Heljan announce re-tooled Class 86 in OO

[classy52]

20 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Hi Chaps,

 

I've have worked in engineering for most of my life and I am well aware of how much it costs to set up a facility and equip it with the bare minimum of machinery let alone produce finely detailed and accurate models.

 

The only thing that surprises me me is that they are as cheap as they are for what you get.

 

Gibbo.

 

6 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi There,

 

I do not think that models are cheap.

 

I do however, knowing what it costs to run a factory, know that certain models are relatively cheap considering what goes into their production, that is quite a different premise from saying models are cheap.

 

As an aside, I also know that being misquoted is extremely cheap.

 

Gibbo.

 

Glad you think models are now not cheap but Gaugemaster are not running a factory all on their own with associated overheads just so you know and that unwarranted cheap shot at the end is just lazy...I have added your original post to show everyone I didn't misquote you ok, the bit where you said they are cheap for what you get is highlighted in bold red.

Right, now we've got that straightened out over to you ...

[Gibbo675]

31 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

 

Glad you think models are now not cheap but Gaugemaster are not running a factory all on their own with associated overheads just so you know and that unwarranted cheap shot at the end is just lazy...I have added your original post to show everyone I didn't misquote you ok, the bit where you said they are cheap for what you get is highlighted in bold red.

Right, now we've got that straightened out over to you ...

QED

[letterspider]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not so, see https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/headings/9503?currency=EUR

 

Yes you will have to pay 20% VAT - but thats no different to the current situation (or that over the past decades while we were in the EU) where 20% of the money you pay to your retailer goes to HM Government

 

Toys are 0% rated under WTO trade rules - something modellers should remember the next time they start winging about their playthings being refereed to as 'toys'.

 

 

 

Yes but you will also have to pay 20% on the cost of any digital business. So for example let's say you were commissioning a limited edition model by Heljan and sending CADS and livery samples etc. across the UK / EU border. These constitute digital services where VAT will have to be paid in a country where VAT is higher. When the item is sold the UK 20% will be on top of that.

All this extra paperwork on both sides of the border will cost time and money and that eventually will be passed on to the consumer

 

 

[classy52]

11 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

QED

 

Well good try but at least you have a fanboy who may know what it means and still expresses with emoji's 

[Ouroborus]

13 minutes ago, letterspider said:

 

Yes but you will also have to pay 20% on the cost of any digital business. So for example let's say you were commissioning a limited edition model by Heljan and sending CADS and livery samples etc. across the UK / EU border. These constitute digital services where VAT will have to be paid in a country where VAT is higher. When the item is sold the UK 20% will be on top of that.

All this extra paperwork on both sides of the border will cost time and money and that eventually will be passed on to the consumer

 

 

 

Not really paperwork any more though is it?  Just a few clicks here and there.

[newbryford]

21 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

 

 

The only thing that surprises me me is that they are as cheap as they are for what you get.

 

Gibbo.

 

14 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

Well good try but at least you have a fanboy who may know what it means and still expresses with emoji's 

FFS.

You completely and utterly misunderstood what Gibbo had typed

I'll alter it to make it more understandable

Gibbo is quite surprised that they aren't actually MORE expensive than what we actually pay for.

 

Is that better?

 

 

[classy52]

9 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

FFS.

You completely and utterly misunderstood what Gibbo had typed

I'll alter it to make it more understandable

Gibbo is quite surprised that they aren't actually MORE expensive than what we actually pay for.

 

Is that better?

 

 

 

Twist it all you like but he stated models are cheap in his eyes for what we get and I countered that with no they are not and highlighted why, look we can back & forth on every word and interpret or dissect them all we like but at the end of the day paying what we do for model locomotives is getting ridiculous (but strangely not from Accurascale, Hattons or Dapol) and I think everyone apart from Bachmann's owners Kader do not have exclusive ownership to factories or facilities (I may be be wrong so please correct me if required) thus you cannot lay the blame on that which Gibbo has alluded to in his post.

Don't get me wrong I respect Gibbo's take on experience with manufacturing in his engineering capacity but it isn't within the model railway business and again for me he alluded to the fact that everyone are running their own factories or facilities causing massive overheads and accompanying price hikes which isn't the case thus you cannot lay the blame for these increases on that justification alone especially when you're talking about Gaugemaster/Heljan Class 86 or even the new Class 47 in the other thread being priced at @£229.95 DCC Ready.

Instead of everyone being smart arses with emoji's & Latin references give me some proper counter and yes if we are still interpreting posts differently then we'll just agree to disagree as they say and move on.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi There,

 

I do not think that models are cheap.

 

I do however, knowing what it costs to run a factory, know that certain models are relatively cheap considering what goes into their production, that is quite a different premise from saying models are cheap.

 

As an aside, I also know that being misquoted is extremely cheap.

 

Gibbo.

 

Getting misquoted happens a lot on this forum. You should be used to that by now. 

I sometimes get the feeling people go out of their way to prove others wrong, often by quoting only half a post.

 

I understand your view on the price of models.

Tooling is very expensive. How many models does a manufacturer want to sell to recover the cost of the tooling? How many will they sell?

Lower volume models which can't justify the high cost of injection moulding tooling may be cast with resin. Resin is relatively expensive, the models are nowhere near as fine as with injection moulding & the moulds also degrade after a lot fewer castings.

 

I have never tried building a loco from scratch but I have recently tried making some buildings. If I had done this because I thought it was a cheaper option to buying RTR ones, I would have been sorely disappointed. They probably cost me 2-3 times as much to make, but the benefit to me is that I have exactly the building I want. This would not be true if I tried building a class 86.

 

At the end of the day, we all vote with our wallets. If Heljan make a profit from the model, they probably won't care that 200 modellers have found their product too expensive.

[PM47079]

On 08/11/2020 at 21:47, Mike at C&M said:

I don't know if this 'trick' is relevant, but this is what we did with our 'N' gauge Class 86s in BR Blue from Dapol.

 

We wondered whether we could sell 250 units of the same loco, so (the then) Dapol Dave suggested that if we could find 2 locomotives that looked identical, simply do 125 of each, by doing two different tampo-prints on a run of blue liveried locomotives.

 

Therefore, take a run of Powerhaul liveried 86s, and print half of them as 86.622, and half of them as 86.637.

 

So now is the point where someone points out that 86.622 and 86.637 are very different, and you cannot use the above 'trick'

 

 

86637 has the older cab doors with no lower handle. 86622 has the newer style with lower handle on. Apart from that there isn't really any difference. 

[Roy Langridge]

3 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

Twist it all you like but he stated models are cheap in his eyes for what we get and I countered that with no they are not and highlighted why, look we can back & forth on every word and interpret or dissect them all we like but at the end of the day paying what we do for model locomotives is getting ridiculous (but strangely not from Accurascale, Hattons or Dapol) and I think everyone apart from Bachmann's owners Kader do not have exclusive ownership to factories or facilities (I may be be wrong so please correct me if required) thus you cannot lay the blame on that which Gibbo has alluded to in his post.

Come on Classy52, nobody twisted anything and you did misquote Gibbo675. He (as you now state) said “cheap for what you get”, not just “cheap” as you then replied. There is a vast difference in meaning between thise two. 
 

No twisting there, just a simple reflection on what was actually posted. Time for you to recognise that difference and apologise to Gibbo675?

 

Roy

[wombatofludham]

Before Andy gets out his Big 'Ommer of STFU, perhaps we should look at planet reality:

 

1) Gaugemaster have it appears commissioned some additional liveries on as yet produced items from Heljan.

2) They've set a price for them that they feel is commercially right for them.

 

3) If they are right and they sell out, Gaugemaster will be very happy, and those that bought the items will be happy too as they now own something they were happy to buy at the advertised price.  Win win all round.

4) If they are wrong, then Gaugemaster will have learned a lesson in UK model railway economics, and will presumably have to dispose of them at reduced prices, which means those who do buy will be happy because they bought the loco they want, at less than they thought they would have to pay.

 

5) Launching 0% tariff toys from the pram on this and other forums will not make a jot of difference.  Gaugemaster will still order their special editions, and put them to market at the price they deem is right for them.  Either they will succeed or not.  They won't take any notice of this thread.

6) I understand that a lot of railway modellers are being priced out of the hobby, something Hornby seem to have noticed and are trying to do something about - but, let's not forget, when they tried to "design clever" to bring down the costs of models a few years back, the contemptuous responses they got back from 'ereabouts made them think again.  Model price inflation is our fault.  We wanted super details and working gizmos, but expected them at Triang prices.  Doesn't work like that.  If you want to see who is to blame for prices heading north, look in the mirror.

I wish models were a lot cheaper, I'd buy more, but they are the price they are and I work around it.  If it gets to the point where I can't afford something, I'll not buy it, and move on, but me lashing out like Trump on a model railway social media outlet isn't going to change the economic planning of model manufacturers or commissioners.

Moving on, I wonder if anyone has heard if the first batch of AL6s has left China yet?  Ben in the WOR interview suggested they would be here before the end of the year, which suggests that they should be on a slow boat from China by now.

[MGR Hooper!]

2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I understand that a lot of railway modellers are being priced out of the hobby, something Hornby seem to have noticed and are trying to do something about - but, let's not forget, when they tried to "design clever" to bring down the costs of models a few years back, the contemptuous responses they got back from 'ereabouts made them think again.  Model price inflation is our fault.  We wanted super details and working gizmos, but expected them at Triang prices.  Doesn't work like that.  If you want to see who is to blame for prices heading north, look in the mirror.
 

Probably the best and most sensible thing I've heard on rmweb.... 

[Legend]

5 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Before Andy gets out his Big 'Ommer of STFU, perhaps we should look at planet reality:

 

1) Gaugemaster have it appears commissioned some additional liveries on as yet produced items from Heljan.

2) They've set a price for them that they feel is commercially right for them.

 

3) If they are right and they sell out, Gaugemaster will be very happy, and those that bought the items will be happy too as they now own something they were happy to buy at the advertised price.  Win win all round.

4) If they are wrong, then Gaugemaster will have learned a lesson in UK model railway economics, and will presumably have to dispose of them at reduced prices, which means those who do buy will be happy because they bought the loco they want, at less than they thought they would have to pay.

 

5) Launching 0% tariff toys from the pram on this and other forums will not make a jot of difference.  Gaugemaster will still order their special editions, and put them to market at the price they deem is right for them.  Either they will succeed or not.  They won't take any notice of this thread.

6) I understand that a lot of railway modellers are being priced out of the hobby, something Hornby seem to have noticed and are trying to do something about - but, let's not forget, when they tried to "design clever" to bring down the costs of models a few years back, the contemptuous responses they got back from 'ereabouts made them think again.  Model price inflation is our fault.  We wanted super details and working gizmos, but expected them at Triang prices.  Doesn't work like that.  If you want to see who is to blame for prices heading north, look in the mirror.

I wish models were a lot cheaper, I'd buy more, but they are the price they are and I work around it.  If it gets to the point where I can't afford something, I'll not buy it, and move on, but me lashing out like Trump on a model railway social media outlet isn't going to change the economic planning of model manufacturers or commissioners.

Moving on, I wonder if anyone has heard if the first batch of AL6s has left China yet?  Ben in the WOR interview suggested they would be here before the end of the year, which suggests that they should be on a slow boat from China by now.

Jenny  Kirk suggested yesterday , after having an interview with Ben Jones of Heljan , that there had been an issue at the factory  and that the 86s were slightly delayed 

[Ouroborus]

All of the non weathered 86/0's are £161 (SRP £189) at Kernow,  all of the 86/4s (and 47's) are £195. (SRP £229)   

 

At Gaugemaster, the 86/0s are at £189, (the SRP) whilst the 86/4 and 86/6 are TBA.

Before we pile into Gaugemaster, perhaps worth noting that what they're asking for the Powerhaul 86/6 is the SRP of what the 86/6 is elsewhere.   Maybe they are yet to apply the retailer discounts.  Perhaps. 

As an aside, whilst browsing, noticeable that a number of the bigger retailers don't have the Heljan 86 available to purchase/pre-order, unless they're just waiting for it to come into stock

[classy52]

9 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Come on Classy52, nobody twisted anything and you did misquote Gibbo675. He (as you now state) said “cheap for what you get”, not just “cheap” as you then replied. There is a vast difference in meaning between thise two. 
 

No twisting there, just a simple reflection on what was actually posted. Time for you to recognise that difference and apologise to Gibbo675?

 

Roy

 

As you know its all about interpretation of what people say especially on forums such as this one and yes things can snowball or get out of hand whether rightly or wrongly because of interpretation, if we could all sit there at a club, exhibition or pub and discuss things even this topic it would have been understood, agreed or even debated in a heartbeat but yes we all suffer the curse of online discussion where we type what's in our head and pray it comes out as intended and because we all read things differently there are situations when it gets out of control causing angst & frustration where there should be none, this more than likely happens in every thread on RMWeb everyday.

We would have all interpreted Gibbo675's post in a different way and I interpreted in a manner that he said he feels models are cheap for what we get and I just responded in disagreement with that and I stated why I disagreed thus it wasn't anything major but when he responded to say otherwise that is fine but to go on and accuse me of taking an extremely cheap shot by apparently misquoting well this to me was completely unwarranted because that was no way my intention but this bit seems to be lost on most people reading the exchanges and again it comes down to interpretation doesn't it?

Yes I apologise to Gibbo675 or to anyone else if I had misquoted or misinterpreted the OP but like I said its down each individual interpretation and none of us are perfect and online forums are the proverbial minefield when it comes to discussions.

Now if you all feel Gibbo675 was justified in directing an unwarranted accusation at me or for other members to write utterly misquoted crappy responses to fellow members for no reason but don't feel they should apologise then that is your prerogative because that's just the way it is in these forums and I will always push back when accused and defend other members if required....now let's get back to the Heljan 86 and why we can or can't afford a £200 plus DCC Ready AC Loco from the GC or how good it will be and buy it anyway.

Edited November 10, 2020 by classy52

[walrus]

Perhaps worth noting the established wisdom that words convey only 7% of communication; 38% is tone of voice and 55% body language.....

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

So I'm just thinking out loud for a minute...

 

I understand that because we as modellers and collectors have been demanding higher levels of detailing and more DCC functionality in recent years inevitably the prices of these models are going to increase. I'm going to form an assumption and say that many of us to some extent, don't mind paying increased prices for models, on the basis that we are getting more value for money, especially in those cases at the moment where particular models are been retooled and the new tool presents more detailing and DCC functionality than the predecessor model. But, and this is a big but and where things may become more complex in terms of if potential customers will decide to buy models or not, their becomes a point where the price of certain models weather they be original tooling or new tooling, becomes more difficult for potential customers to justify and/or afford. Of course we all know that no one if forced to buy any model/s, but if particular models are been produced and advertised at higher prices than what we have previously seen, then the manufacturer and/or the retailer/stockist selling these models must be expecting that at least some people will buy them. This would consequently suggest that even for models at a premium price, that their is a market for them in OO Gauge in ready to run form to some extent, but to exactly what extent and thinking about the exact numbers of people who buy each model is unknown. I am now becoming curious and thinking that are their some modellers and collectors who will buy any model that they like regardless of the price and that their will be other modellers and collectors who have a cut off price point in which they are willing to pay up to, and then not move beyond, even if they would really like a particular model. Their may quite well be a happy medium of those who buy some models that they would like whilst at the same time having a cut off price for others. My point being here is that at this stage the market is potentially becoming more separated and dwindled down in terms of individual customers, their likes, interests and what they are willing to spend on particular models. 

 

From this bit of thinking it's easy to see how complex and quite unique the market can be for model railways depending upon the type of product or model in question and it's price. In turn this forms a vast amount of consideration and deliberation from modellers and collectors alike as to which models they will buy and which they won't. Add into the mix that in 2020 their is a such a wide and vast amount of choice for modellers and collectors in terms of the different types of models which are available, and the fact that their are now many instances in which more than one manufacturer produces the same model. With this in mind it becomes easy to see just how much and how far we as modellers and collectors have to dwindle down our shopping lists to just buy the models that we would like the most. 

 

This isn't a post about or against Heljan, GaugeMaster, any other manufacturer, any retailer/stockist or any member. I am just thinking out loud about the potential market size for the various models that are currently available to us. 

 

Going back more firmly onto the topic of the Heljan 86s it is nice and welcome news that GaugeMaster will be stocking 622 and 637 in Freightliner Powerhaul livery. As Heljan are producing 609 in Freightliner Green in their standard range this will offer modellers and collectors the chance to buy both of the most recent liveries worn by the Freightliner 86s. It will also give modellers and collectors the opportunity to form a wider variety of formations, for example a Green 86 could be bought alongside a Powerhaul liveried 86, or their is an opportunity to buy both Powerhaul liveried 86s to create a matching paired formation. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[adb968008]

Oh dear.

 

 

 

[Darius43]

After reading through all of this angst I am still none the wiser as to whether the pantograph is going to be mounted lower or not on the production models.

 

Until then I think I’ll stick with my modified Hornby 86
 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[cravensdmufan]

12 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

After reading through all of this angst I am still none the wiser as to whether the pantograph is going to be mounted lower or not on the production models.

 

Until then I think I’ll stick with my modified Hornby 86
 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

That loco looks fantastic Darius - love the pantograph, which I assume is the Sommerfelt one?  Despite being HO it looks just right to me, and of course it can be used to pick up from the catenary wire if desired.

 

That pantograph has been available for many years, which begs the question why our UK 00 models have never been fitted with anything as good.  Maybe price?

 

Anyway, let's hope that Heljan come up with one that's of equal quality.  

[Darius43]

2 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

That loco looks fantastic Darius - love the pantograph, which I assume is the Sommerfelt one?  Despite being HO it looks just right to me, and of course it can be used to pick up from the catenary wire if desired.

 

That pantograph has been available for many years, which begs the question why our UK 00 models have never been fitted with anything as good.  Maybe price?

 

Anyway, let's hope that Heljan come up with one that's of equal quality.  

Thanks cravensdmufan.  It is indeed the Sommerfeld pantograph, which you can find on eBay occasionally for between £15 and £20.  
 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Hal Nail]

45 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

After reading through all of this angst 

 

Indeed.

The perfect antidote - marvellous modelling.

[wombatofludham]

Further to the Gaugemaster editions pricing debate, I've just had a Tweet from Hattons listing the Gaugemaster Edition 86s are on pre-order with them for £184 each.  The normal issue 86/4 and 86/6 are showing on the Hatton's website at £165 estimated.  So, my comments about Gaugemaster having form I stand by.  The Gaugemaster special edition Class 47s are similarly showing at a significant saving via Widnes.

As the yoof of today are fond of saying, "go figure".

[caradoc]

For anyone interested in prototype details, the British Transport Films Collection Volume 13 'On the Right Track' includes a 25 minute feature 'The Class 86 Locomotive', a 1970 training film for Drivers featuring E3162 extensively. Perhaps a bit dry in parts but I enjoyed it !

 

[martin_l_jones]

I'd love to understand the justification behind the additional £19 on the Gaugemaster Collection models. Presuming the manufacturing process is exactly the same for both types unless they are smaller batch sizes, the materials and process cost should be the same. It's the same pricing structure used on the Revolution JNAs sold exclusively by Kernow. Frustrating, but I guess you have a choice.....