Heljan announce re-tooled Class 86 in OO

[Anadin Dogwalker]

2 hours ago, GordonC said:

Is this not electric blue?

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428ee7c#h428ee7c

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428ee7c#hcddf21a4

 

 

Only on the AL5 behind the AL6. The very bright light tends to level things out but the shades are not the same. The contrast, two shots before these, between the same AL6 and the AL3 behind it on the same track is much more representative. I think the AL5 is wearing electric blue but some of the early ALs did get rail blue repaints in the original pattern but unless you're modelling Les Ross the AL6s never wore electric blue, only Rail blue in its various application variants.

 

Not wowed by the Hornby 86-style cab front handrail. Should be on three stanchions like Hornby's 87. 

 

[brushman47544]

5 hours ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Certainly looking very good. For my era E3114 is the one. 

Pity the photographs don't show the pantograph raised, I would have liked a closer  look at it.

There is a close up photo of one of the locos with pantograph raised on the Heljan Facebook page. No idea how to add a link I’m afraid.

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

There is a close up photo of one of the locos with pantograph raised on the Heljan Facebook page. No idea how to add a link I’m afraid.

 

 

 

[PrestburyJack]

Agreed that the AL6 / class 86 was only ever Rail Blue, but Heljan's Facebook page above says:

 

"covering original BR 1960s blue and Rail Blue livery variations across the 1965-80 period."

 

So what do they mean by BR 1960's blue?

[stovepipe]

24 minutes ago, PrestburyJack said:

Agreed that the AL6 / class 86 was only ever Rail Blue, but Heljan's Facebook page above says:

 

"covering original BR 1960s blue and Rail Blue livery variations across the 1965-80 period."

 

So what do they mean by BR 1960's blue?

 

I think Heljan are just trying to avoid confusion. The original livery was reported in the railway press in 1965 as rail blue, but the application used at the time resulted in a semi matt finish, which didn't wear very well. The later rail blue was more gloss when new, hence the two different shades. Which leaves a problem in how to describe the two liveries which were both Rail Blue.

[YesTor]

2 hours ago, stovepipe said:

Which leaves a problem in how to describe the two liveries which were both Rail Blue.

 

How about simply, "Rail Blue"... 

[MGR Hooper!]

On 20/08/2020 at 10:58, GordonC said:

 

I would agree with that, to me the electric blue livery looks a little dark and I'd really be expecting closer to this shade

 

 

 

Judging by the photographs from Heljan, it seems to be taken in an area that's not too well lit by the artificial lighting. Regardless of the white background, the main source of lighting which in this case seems to be artificial light, doesn't seem bright enough.

It's easily picked up by how dark the yellow is and how grey the white is. I've adjusted the colours a bit and I think this is more akin to what it should be....

 

BEFORE

 

AFTER

 

 

I'm quite happy with what I see here. Heljan have (for once) taken onboard feedback and worked on it. And that's a positive step IMHO.

As for any feedback/constructive criticism, The height at which the pantograph is far too high, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

 

I hope this model sells well for Heljan and I hope this model is a turning point for Heljan in terms of taking on board feedback, accepting errors and working on them. This is what they should've been doing from the get go....

 

I'm looking forward to their RfD Class 86s eagerly.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[Wagonmaster]

Certainly an interesting result from MGR Hooper's re-working of the Heljan photograph. I'd be quite happy if they turned out that shade, it's how I remember them in the late '60's/early '70's.

 

Here is a link to an interesting photo: 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h63C1EFC8

 

It is also good that Heljan have taken on board some of the observations made on this forum and others.  It can only result in a better model for everyone, higher customer satisfaction and increased sales. A win win situation surely. Perhaps other manufacturers should take note.

 

So when are we getting a Class 84? 

[No Decorum]

13 minutes ago, Wagpnmaster said:

 

So when are we getting a Class 84?

 

I’d like an answer to that too!

[stewartingram]

I'm not getting involved in the argument whether 86s were delivered in the shade of blue named Rail Blue. However, that is a PAINT COLOUR. The 2  liveries - with an E3xxx number or an 86xxx number - are definitely different LIVERIES. In other words they may both use the same paint, but other embellishments (eg yellow panels, numbering, etc differ.

 

Stewart

[stovepipe]

I'm pretty sure they weren't ever painted with orange bufferbeams, so I think we can safely ignore the altered photo.

 

Brian Haresnape documented at the time they were delivered, that they were not electric blue. E3109 of RMWeb has taken paint samples from 4 locos, from the still operating fleet, and found the first coat was rail blue not electric blue. 

[7013]

MGR Hooper has got it spot on, The original photo is under exposed.

[Anadin Dogwalker]

For those of you who have/aspired to roll yer own... I'll leave these here.

Pans are Judith Edge kits; headcode plate and sand fillers Jim Smith-Wright.

There a shot in print somewhere of these two (87008 leading 86010) in the centre roads of Carlisle in early 83 on southbound coils from Motherwell. Having the pans together looks a bit odd but it is legit.

 

[MGR Hooper!]

On 21/08/2020 at 11:11, stovepipe said:

I'm pretty sure they weren't ever painted with orange bufferbeams, so I think we can safely ignore the altered photo.

 

I'm sorry, but not only have you completely misunderstood the whole idea behind my post, you've also proven how people can misinterpret colour on a screen and then generalise it.

I've also not claimed to have done some professional editing job, all I've done is increase the brightness and highlights to something that matches the kind of studio set up that Hornby, Dapol, Rails of Sheffield and Hattons have.

My point being, Heljan's studio didn't have the best lighting on that day (not that they needed it anyway). And therefore the images were darker than expected.

I've used a colour picker to show the actual colours from the altered image...

LEFT: Brighter red as seen on the bufferbeams on the altered image
RIGHT: An actual shade of orange as most people know it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[Hal Nail]

It's the gift that keeps on giving! 

 

Not only are there numerous threads on what blue the real things wore (including this one if you go back a bit), but now we are debating if an artificially adjusted one might be what the model will look like

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Hal Nail

[spamcan61]

35 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

It's the gift that keeps on giving! 

 

Not only are there numerous threads on what blue the real things wore (including this one if you go back a bit), but now we are debating if an artificially adjusted one might be what the model will look like

 

I've always found these discussions of colour based on an image of a model taken under lighting of an unknown or mixed colour temperature on a camera using unknown colour gamut, run through however many image processing applications with equally unknown gamut then displayed on a screen which is almost certainly not colour calibrated rather baffling.

Edited August 22, 2020 by spamcan61

[stovepipe]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

I've always found these discussions of colour based on an image of a model taken under lighting of an unknown or mixed colour temperature on a camera using unknown colour gamut, run through however many image processing applications with equally unknown gamut then displayed on a screen which is almost certainly not colour calibrated rather baffling.

 

Yes exactly, a waste of everyone's time. The colours were documented at the time. No amount of photo alteration will change the fact that they were never electric blue, no matter how much people try and make it so. Thankfully Heljan appear to know this and hopefully they will produce it accordingly.

Edited August 22, 2020 by stovepipe

[letterspider]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

It's the gift that keeps on giving! 

 

Not only are there numerous threads on what blue the real things wore (including this one if you go back a bit), but now we are debating if an artificially adjusted one might be what the model will look like

 

 

To be fair, I was nearing £10 out of pocket returning  fluorescent blue and lemon yellow 73s.

The paint error was obvious on photos but I had it on pre order and it was too late to stop. This is one of the reasons I no longer pre order.

[wombatofludham]

What's that steady thumping noise I can hear?

Oh, it's just Heljan Ben banging his head rhythmically against the desk in frustration...

[ThaneofFife]

agreed.   hopefully can we move on......

[stovepipe]

Question for Heljan, re 8652 Class 86/0 E3178 in BR blue with full yellow ends, white cab roof, red bufferbeams and lion on wheel emblem.

 

I know you have said that photos are used to idntify versions, but are you certain this combination with red bufferbeams existed on this loco?

 

My understanding is that only the original releases from Doncaster (E3101-07), and EE/VF (E3161-69) delivered in 1965, sported the red bufferbeams - in combination with all over blue. Later when the yellow panels or full yellow panels were added, some retained the red bufferbeams e.g. E3106, E3165, E3166. I can't find any evidence that any other locos received red bufferbeams in the pre-TOPS period.

 

 

For those who want to hear Heljans stance on livery colours for the AL6 86/0, can I suggest a re-read of Ben's post on page 7, from 18 months ago.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139654-Heljan-announce-re-tooled-class-86-in-oo/&do=findComment&comment=3530434

 

[ThaneofFife]

hope the early version photos are just for mock up.  i see one with a lower single arm pan not the stone faiveley or cross arm.

[Clive Mortimore]

On 22/08/2020 at 13:09, stovepipe said:

 

Yes exactly, a waste of everyone's time. The colours were documented at the time. No amount of photo alteration will change the fact that they were never electric blue, no matter how much people try and make it so. Thankfully Heljan appear to know this and hopefully they will produce it accordingly.

Hi Stove

 

You are right , Brian Haresnape in the July 1965 Modern Railways stated that the AL6s were being painted in the new BR Blue. At the time he was working for BRs Design Panel and I think had a bit of insider information. Which makes  the few early ones to enter service the only Rail Blue locomotives without yellow on their ends.

[Gibbo675]

On 18/04/2019 at 13:28, wombatofludham said:

I genuinely think this ongoing debate about the AL6 shade of blue is happening because people are relying too much on unstable colour film prints of the time.  Also, colour perception varies from person to person and there are many other factors which need to be taken into account.

 

I've read somewhere that the specification for Rail Blue changed slightly in the 1970s to a blue which had more green pigment and which was more resistant to fade.  It was also, as I understand it, varnished.  When the AL6s were outshopped they entered service in 1965-6 in a noticeably darker shade of blue, but one which weathered less well than the later applications of Rail Blue.  In the late 60s and early 70s loco cleaning wasn't up to much and I distinctly recall those AL6s which still retained a white cab roof looking very "chalky" and faded but when you look at images where the loco is in the same shot as other rail blue painted locos the blue is very similar - just faded.  The key is to find pictures where the AL6 is alongside an earlier loco in proper, slightly metallic "Electric" blue so the variability of photo development can be discounted - and in these photos there is a clear difference.

 

The other thing we need to consider is the effect of daylight.  Back in the 60s and 70s there was far more airborne pollution in the air which did affect how sunlight appeared.  The skies were far more "milky" and hazy, and the light scatter was greater.  The clear blue skies of today largely were confined to a few days of the year.  It's surprising just how much colour cast there is with differently coloured skies, as an amateur artist living near the sea I've become fascinated by how the weather and our very clean air changes the colour of the landscape and has prompted me to experiment (successfully) with changeable coloured layout lighting in order to simulate the colour cast of sunset, sunrise, daytime and murky daytime, and moonlight.  I'm convinced that in some cases photographs are subject to some colour cast based on the prevailing light.  Of course, we then have the variability caused by photo printing processes and digitisation of old prints.

One thing that doesn't apply to the AL6 is the effect of early rail blue applied by airless spray painting.  All the photos of early AL6s clearly show a gloss finish whereas when the AM10 units were built (and I think the early Mk2a stock) they were spray painted using a very matt version of rail blue which gave it a very different appearance and again weathered badly giving the Mk2 stock in particular a very careworn appearance very quickly.

Finally I have a batch of Hornby AL6s which I've modified over the years or acquired to represent the early 1960s condition (and which will be coming to eBay soon for those of you who can't afford the new Heljan offering...) and I've consistently found that rail blue is far more accurate than electric blue, to the extent I've repainted some acquired locos incorrectly painted "electric" blue.  Weathering and the white cab roof and windows, together with the small yellow panel, do affect the way the rail blue is perceived by the eye (as well as the usual problem of the Mk1 eyeball perceiving model colour differently to how it perceives 1:1 colour which is on a bigger backdrop) but I for one hope that Heljan's researchers are talking to the AC Locomotive Group and others who will have the records and historical documents for the locos to get the paint hue debate finalised.  however, I guarantee that there will be some who are convinced it is wrong.

Just avoid Les Ross's Walsall Corporation Trolleybus blue, please! 

Hi Wombat,

 

A post by BernardTPM on this thread might help:

 

 

From what I have seen in researching this "shades of blue" carry on, and as a rule of thumb, should any AC electric have:

 

• A white cab and red buffer beams BS318 175.
• A white cab and blue buffer beams BS318 107.
• A blue cab roof and black buffer beams BR Rail Blue.

 

Arrows and crests are another minefield with the darker shade of Electric blue with arrows and BR blue with crests.

 

Photographs and discernment are required along with a lot of tea drinking to ease the confusion !

 

Gibbo.

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Gibbo675
Extra Information

[cravensdmufan]

On 18/04/2019 at 13:28, wombatofludham said:

I genuinely think this ongoing debate about the AL6 shade of blue is happening because people are relying too much on unstable colour film prints of the time.  Also, colour perception varies from person to person and there are many other factors which need to be taken into account.

It is always difficult to make judgement of a livery shade from old photos of individual locos - what you need is a  shot of a loco alongside an item of rolling stock which you know is correct in the same photo.  The colour reproduction and printing of that photo then becomes irrelevant.

 

One such photo appears on page 56 of Hugh Ballantyne's excellent book "West Coast Blue Electrics" *.  The photo was taken on 6th March 1966 and is of E3200 attached to a Mk2 TSO in blue and grey. The two shades of blue are the same.   (E3200 was introduced new to service on 10th February 1966 so is definitely in it's original livery). 

 

Having said all that E3200 was the last of the AL6s to be introduced so maybe it's not the best loco to use as the definitive example of livery for all members of the class.  Maybe earlier locos into service from mid 1965 were adorned with very slightly different paint?  Who knows?  No doubt the debate will continue!  

 

But I'll settle on Rail Blue!

 

*  Confusingly, Hugh's caption below the photo starts off with the words "New In electric blue livery"!