Heljan announce re-tooled Class 86 in OO

[MGR Hooper!]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

Don't forget the fuel tanks are different also.

Roy

Exactly why I'm after a full loco and not just a bodyshell. But thanks to adb for the suggestion...

[Northern Electric]

Hi folks,

New guy here and I just though I'd start by saying hello on this thread as the class 86 is my favorite locomotive!

I am very pleased and excited to see this new release taking shape and will definitely be making a purchase!

  I was just wondering if there has been any further news about release dates yet?

And also thought I would chip in some feedback about those sample models as I have identified a couple of areas to look at, some of which I was surprised to find don't seem to have been mentioned yet, so apologies in advance for such a long post!

 

Things to look at:

 

Rain gutters - I noticed all the samples shown on page 12 of this thread appear to have the short rain gutter that runs over the cab door only.  This is actually incorrect for the majority of the class.  Having reviewed pictures online and in my books, it appears that only the first dozen or so locos from each works was built that way. Most locos of the build emerged with the full length gutters extending over the opening quarter light window too, as can still be seen today. By approximately 1967/8 all the earlier batch had been fitted with the longer gutters.  So the style carried by those sample models is only correct for the earliest "Monastral Blue" version and definitely incorrect for the BR blue version. If only one style is to be used to simplify tooling, I would go with the latter is it is correct for the majority of the class and is still authentic for all the liveries represented, except for the original blue with no yellow warning panel.

 

Sanding gear - The as-built AL6 variants are correctly modeled with no sanding gear or filler flaps on the cab sides.  However looking at the BR blue examples, I think (it is not entirely clear from the photos) it has the wrong style filler flaps on the cab side . When the AL6s were first fitted with sanding gear (circa 1973 I believe..?) they had the earlier style filler flaps which are hinged from the top with the large concave circular handle in the middle, as per the class 87s. The type that is shown on the sample appears to be the later type with the flush flap that hinges on the side. That is CORRECT for the 86/4, 86/6 and later 86/2, but INCORRECT for the 86/0 as seen here. 

I am also curious as to whether the appropriate sanding pipes on the front of the bogies will be fitted to the sanding gear equipped models?

 

Pantograph - Much has been said already about the pantograph, particularly with regards to it sitting too high.  I would have to concur, it does look a little high when in the lowered position. Someone has suggested shortening (all) the insulators slightly, which is one possibility. Perhaps if combined with making the legs of the base slight shallower where they meet the insulators, this would make the whole assembly sit a little lower and look a bit better?  

Continuing on the roof equipment theme, there are a couple of detail errors that have been carried over from the old model that I would like to see addressed: The air motor linkage to raise the pantograph appears to sit flat on the roof - i.e. several mm below where it should be (connected to the bottom of the lower pantograph arm).

The earthing switch on the air-blast circuit breaker is in the raised position, which would mean the pantograph would be locked down and the locomotive out of service, and the bit of conductor that connects the two sides of it is missing. In service the earth switch should be open (away from the top of the insulators).

 

Positive feedback:

 

The body detailing, particularly the grilles and the tail lights, look to be much improved over the old model, and the livery looks excellent.

The shades of blue look to be spot on, and this is coming from someone who has watched hours of colour footage of the AL6s at work during the period in question as well as hundreds of photos in books, magazines and on flickr.   I also helped to sand down 85101 back to bare metal (through its original coat of electric blue) for its repaint into BR blue several years ago, I can categorically say that electric blue and rail blue are not at all alike!  How the two ever got mistaken for one another continues to mystify me!

The only thing I noted is that the shade of grey on the roof looked too dark, but hard to say definitively just from those sample photos.

 

On the topic of livery, I have a question: Will they be supplied with etched BR crests and numbers as per Bachmann AL5, or will customers have to purchase their own?

And if that is the case, will the running number be easy to remove should customers wish to renumber their locos?

I am very excited to see this model being developed and will certainly be purchasing one or two!   I did have a go at making a few AL6s a while back from Hornby 86s and the Craftsman 86/0 kit.  They turned out pretty good, but clearly the market has been waiting for a model like this for quite some time and this will go very well along side Bachmann's 85 and Hornby's early blue era 87.

 

Sorry to rattle on for so long it's just I really want this model to be a success! AC electrics have enjoyed a real resurgence in popularity the last few years, much to my delight. Long may that continue!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by NorthenElectric91

[letterspider]

What do you think of the Hornby 87?

[lyneux]

9 hours ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

 

And also thought I would chip in some feedback about those sample models as I have identified a couple of areas to look at, some of which I was surprised to find don't seem to have been mentioned yet, so apologies in advance for such a long post!

 

Well observed comments, thanks for chipping in!

 

Guy

[Hal Nail]

11 hours ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

I also helped to sand down 85101 back to bare metal (through its original coat of electric blue) for its repaint into BR blue several years ago, I can categorically say that electric blue and rail blue are not at all alike! 

 

Not in any way taking sides but this highlights why some manufacturers have said that the comments can be a minefield they'd rather avoid: I've read other people who claim to have sanded through the paint and were equally adamant it was not electric!

 

ps no wish to re-open this debate - merely giving an example of the conflicting info they have to sift through.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

46 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Not in any way taking sides but this highlights why some manufacturers have said that the comments can be a minefield they'd rather avoid: I've read other people who claim to have sanded through the paint and were equally adamant it was not electric!

 

ps no wish to re-open this debate - merely giving an example of the conflicting info they have to sift through.

 

 

& just to add further to this, the debate about electric blue or not was the AL6, not the AL5..

I'll get my coat!

[Hal Nail]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

& just to add further to this, the debate about electric blue or not was the AL6, not the AL5..

I'll get my coat!

Good point, well made!

 

I rest my case. It's hard enough deciphering which 86 people are talking about without chucking in a different class altogether.

 

[Northern Electric]

11 hours ago, letterspider said:

What do you think of the Hornby 87?

I was very excited about the new 87 and I think it is a good model overall with excellent chassis and bogie detailing, but having seen them in the flesh there are a couple of issues with it.

One being the same thing the old Heljan 86 was heavily criticised for... the grilles!  They do not look right to me - the vertical slats seem to be flush with the outer square surround rather than slightly recessed as they should be (and are on the old Lima/Hornby model).  It's doesn't look too bad on the IC swallow version due to the dark upper body colour, but I find it quite noticeable on the BR blue versions and very obvious on the red of the VT version.  It's a real pity they got that part wrong as the rest of the body looks rather good to me.

 

I really like Hornby's version of the cross-arm pantograph on the early BR blue version. In fact I would say it's the first pantograph of ANY RTR electric that I have genuinely liked the look of! Though on second glance it looks like it is sat a bit too high. I think possibly the insulators may be the issue here as much as the pantograph its self (as it seems to be on the 86). 

I was less impressed with the Brecknell-Willis version, which looks to be a carry over from the old model and was rather flimsy and not very good even then.  I'm not sure why Hornby would go to expense of tooling and entirely new body and chassis to then use a 12 year old carry over pantograph....?

Overall a good model, slightly let down by a few silly detail errors and a poor pantograph (except on the cross-arm version). I would consider one in IC livery if the price was right. I haven't bought one yet as you can buy Bachmann's new class 90 for the same price which I think is a better model overall (I have the IC swallow version) but I might pick one up once they become a bit cheaper and maybe do a pan swap on it.

[Northern Electric]

RE my comment about the shade of blue - I have no intention of reigniting a (very) old debate about what classes or specific locos wore what, and sincerely hope my comment was not construed as such!  My intention was to make the following points:

 

1. The colour of the sample model looks nice and accurate to me - Well done guys!

 

2. Early rail blue (which has in the past often been incorrectly dubbed electric blue) looks nothing like actual electric blue in real life.

 

 

Hope that clears up any confusion!

Edited November 4, 2020 by NorthenElectric91

[shunny]

I see Gaugemaster are doing 86622 and 86637 in Powerhaul livery as part of the Gaugemaster collection range showing on their website now for shops and customers to preorder. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by shunny

[classy52]

23 minutes ago, shunny said:

I see Gaugemaster are doing 86622 and 86637 in Powerhaul livery as part of the Gaugemaster collection range showing on their website now for shops and customers to preorder. 

 

I had to rub my eyes and look for DCC Sound incl. being mentioned somewhere but no they are actually £229.95 for 8 PIn DCC Ready (its actually 21 Pin) Heljan Class 86, are they are having a massive laugh or am I missing something here?

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

20 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

I had to rub my eyes and look for DCC Sound incl. being mentioned somewhere but no they are actually £229.95 for 8 PIn DCC Ready (its actually 21 Pin) Heljan Class 86, are they are having a massive laugh or am I missing something here?

 

Whilst it's nice of Heljan to offer some further versions and liveries of the Class 86 as Limited Editions I have just been looking at the product pages and thinking exactly the same. Almost £230 for DCC Ready. I rarely complain about prices but...

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[classy52]

2 minutes ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Whilst it's nice of Heljan to offer some further versions and liveries of the Class 86 as Limited Editions I have just been looking at the product pages and thinking exactly the same. Almost £230 for DCC Ready. I rarely complain about prices but...

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

Seriously it must be a mistake, if not they'll be lucky to sell more than 10 at that price.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

3 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

Seriously it must be a mistake, if not they'll be lucky to sell more than 10 at that price.

 

You would like to think so wouldn't you. I have just been checking the Rails website for the prices of the first batch of the standard range of 86s. The first batch which includes the BR Blue and BR Rail Blue versions are priced at £161.45 without weathering. I understand that Limited Edition models most of the time are offered at higher prices than other liveries in standard ranges, so for a Freightliner Powerhaul 86 or two in this case, you would expect to be paying possibly around £180 or £190 each, but certainly not almost £230. Surely if the price of almost £230 was a holding price instead it would just say or be more useful to say price TBA, and then confirm the price at a later stage. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[Wagonmaster]

Does seem quite a mark up for an exclusive limited edition. Mind you, I've noticed that quite  few of these and retailer commissioned models are at a premium, so much so that I end up not buying them! A don't get me started on Bachmann's latest multiple units!

 

I'll still be having an original blue syp 86 though!

 

 

[classy52]

24 minutes ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Does seem quite a mark up for an exclusive limited edition. Mind you, I've noticed that quite  few of these and retailer commissioned models are at a premium, so much so that I end up not buying them! A don't get me started on Bachmann's latest multiple units!

 

I'll still be having an original blue syp 86 though!

 

 

 

Yeah but I've never witnessed anything quite like this, the most is probably around £180 but £229.95 is the ultimate p*ss take.

[Mike at C&M]

I suspect the £161.45 is the originally quoted discounted price for the model, so expect that to go up, the 2nd batch of 86s announced are priced some £10 higher.

 

Then consider that Gaugemaster are now dealing with a lot of Heljan's distribution in the UK, another level of profit. But like many retailers, I have moved my orders to Gaugemaster, so as to avoid the hassle of buying direct from Denmark post-Brexit. At the end of day, Heljan will not want to see their profits diminish on items they produce, and quite rightly so. And if we retailers are buying these models from Gaugemaster, we still want our percentage of profit.......

 

Then consider that each year usually brings a small hike in price....

 

Then consider that Brexit will bring increased costs to bring items into the UK.....

 

Then consider that Freightliner may be asking for a contribution for using their Powerhaul livery which needs to be factored into the cost....

 

Even a small increment from each of these will push the discounted £161.45 price up towards £229.95 very quickly.

[Wagonmaster]

4 minutes ago, Mike at C&M said:

I suspect the £161.45 is the originally quoted discounted price for the model, so expect that to go up, the 2nd batch of 86s announced are priced some £10 higher.

 

Then consider that Gaugemaster are now dealing with a lot of Heljan's distribution in the UK, another level of profit. But like many retailers, I have moved my orders to Gaugemaster, so as to avoid the hassle of buying direct from Denmark post-Brexit. At the end of day, Heljan will not want to see their profits diminish on items they produce, and quite rightly so. And if we retailers are buying these models from Gaugemaster, we still want our percentage of profit.......

 

Then consider that each year usually brings a small hike in price....

 

Then consider that Brexit will bring increased costs to bring items into the UK.....

 

Then consider that Freightliner may be asking for a contribution for using their Powerhaul livery which needs to be factored into the cost....

 

Even a small increment from each of these will push the discounted £161.45 price up towards £229.95 very quickly.

 

I appreciate the points you have made and put in that context, it is quite easy to see how such a figure can be arrived at.

 

However, my point is that some RTR models and exclusive editions have become so ridiculously expensive to the point where I, and know many others, cannot justify paying that sort of money for them. So it seems a bit of a self defeating policy to me if manufacturers and retailers keep hiking the prices and end up with an ever reducing sales base!

[classy52]

16 minutes ago, Mike at C&M said:

I suspect the £161.45 is the originally quoted discounted price for the model, so expect that to go up, the 2nd batch of 86s announced are priced some £10 higher.

 

Then consider that Gaugemaster are now dealing with a lot of Heljan's distribution in the UK, another level of profit. But like many retailers, I have moved my orders to Gaugemaster, so as to avoid the hassle of buying direct from Denmark post-Brexit. At the end of day, Heljan will not want to see their profits diminish on items they produce, and quite rightly so. And if we retailers are buying these models from Gaugemaster, we still want our percentage of profit.......

 

Then consider that each year usually brings a small hike in price....

 

Then consider that Brexit will bring increased costs to bring items into the UK.....

 

Then consider that Freightliner may be asking for a contribution for using their Powerhaul livery which needs to be factored into the cost....

 

Even a small increment from each of these will push the discounted £161.45 price up towards £229.95 very quickly.

 

Then good luck to them, they won't get get any sales from me at those prices for DCC Ready and if it means I'm priced out of purchasing Heljan locomotives then so be it.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Hi Mike, 

 

Thank you for raising the points that you have. I didn't think of some of them and I can see why they would increase the overall price per locomotive. If the price is correct for each locomotive I can't help but think, have Heljan considered how many people that would buy or be interested in buying these models a) could afford to and b) could justify spending that amount of money per model. For example if a customer wanted to buy both of the Freightliner Powerhaul 86s to run as a pair, as is prototypical most of the time in reality, that would cost £460 and with DCC Decoders for a DCC user, nearly £500. That's without either of the locomotives been fitted with sound. If the price is correct, I just can't help but think that they are pricing the majority of potential customers who ordinarily would buy these models out of buying them. I, alike others who have posted above couldn't afford and I wouldn't be able to justify spending almost £230 each on 47815, 86622 and 86637. Unfortunately, this would mean that I and many others would miss out. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[Johnson Street IEMD]

how do we know its definitely Heljan's new 86 ? Couldnt they not have opted to do a spin on the 88 instead ? 

 

 

[Mike at C&M]

I don't know if this 'trick' is relevant, but this is what we did with our 'N' gauge Class 86s in BR Blue from Dapol.

 

We wondered whether we could sell 250 units of the same loco, so (the then) Dapol Dave suggested that if we could find 2 locomotives that looked identical, simply do 125 of each, by doing two different tampo-prints on a run of blue liveried locomotives.

 

Therefore, take a run of Powerhaul liveried 86s, and print half of them as 86.622, and half of them as 86.637.

 

So now is the point where someone points out that 86.622 and 86.637 are very different, and you cannot use the above 'trick'

 

 

[newbryford]

59 minutes ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

For example if a customer wanted to buy both of the Freightliner Powerhaul 86s to run as a pair, as is prototypical most of the time in reality,

 

So your justification for selling them cheaper is because they mostly run in pairs?

 

Unfortunately there are two simple solutions in the harsh world upon which we exist

a: Buy one now and save up for the second

b: spend your available funds somewhere else. After all, we all know you have a massive shopping/wishlist as you've mentioned on numerous occasions.

 

(There is actually a solution c: but it would probably get me banned................)

 

[classy52]

1 hour ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

Hi Mike, 

 

Thank you for raising the points that you have. I didn't think of some of them and I can see why they would increase the overall price per locomotive. If the price is correct for each locomotive I can't help but think, have Heljan considered how many people that would buy or be interested in buying these models a) could afford to and b) could justify spending that amount of money per model. For example if a customer wanted to buy both of the Freightliner Powerhaul 86s to run as a pair, as is prototypical most of the time in reality, that would cost £460 and with DCC Decoders for a DCC user, nearly £500. That's without either of the locomotives been fitted with sound. If the price is correct, I just can't help but think that they are pricing the majority of potential customers who ordinarily would buy these models out of buying them. I, alike others who have posted above couldn't afford and I wouldn't be able to justify spending almost £230 each on 47815, 86622 and 86637. Unfortunately, this would mean that I and many others would miss out. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

35 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

So your justification for selling them cheaper is because they mostly run in pairs?

 

Unfortunately there are two simple solutions in the harsh world upon which we exist

a: Buy one now and save up for the second

b: spend your available funds somewhere else. After all, we all know you have a massive shopping/wishlist as you've mentioned on numerous occasions.

 

(There is actually a solution c: but it would probably get me banned................)

 

 

That was a crap response Mick, very condescending and completely taken out of context and have included Danny's OP so people can see what he actually said which has nothing do with explicitly reducing the price so you can buy 2 Class 86's, what Danny stated and what you highlighted was just an example based on prototypical formations and how much it would cost if you chose to do this and not a call to Gaugemaster/Heljan to reduce the price so you can buy two.

To also have a dig at his historical posts is just poor form overall.

So what is c: then?..come on just say it.

[newbryford]

8 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

 

That was a crap response Mick, very condescending and completely taken out of context and have included Danny's OP so people can see what he actually said which has nothing do with explicitly reducing the price so you can buy 2 Class 86's, what Danny stated and what you highlighted was just an example based on prototypical formations and how much it would cost if you chose to do this and not a call to Gaugemaster/Heljan to reduce the price so you can buy two.

To also have a dig at his historical posts is just poor form overall.

So what is c: then?..come on just say it.