letterspider Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 On 21/11/2018 at 13:22, Andy Y said: NEW: BR ‘AL6’ – Class 86/0 Bo-Bo electric In response to public demand, we are developing a fully re-tooled OO gauge Class 86. We’ve also taken the opportunity to backdate it to depict the ‘AL6’ in as-built condition and as a Class 86/0 for the period 1965-80. Our new model retains the smooth-running chassis and mechanism of Version 1 but features a number of improvements over our previous Class 86s, including a completely new pantograph, 21-pin DCC interface, better bodyside grilles, plus original pattern bogies and underframe equipment. CAD work on the models is complete and tooling is now in progress. The first engineering prototype samples of the ‘AL6’ are expected to arrive in the UK early in 2019. Models will be released in all the major variations of original BR blue and late-1960s/1970s BR Rail Blue and will include a weathered edition. Proposed Liveries – loco identities to be confirmed later • 8650: BR blue with lion & wheel emblem ‘as built’ • 8651: BR blue with lion & wheel emblem (small yellow panel) • 8652: BR blue with lion & wheel emblem (full yellow end) • 8653: BR Rail blue with white cab roof (full yellow end) • 8654: BR Rail blue (full yellow end) • 8655: BR Rail blue (full yellow end) • 8656: BR Rail blue (full yellow end) WEATHERED • Expected Release in late-2019. It does say a completely new pantograph; I think they will get it right this time 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 2 hours ago, letterspider said: It does say a completely new pantograph; I think they will get it right this time That's not the point, we all know it's a brand new pantograph. Ben has done well and taken onboard feedback previously regarding the pantograph. The only issue remaining now is the height at which it sits. The insulators on which the pantograph base sits is almost twice as high as it should be. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 (edited) The problem must be all the insulators as the pantograph is in line with them both in the model and in the prototype (taken from the eHattons website) (taken from wikipedia) I know this is dealt with on page 6 of this thread. Seems to be the base being made in plastic which is the problem, it looks about 1.5mm to 2mm thick for strength. I don't see how this would look right without some compromise, the base would have to be very tough metal, thin above the insulators and then attached to pegs which would go down through them to hold the whole assemby into the roof. I guess the production of such a part was simply too expensive to justify. So then the other option is to lower all the insulators which may also draw complaints or make the whole thing from plastic, like Hornby, again complaints I know the Bachmann 85 'looks right' - but the insulators are all lower than the 86. Apart from the cross supports on the upper arm, are they the same pantograph? If so I think I have one in my spares box... Edited October 14, 2020 by letterspider 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 good to reference from photos - ideally you want one showing the sample model in the same profile aspect. I hope Ben is on the case unless what we are seeing is not yet the actual base of the pan that will go ahead on the production run. I would rather shorter insulators all undersized than oversized and too tall and have the pan sitting up so high. it really looks toy like, like this. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 I think I'd agree, lower all the insulators 1mm would be the better compromise so the pantograph has a better profile when it is lowered..and hopefully Heljan rebuilt everything from the base up more to scale. finishing with a note of irony, Heljan previously said the original pantograph was a compromise to make it more robust for handling, however on the original model I found the biggest problems were roof aerial snapping off due to the foam insert in the box as well as undercarriage falling off! I think they will succeed this time around, because I really need a good Class 86 - I think it's great to have a super detailed 85,86 and 87 all from different manufacturers 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagonmaster Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 Hi DCB90024, This is the link to Michael Edge's thread. The new pantograph is on Page 61. Hope that helps 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted October 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2020 We should have the pantograph kit in production by end November/early December. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Markwj Posted October 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2020 On 14/10/2020 at 05:06, MGR Hooper! said: As for the pantograph, seems like Heljan already made corrections from what we saw in the CAD stage, so I have little hope that they'd re-visit it again to correct the height (*please prove me wrong Heljan). It was mentioned multiple times before, but as usual I'm fairly certain it either wasn't noted or they deemed it too minor to bother about. Or maybe like in a certain other Heljan thread, we'd be blamed for not finding the issue when we already pointed it out. Which Heljan thread was that? I remember Dave Jones having a fit when people pointed out faults on the Dapol western when he worked there but don’t recall it in a Heljan thread. Not saying it’s not there just haven’t spotted it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 20 hours ago, Wagpnmaster said: Hi DCB90024, This is the link to Michael Edge's thread. The new pantograph is on Page 61. Hope that helps 16 hours ago, Michael Edge said: We should have the pantograph kit in production by end November/early December. Thanks for posting that...Looks great. The pantograph in question on Pg.61 looks like the ones fitted to the Class 81-85. Will you'll be doing the type that will fit the Class 86 i.e. the Stone-Faiveley type with the extra bracing on the upper arm? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 On 14/10/2020 at 10:16, letterspider said: It does say a completely new pantograph; I think they will get it right this time Oh well, that's it then, if it's "completely new" then it must be okay... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnson Street IEMD Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, MGR Hooper! said: Thanks for posting that...Looks great. The pantograph in question on Pg.61 looks like the ones fitted to the Class 81-85. Will you'll be doing the type that will fit the Class 86 i.e. the Stone-Faiveley type with the extra bracing on the upper arm? Hi Hayley, Thanks for that, I will have a look at this later on today Kind regards Kat @JohnsonStreetIEMD 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Hi Folks, Sommerfeld make HO pantographs that are quite fine in their structure, weirdly the Fine Structure Constant is also known as Sommerfeld's Constant. I know the spelling is different but its near enough for my amusement. Gibbo. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS_LNER_SR_GWR_fan2004 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Sommerfeldt 968 is the best for Stone-Faiveley pantographs 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said: Hi Folks, Sommerfeld make HO pantographs that are quite fine in their structure, weirdly the Fine Structure Constant is also known as Sommerfeld's Constant. I know the spelling is different but its near enough for my amusement. Gibbo. Yes they are good and I have one or two to sell if anyone is interested, the big problem is being HO they will not fir intot the mounting holes for OO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 9 hours ago, DBC90024 said: Hi Hayley, Thanks for that, I will have a look at this later on today Kind regards Kat @JohnsonStreetIEMD Actually @Wagpnmaster is the one to thank 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnson Street IEMD Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Oooops my bad @MGR Hooper! ... thank you @Wagpnmaster for the link on this ... soo what we were seeing was probably the latest sample, with an older pantograph, which wont feature on the production unit. I guess with the 86's there is that unusual aspect of, certainly where the later ones are concerned but that there are two different pantographs still in use today on the Freightliner stock, the modern ones looking like the Brecknell Willis design. Kat @johnsonstreetIEMD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 I wonder in @Michael Edge is planning on doing a Brecknell-Willis pantograph kit as well. Our static 3D printed ones sell like hot cakes.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagonmaster Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Talking of pantographs, did I read somewhere that some early AL6's were fitted with cross arm pantographs? I'm sure I've seen a picture of an original liveried AL6 with one, but I can't lay my hands on the photograph at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 47 minutes ago, Wagpnmaster said: Talking of pantographs, did I read somewhere that some early AL6's were fitted with cross arm pantographs? I'm sure I've seen a picture of an original liveried AL6 with one, but I can't lay my hands on the photograph at the moment. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted October 20, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2020 Yes there were 10 sets of cross-arm pantographs supplied in the original AL6 order, and they were used well into the 1980s. They seemed to get swapped around locos periodically, presumably after works visits. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnson Street IEMD Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, BR(S) said: Great picture there of the early pre-tops 86, showing in the foreground the Western entrance/exit into the ''Mucky hole'' as it's known by the locals.. Kat :-) Edited October 20, 2020 by DBC90024 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 On 18/10/2020 at 17:05, DBC90024 said: Oooops my bad @MGR Hooper! ... thank you @Wagpnmaster for the link on this ... soo what we were seeing was probably the latest sample, with an older pantograph, which wont feature on the production unit. I guess with the 86's there is that unusual aspect of, certainly where the later ones are concerned but that there are two different pantographs still in use today on the Freightliner stock, the modern ones looking like the Brecknell Willis design. Kat @johnsonstreetIEMD Considering Heljan have to prove that this retool is a winner - maybe it would have been better not to have shown the latest sample with the older pantograph on top. If they are going to be manufacturing a wide range of variants they will need to get the pantograph spot on to convince modellers to buy more than one. Fingers crossed that they have got this right. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, letterspider said: Considering Heljan have to prove that this retool is a winner - maybe it would have been better not to have shown the latest sample with the older pantograph on top. If they are going to be manufacturing a wide range of variants they will need to get the pantograph spot on to convince modellers to buy more than one. Fingers crossed that they have got this right. The Heljan Class 86/0 and Class 86/4 samples have the "updated" pantograph. NOT the "older" pantograph. Edited October 20, 2020 by MGR Hooper! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted October 20, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2020 (edited) On 12/10/2020 at 09:34, 61661 said: We've identified a number of issues with this first body sample (the chassis is borrowed from a first batch model and the pantograph is from an AL6 sample) and they are being dealt with. Hope this helps Ben Worth repeating Ben's comments around the 86/4 photo. Edited October 20, 2020 by Hal Nail 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 (edited) I'm sorry of I'm being a bit stupid but what does that mean? This is the old pantograph in the photo? Edited October 20, 2020 by letterspider 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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