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Heljan announce re-tooled Class 86 in OO


Andy Y
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Something else to consider in the supposed astronomic increase in prices.

 

£161.49 quoted for the original batch is a discounted price and potentially subject to increase when these models actually appear.

£229.00 is the RRP at what will be the new price, and is likely to be discounted by many shops, ourselves included.

 

The perceived gap is not as large as it might at first seem.

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1 minute ago, Mike at C&M said:

Something else to consider in the supposed astronomic increase in prices.

 

£161.49 quoted for the original batch is a discounted price and potentially subject to increase when these models actually appear.

£229.00 is the RRP at what will be the new price, and is likely to be discounted by many shops, ourselves included.

 

The perceived gap is not as large as it might at first seem.

 

So the Gaugemaster Collection models are also sold via other retailers?...apologies but not sure on this as I haven't purchased GC models before.

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14 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

:banghead:

 

9 minutes ago, Mike at C&M said:

Something else to consider in the supposed astronomic increase in prices.

 

£161.49 quoted for the original batch is a discounted price and potentially subject to increase when these models actually appear.

£229.00 is the RRP at what will be the new price, and is likely to be discounted by many shops, ourselves included.

 

The perceived gap is not as large as it might at first seem.

Hi Chaps,

 

I've have worked in engineering for most of my life and I am well aware of how much it costs to set up a facility and equip it with the bare minimum of machinery let alone produce finely detailed and accurate models.

 

The only thing that surprises me me is that they are as cheap as they are for what you get.

 

Gibbo.

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16 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

So your justification for selling them cheaper is because they mostly run in pairs?

 

Unfortunately there are two simple solutions in the harsh world upon which we exist

a: Buy one now and save up for the second

b: spend your available funds somewhere else. After all, we all know you have a massive shopping/wishlist as you've mentioned on numerous occasions.

 

(There is actually a solution c: but it would probably get me banned................)

 

 

This was just a working example of, I imagine some of the market that would want the pair of FL Powerhaul 86s. I never said that everyone would like to buy both, or that everyone would need to buy both. I am just referring to how the prototypes run and therefore the likelihood is that at least some of the potential buyers would wish to buy both models. I'm not specifically talking or referring to myself here and/or my own wants and needs, I'm talking about the market in a more general and broader basis. I wouldn't say that my shopping list was massive. In total it's x4 Class 20/3s, x7 Class 37s and x1 Class 68 with some of the corresponding items of rolling stock thrown in to run with them e.g; Network Rail MK1s and MK2s, ScotRail MK2s, KUAs, Caroline Inspection Saloon and a rake of Transpennine Express MK5s. I wouldn't have said that's a massive wishlist, but nevertheless I always say how grateful I am for what I can afford to buy, and I do work hard for the models that I buy. So I'm not sure what you are trying so suggest about my finances, how much I spend on models, or with regards the content that I post on here. You are also going off topic, and I really doubt that anyone is interested in my finances and shopping list for models. Also, just to clarify I never suggested or called for Heljan or GaugeMaster to sell these models at a reduced price for any reason. I simply mentioned about prototypical formations and how much it would cost for anyone who wanted to buy both 86s. This was not a comment made with any malice, it was just stating a fact and that the total price for both models would/may be a significant amount of money. I have only made a few polite and balanced comments regarding the price of a few models from one manufacturer. These comments are just a small contribution to a forum with hundreds of other members on, so if everyone else is allowed to share their opinions then surely I am too? 

 

Most members will know that I never post, mean or imply anything negative towards any other member, retailer or manufacturer. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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14 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Hi Chaps,

 

I've have worked in engineering for most of my life and I am well aware of how much it costs to set up a facility and equip it with the bare minimum of machinery let alone produce finely detailed and accurate models.

 

The only thing that surprises me me is that they are as cheap as they are for what you get.

 

Gibbo.

 

You think locomotive models are cheap?...far from cheap too be honest considering they are all full of tooling, livery, colour, manufacturing and QC issues so @£229.95 RRP DCC Ready Class 86 (incl. Heljan Class 47 by GC)  it literally needs to be near perfect to sell at that price or even discounted from that price.

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I think there has been a disproportionate rise in the cost of our models over recent years. I realise that the Chinese have increased their manufacturing costs a lot since the Hornby MN, one of the first of the 'new generation' models, but the quality has not matched the price rises. Just ask yourself why do we keep getting 're-tooled' models? For what we are being charged, I'd expect it to be right first time! It's not as if some of the prototypes aren't still around to be measured properly and photographed!

 

I still think manufacturers are on a slow road to pricing themselves out of the market or are trying to create an elitist hobby where they can charge a premium.

 

At the end of the day, it is still up to the individual to decide if what is being asked is worth it and if they think it is, pay it. If not leave it.

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2 hours ago, Mike at C&M said:

I don't know if this 'trick' is relevant, but this is what we did with our 'N' gauge Class 86s in BR Blue from Dapol.

 

We wondered whether we could sell 250 units of the same loco, so (the then) Dapol Dave suggested that if we could find 2 locomotives that looked identical, simply do 125 of each, by doing two different tampo-prints on a run of blue liveried locomotives.

 

Therefore, take a run of Powerhaul liveried 86s, and print half of them as 86.622, and half of them as 86.637.

 

So now is the point where someone points out that 86.622 and 86.637 are very different, and you cannot use the above 'trick'

 

 

 

Were they commissioned? This may make a difference by increasing the total number produced.

A standard manufacturer issue would usually be produced in larger quantities so they may not care about doing different numbers.

But since Accurascale & Cavalex have recently produced (or are about to produce) alternative numbered wagons, who knows what Heljan may do?

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3 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

Hi Mike, 

 

Thank you for raising the points that you have. I didn't think of some of them and I can see why they would increase the overall price per locomotive. If the price is correct for each locomotive I can't help but think, have Heljan considered how many people that would buy or be interested in buying these models a) could afford to and b) could justify spending that amount of money per model. For example if a customer wanted to buy both of the Freightliner Powerhaul 86s to run as a pair, as is prototypical most of the time in reality, that would cost £460 and with DCC Decoders for a DCC user, nearly £500. That's without either of the locomotives been fitted with sound. If the price is correct, I just can't help but think that they are pricing the majority of potential customers who ordinarily would buy these models out of buying them. I, alike others who have posted above couldn't afford and I wouldn't be able to justify spending almost £230 each on 47815, 86622 and 86637. Unfortunately, this would mean that I and many others would miss out. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

I agree that it is frustrating prices are increasing as rapidly as we are currently seeing, but collectively we asked for models to get better so we should accept an increase in price to reflect this.

This may sound cold but if this model has priced you out, then the old Hornby 86 may be a suitable alternative. The basic shape is good so this makes it a suitable candidate for detailing.

 

As for decoders, these are not in limited supply like the models themselves, so can always be added at a later date. It is what I have done with my most recent purchases.

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47 minutes ago, Wagpnmaster said:

I think there has been a disproportionate rise in the cost of our models over recent years. I realise that the Chinese have increased their manufacturing costs a lot since the Hornby MN, one of the first of the 'new generation' models, but the quality has not matched the price rises. Just ask yourself why do we keep getting 're-tooled' models? For what we are being charged, I'd expect it to be right first time! It's not as if some of the prototypes aren't still around to be measured properly and photographed!

 

I still think manufacturers are on a slow road to pricing themselves out of the market or are trying to create an elitist hobby where they can charge a premium.

 

At the end of the day, it is still up to the individual to decide if what is being asked is worth it and if they think it is, pay it. If not leave it.

Just buy the Hornby Railroad stuff, thats cheap.    Charlie

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I doubt the incoming soon AL6 model is being turned out in Frightliner wavy snot livery, they never carried it, so presumably Gaugemaster are commissioning theirs from the next model, (the 86/4 and subsequent rebuilds), which might explain some of the price differential, and which is not due until next year according to the usual sources, we've only seen a test EP yet and no livery/artwork test models.  So, more time to save up.

Or not, as the case may be.

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Yikes!! £229.95 for the Class 86??? That's just insane. I now know I can get custom built models for less.

 

Oddly enough GM seems to think the Heljan Class 86 is 8-pin DCC ready? That makes me wonder, have they made more typos?? I.e. price? Or are they issuing the older Heljan Class 86 tooling (the did that with the Class 26/27/33).

 

Either way £229.95 is absolutely ridiculous...as much as I wanted a Freightliner Powerhaul Class 86, I think I need my organs. I really don't think licensing fees are so high. Other manufacturers have done the Freightliner Powerhaul livery - Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann and Hatton's most recently. I also don't understand why Freightliner would charge such a high licensing fee for an older livery?

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8 hours ago, charliepetty said:

Just buy the Hornby Railroad stuff, thats cheap.    Charlie

 

Yes it is Charlie and good option for those that feel prices are a little high.

 

But put it this way. I have a 25kV ohle section and obviously want suitable locos. So the AL6 is perfect. However, my time period ends by 1970. I do have the Hornby Class 87 and 90, but they are out of my time period. I would have liked to update them to the latest versions and would have bought them if they were more reasonably priced. A casual purchase if you like as they would have been rarely run. So instead, I'm sticking with my 'Railroad' versions. 

 

How many more people feel as I do and how many 'casual' purchases are the manufacturers losing as a result? Yes, we all want better models and they will cost more, but there comes a point where it's difficult to justify.

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6 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Or are they issuing the older Heljan Class 86 tooling (the did that with the Class 26/27/33).

 

I was thinking the same thing - is '8-pin DCC' really an error? I think Heljan Ben said he wasn't happy about the recent Gaugemaster Collection class 33s being from the old tooling, but it was agreed before his tenure. Perhaps the 86s were also agreed beforehand?

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1 hour ago, stovepipe said:

 

I was thinking the same thing - is '8-pin DCC' really an error? I think Heljan Ben said he wasn't happy about the recent Gaugemaster Collection class 33s being from the old tooling, but it was agreed before his tenure. Perhaps the 86s were also agreed beforehand?

 

I recall someone saying the emailed GM. Hope we can get some clarification soon. 

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18 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

Yeah but I've never witnessed anything quite like this, the most is probably around £180 but £229.95 is the ultimate p*ss take.

 

It looks like its the same £229.95 price for several exclusive Class 47s using the new tooling too and some of them look to be ex-BR liveries so shouldn't have licencing fees. Ouch!!! They're really easy to pass on at that price.

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20 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

It looks like its the same £229.95 price for several exclusive Class 47s using the new tooling too and some of them look to be ex-BR liveries so shouldn't have licencing fees. Ouch!!! They're really easy to pass on at that price.

 

Quite right... I don't think licensing has anything to do with the price hike. 

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17 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

If the price is correct for each locomotive I can't help but think, have Heljan considered how many people that would buy or be interested in buying these models a) could afford to and b) could justify spending that amount of money per model.

 

Let's avoid casting aspersions. Gaugemaster is setting the price of £229.95, based on making a profit on the price Heljan is selling the locos to them.

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17 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

So the Gaugemaster Collection models are also sold via other retailers?...apologies but not sure on this as I haven't purchased GC models before.

These Class 86s, and a few of the Class 47s are now showing on the Gaugemaster Trade Portal, so yes they will be available through many other retailers.

 

Most of the Gaugemaster Collection are standard models, but with different liveries from those available within the general ranges of the manufacturer. For example, Heljan have announced a number of Class 86/4s and 86/6s in different liveries, but it is Gaugemaster who have commissioned the Freightliner Powerhaul livery.

    The main difference between normal limited edition commissions and Gaugemaster's commissions, is that Gaugemaster then make their models available to their trade customers.

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3 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

Let's avoid casting aspersions. Gaugemaster is setting the price of £229.95, based on making a profit on the price Heljan is selling the locos to them.

 

Yes  -  I notice that nobody has mentioned anything at all about the elephant in the room

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/chapters/95

 

 we also have to pay Customs and Excise 20% from January to import from the EU

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Hi all, 

 

Hope you are all well? 

 

I have been in touch with GaugeMaster today and they have confirmed the following regarding the Class 47s and Class 86s that were announced via their website over the weekend:

 

  • The price of these locomotives at £229.95 each for DCC Ready models is correct
  • They are all due to be released next year in 2021 but their is currently no scheduled month for them to arrive
  • The locomotives can be pre-ordered via the website and no payment will be taken until the models are about to be dispatched
  • All of these locomotives are exclusive to the GaugeMaster Collection but from what I can gather won't come with certificates
  • All of the locomotives will be 8 Pin DCC Ready
  • The latest Class 47 and Class 86 tooling will be used to produce these models (although if this is correct then I am assuming that the 8 Pin DCC Ready piece of information means that both classes will actually be 21 Pin DCC Ready, as the latest tooling offers 21 Pin functionality from what I have seen online. So I am assuming that the 8 Pin functionality is an error). 

All of these locomotives will be produced by Heljan for the GaugeMaster Collection.

 

I hope that this information is of use. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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33 minutes ago, letterspider said:

 

Yes  -  I notice that nobody has mentioned anything at all about the elephant in the room

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/chapters/95

 

 we also have to pay Customs and Excise 20% from January to import from the EU

 

Not so, see https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/headings/9503?currency=EUR

 

Yes you will have to pay 20% VAT - but thats no different to the current situation (or that over the past decades while we were in the EU) where 20% of the money you pay to your retailer goes to HM Government

 

Toys are 0% rated under WTO trade rules - something modellers should remember the next time they start winging about their playthings being refereed to as 'toys'.

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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19 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

You think locomotive models are cheap?...far from cheap too be honest considering they are all full of tooling, livery, colour, manufacturing and QC issues so @£229.95 RRP DCC Ready Class 86 (incl. Heljan Class 47 by GC)  it literally needs to be near perfect to sell at that price or even discounted from that price.

Hi There,

 

I do not think that models are cheap.

 

I do however, knowing what it costs to run a factory, know that certain models are relatively cheap considering what goes into their production, that is quite a different premise from saying models are cheap.

 

As an aside, I also know that being misquoted is extremely cheap.

 

Gibbo.

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