is a lovely machine, the shade of blue is far too bright for an AL6! 

Hopefully this will reassure potential customers that we aim to decorate our AL6s in something as close to the 'right' shade of blue as possible and head off the pre-emptive disappointment that seems to have been building up. 

 

I'm also aware that people are concerned about the new Faiveley pantograph seen on one of the early pre-production samples. We immediately noticed that there were a couple of problems with it and they are being addressed. As soon as we have improved models we will report back. We currently have two models out for testing, one fitted with DCC sound and another on loan to a layout with OHLE to ensure that the pan works as it should without causing damage to either the loco or the knitting! 

 

Enjoy your weekend. Happy Easter from everyone at Heljan. 

 

Ben

 

Great news, I can honestly say I haven't been this excited about a model loco in years.  Thanks to Heljan for taking the risk on this.  Now, if you could turn your 1968 Ian Allan Combined to the page with the LMR EMUs on it, there's a nice complimentary unit called an AM10...

[MGR Hooper!]

On 19/04/2019 at 20:26, 61661 said:

Dear All,

Been following this discussion and just wanted to clarify a couple of points. Regarding the AL6 original colour, this debate has been going on for years but numerous photos show that it is emphatically not 'electric blue' as used on AL1-AL5. The AC Loco Group confirmed this during our research and Heljan acknowledged this on the original run of Class 86/2s when 86233/E3172 (item no. 8603) was decorated in a darker shade of blue. The paint for the full size repaint of 86233 was supplied by Howes/Railmatch to Alstom at Willesden using original paint specs and is certainly closer to Rail Blue than 'electric blue' (I have first hand knowledge of the event as I covered it for RAIL magazine many years ago!). However, it lacks the slightly green tinge that characterises BR Rail blue shades (which of course varied from works to works and depot to depot, and changed according to age, dirt, light and various other factors). Using period photography to gauge exact colour shades is a very dodgy enterprise and the only way to really do it is to source original paint specs. With all due respect to the owner and operator of 86259, which is a lovely machine, the shade of blue is far too bright for an AL6! 

Hopefully this will reassure potential customers that we aim to decorate our AL6s in something as close to the 'right' shade of blue as possible and head off the pre-emptive disappointment that seems to have been building up. 

 

I'm also aware that people are concerned about the new Faiveley pantograph seen on one of the early pre-production samples. We immediately noticed that there were a couple of problems with it and they are being addressed. As soon as we have improved models we will report back. We currently have two models out for testing, one fitted with DCC sound and another on loan to a layout with OHLE to ensure that the pan works as it should without causing damage to either the loco or the knitting! 

 

Enjoy your weekend. Happy Easter from everyone at Heljan. 

 

Ben

 

Thanks, hope the pantograph is improved, it's a make or break kind of deal for me.

[61661]

On 21/04/2019 at 20:38, wombatofludham said:

Great news, I can honestly say I haven't been this excited about a model loco in years.  Thanks to Heljan for taking the risk on this.  Now, if you could turn your 1968 Ian Allan Combined to the page with the LMR EMUs on it, there's a nice complimentary unit called an AM10...

As a child of the 1980s on occasional visits to the WCML I always loved riding up front on a 310, kneeling up on the bench seat to watch the road ahead. Lovely units and would also make a nice model, but maybe one for another time!

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, 61661 said:

As a child of the 1980s on occasional visits to the WCML I always loved riding up front on a 310, kneeling up on the bench seat to watch the road ahead. Lovely units and would also make a nice model, but maybe one for another time!

 

But if only they had built more 303s. We could have had an unobstructed forwards view and sitting down.

 

Perhaps with the B4 bogies though rather than Gresleys which were a bit lively.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, 61661 said:

As a child of the 1980s on occasional visits to the WCML I always loved riding up front on a 310, kneeling up on the bench seat to watch the road ahead. Lovely units and would also make a nice model, but maybe one for another time!

But if you are going to do the 1960s and 70s class 86 you'll need to add in a 310 and/or a 304, these young uns have a 350 for their Pendos, elder modellers need an emu too.