Heljan announce re-tooled Class 86 in OO

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, martin_l_jones said:

I'd love to understand the justification behind the additional £19 on the Gaugemaster Collection models.

Its exclusive via Gaugemaster, they are allowed to make money and charge what they want.
Why is it no one complains about paying more for Chinese employees, yet begrudge British families the same ?

 

I would suggest its a window into what British manufacturing prices could look like, for those pining for UK production.

 

if they were not making it, you would need to DIY.. how much is a nameplate, transfers c£19 all in.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by adb968008

[martin_l_jones]

26 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Its exclusive via Gaugemaster, they are allowed to make money and charge what they want.
Why is it no one complains about paying more for Chinese employees, yet begrudge British families the same ?

 

I would suggest its a window into what British manufacturing prices could look like, for those pining for UK production.

 

if they were not making it, you would need to DIY.. how much is a nameplate, transfers c£19 all in.

 

 

 

Sorry, but it's got nothing to do with wages, the discussion point is the price difference between the standard and the exclusive as you put it.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, martin_l_jones said:

I'd love to understand the justification behind the additional £19 on the Gaugemaster Collection models. Presuming the manufacturing process is exactly the same for both types unless they are smaller batch sizes, the materials and process cost should be the same. It's the same pricing structure used on the Revolution JNAs sold exclusively by Kernow. Frustrating, but I guess you have a choice.....

Indeed you do.Consider the future prospects right now of the retail trade in the world of the railway modeller and then perhaps reflect on how fortunate we are to be well served by the likes of Gaugemaster, be they large or small.All retailer commissioned products command a premium and why should this not be so.These are difficult times for us all and we rely on a healthy commercial structure to sustain us .We may speculate on pricing structures but that’s all it amounts to...pure speculation. We ultimately have not the faintest idea. As for frustration,well there are more pressing needs for that condition. 

 

[Craig1989]

I’ve got the 2 gaugemaster freightliner 86s and the rog 47 on order from kernow and the 2 other freightliner 86s and cs 86 on order from rails. I’m surprised with Heljan knowing that Bachmann and accurascale have done it I’m surprised they haven’t tried to motorise the pantograph 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, martin_l_jones said:

 

Sorry, but it's got nothing to do with wages, the discussion point is the price difference between the standard and the exclusive as you put it.

of course its wages Gaugemaster isnt a charity.

They have comissioned them, they are offering them to the trade and are retaining something for their time, money and efforts.

 

Are you expecting them to put up the cash, and pass them around with nothing in it for them ? Do it for love ?

 

Ive noticed the more people want something, the more whinging people do, in hope that by complaining enough, they can damage sales to the point the price falls.

 

If they didnt make them a few things would happen.., not all negative.

 

1. No one could buy them.

2. No squealing about the price

3. People would have to buy a different one and use your own talents to create it

4. in DIY, there would have less time to complain here as they would be modelling.

 

At the end of the day no one is being forced to buy them.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by adb968008

[7013]

Bachmann, Rapido and a whole host of continental manufacturuers offer operating pantographs, I do not model electric locos, but would not rule out buying one (probably Cl92 or a Cl88/93 if the latter ever got built), but it does seem a bit of a shame that this is not offered as an option. Electric locos do look a bit silly running with a pantograph stretched into thin air or in the lowered position. Even if OHLE is dummy on most layouts the option of having the raising and lowering pantograph would look good, just as lights, cab lights the various noises locos make are now normal to most DCC locos. Just a thought really, it may cost a bit more but I am sure there would be lots of takers.

[Hal Nail]

"House!"

 

which blue

why do they cost so much

do the cab doors open/are the handles wrong

why aren't the pantographs more accurate and

why don't they work.

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

"House!"

 

which blue

why do they cost so much

do the cab doors open/are the handles wrong

why aren't the pantographs more accurate and

why don't they work.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking it’s Modellers BS Bingo myself.
 

Edited November 17, 2020 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

On 16/11/2020 at 19:26, martin_l_jones said:

I'd love to understand the justification behind the additional £19 on the Gaugemaster Collection models. Presuming the manufacturing process is exactly the same for both types unless they are smaller batch sizes, the materials and process cost should be the same. It's the same pricing structure used on the Revolution JNAs sold exclusively by Kernow. Frustrating, but I guess you have a choice.....

it's quite simple, as discussed recently by Kernow - if you commission your own models you control the price as the model is peculiar to your business and no-one else has them.  It's why they didn't have to immediately drop the prices of 02s when sales slowed because they knew they had the only 02 models rtr.

 

For Gaugemaster, they control the price of their models, if other retailers purchase them off Gaugemaster as they do then Gaugemaster have still got the value they want from those models even if the retailer then slightly undercuts them and they wont have been forced to drop their wholesale price.

 

I would imagine as others have also said, they have built in some inflation based on when they are going to be available to buy.

Edited November 17, 2020 by woodenhead

[MRDBLUE17]

Hi everyone,

 

I was originally going to order a pair of Freightliner 86’s and renumber one of them. The GM collection editions however have added a welcome livery choice so 86622 in powerhaul will join the standard release and as GM supply to the trade means my local model shop can order both in for me. Plenty of time to sell some excess to fund them between now and release and by supporting a smaller shop I’ll get the retailer discounts off RRP so it’s a bit of win win all round. 
 

Cheers

Mark

[Northern Electric]

RE locos that run in pairs - I may be wrong, but didn't Dapol offer "dummy" versions i.e. unmotorised versions off their N-gauge 86/6s at a lower price?

 

I wonder if this is an option Heljan might consider with their RFD and Freightliner variants which (aside from 86501) have always run in pairs?

 

I'm sure a large proportion of the cost of modern locomotives goes on the complex motor/drive system and all the electronics, more than the bits we can see from the outside. So there would presumably be big savings possible by offering dummy locos as an option along side the RTR equivalents.

This would also suit modellers who are tempted by an AC electric to drag "away from the wires" but can't justify the price of a full RTR example.

It also provides a more affordable option for those who don't have a layout and buy locomotives as static exhibits.

Definitely worth considering IMO.

 

[Legend]

3 minutes ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

RE locos that run in pairs - I may be wrong, but didn't Dapol offer "dummy" versions i.e. unmotorised versions off their N-gauge 86/6s at a lower price?

 

I wonder if this is an option Heljan might consider with their RFD and Freightliner variants which (aside from 86501) have always run in pairs?

 

I'm sure a large proportion of the cost of modern locomotives goes on the complex motor/drive system and all the electronics, more than the bits we can see from the outside. So there would presumably be big savings possible by offering dummy locos as an option along side the RTR equivalents.

This would also suit modellers who are tempted by an AC electric to drag "away from the wires" but can't justify the price of a full RTR example.

It also provides a more affordable option for those who don't have a layout and buy locomotives as static exhibits.

Definitely worth considering IMO.

 

It does seem odd but manufacturers do state that it’s just as easy  supplying a loco with motor than one without . I suppose they would have design costs for the dummy bogie and chassis attachment . Heljan is a case in point , which is why the 25 Ethel which  was non powered will still have a motor . I suppose it just costs too much to make the change , incredible as that seems . 

[Roy Langridge]

7 minutes ago, Legend said:

Heljan is a case in point , which is why the 25 Ethel which  was non powered will still have a motor . I suppose it just costs too much to make the change , incredible as that seems . 

Or is it? I agree that it wasn’t having a motor, then it was, but in the video with Andy Y and Ben a month or so back it was stated as not having a motor again. 
 

Roy

[Northern Electric]

That interesting to hear, though I can't think why.

There shouldn't need to be any "design work" involved as such.  All the standard parts could be used, just minus the motor, PCB, Driveshafts/gears and lighting boards etc..   

Anyway I am not a manufacturing expert and I can understand the preference toward standardisation.  It was just an idea I thought I'd put out there as it seems to have been done successfully (?) once before.

 

 

As far as the RRP - I think the standard AL6 model RRP seems fair.  I vaguely recall the RRP of the old model 86 being something in the region of £130 circa 2010.  So about £165 for what will be an updated and improved model for 2021 seems acceptable to me, and is comparable with other offerings in the same class.

I recently bought a new Bachmann Class 90 (£152) and was astounded by how complex it's internal construction was, even compared to their own Class 85 that came out just 9 years ago. I think it's fair to say that by and large we still get what we pay for.

 

That said, I did notice in one of the more recent Bachmann catalogues that the RRP for the Class 85 had climbed to £189...     Definitely more than inflation at play there!

 

I'm not sure why some people are getting so upset about the excessive markup on the limited edition GM model...?  It seems to me like Heljan have set a sensible price on the standard range and I'm sure many retailers will discount that further in time, and then of course second hand examples will begin to come onto the market...

So unless you were absolutely dead set on that specific edition, most of us won't be paying £230 for a DCC ready model or anything close to that.

 

As some previous posts have rightly pointed out, those on a budget (like myself) can pick up some second hand Hornby 86/87/90 models which, with a bit of time and effort, can be made to look really good.  I don't think it's realistic to say most people are in danger of being priced out of their hobby just because one retailer has chosen to put a rather excessive markup on one of their limited editions.  Based on past experience I'd be willing to bet when they actually hit the marked you'll be able to pick up a new one for under £150 (fingers crossed! )

 

 

[letterspider]

Assuming you pull out the motor and gears, the chassis would still be a very substantial dead weight.

It might not be healthy for the motored loco . You may then decide on a lighter (Hornby) chassis with a Heljan shell. Then after several months longer wish you hadn't compromised...?

In N gauge the difference in weight is less of a problem

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by letterspider

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

 

I'm sure a large proportion of the cost of modern locomotives goes on the complex motor/drive system and all the electronics, more than the bits we can see from the outside. So there would presumably be big savings possible by offering dummy locos as an option along side the RTR equivalents.

 

 

According to Ben in the World of Railways interview which can be seen on here, the biggest cost is actually the moulded parts, fitting them, painting them, adding any working lights with associated electronics, and the labour.  The cost of the motor was given as "a few dollars".

When you think about it it makes sense.  We know how fiddly fitting the few detailing bits are that we fit - putting together the hundreds of bits that go together to make a modern, superdetailed loco that we've all been screaming for takes time, lots of moulding capacity, and some seriously dextrous and clever people to put them together. Even simple liveries like Rail Blue will require multiple passes for the painters, and masks and tampo printers.  Then there's the need to recoup the cost of the mould manufacturing and design work.  None of this disappears just because there's no motor and associated gears.  All the rest of the pretty bits is still there and costing money to design, make and assemble, just with a few quid knocked off for the motor and some girl to plop it into the chassis.

It's not just Ben of Heljan who has said this, Jason at Rapido has made similar observations.  The problem would be with unmoored versions that people would expect them to be the price of a wagon or coach, yet would require 99% of the production cost of a loco.  

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, Legend said:

It does seem odd but manufacturers do state that it’s just as easy  supplying a loco with motor than one without . I suppose they would have design costs for the dummy bogie and chassis attachment . Heljan is a case in point , which is why the 25 Ethel which  was non powered will still have a motor . I suppose it just costs too much to make the change , incredible as that seems . 

A motor costs a couple of quid in China, if that.

The gears are just plastic on a sprue, again pennies.

I know whenever I strip a Heljan loco down and put it back, I can do it in around 15-30 mins

i’m sure staff in the factory do it in a few minutes.

 

in theory that few quid saving should multiply several % points higher as you go through middle men, but at the end of the day, the cost of painting, assembly, detailing, packaging, shipping remain unchanged...

 

if that translates into £10-£15 at the shop..ask yourself is that saving worth it ? - if the answer is still yes.. take the motor and gears out, put them on ebay and youve realised that saving for much more than the factory would.

Edited November 18, 2020 by adb968008

[MGR Hooper!]

4 hours ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

RE locos that run in pairs - I may be wrong, but didn't Dapol offer "dummy" versions i.e. unmotorised versions off their N-gauge 86/6s at a lower price?

 

I wonder if this is an option Heljan might consider with their RFD and Freightliner variants which (aside from 86501) have always run in pairs?

 

I'm sure a large proportion of the cost of modern locomotives goes on the complex motor/drive system and all the electronics, more than the bits we can see from the outside. So there would presumably be big savings possible by offering dummy locos as an option along side the RTR equivalents.

This would also suit modellers who are tempted by an AC electric to drag "away from the wires" but can't justify the price of a full RTR example.

It also provides a more affordable option for those who don't have a layout and buy locomotives as static exhibits.

Definitely worth considering IMO.

 

 

I'm afraid that isn't viable anymore. Dapol themselves don't offer dummy models anymore. They just don't sell and they cost far too much to produce. 

 

Remember when Dapol used to produce these is almost a decade ago and they've never produced them since. Manufacturing costs have almost doubled since then.

 

If you think about it, having a dummy would mean people still want some functionality like directional lighting and so on. 

 

The only cost that isn't included is the motor and 2 driveshafts. How much does that take away from the model - £10 max? The inky thing not having to be assembled then is the motor and connecting it to the gear tower via the driveshafts. How much will that save on assembly costs - £5? 

 

Would it be worth it if you're just saving £15? I highly doubt it. 

 

The motor and electronics are not that complex if you think about it. You will still require the PCB. A majority of the wiring comes from the DCC socket and lighting. All that will still have to be there either way. So that's not a massive saving at all. 

 

HTH? 

[Legend]

9 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Or is it? I agree that it wasn’t having a motor, then it was, but in the video with Andy Y and Ben a month or so back it was stated as not having a motor again. 
 

Roy

 Thanks Roy , I may stand corrected then . Apologies if misled anyone . 

[Roy Langridge]

49 minutes ago, Legend said:

 Thanks Roy , I may stand corrected then . Apologies if misled anyone . 

 

Not saying that you have, I truly don't know what is happening it really was a question in my post.  I find it all very confusing. 

Roy

[walrus]

Just for information....

 

in Australia SDS offer an unpowered version of the NR Class Co-Co. It is $235 (about  £130) compared to $375 (about £206).

[Northern Electric]

Point taken RE the cost/benefit of offering a dummy loco.  I thought (based on the prices I have payed for such parts from Bachmann) that the electronic bits made up a larger percentage of the total price than has been suggested.

In light of this, I wonder how Hornby managed to put together a business case to produce their Class 82/1 DVT?  

 

That was a stand alone model designed from scratch and, a somewhat unusual choice given there weren't (at that time) comparably detailed class 87 or 90 locomotives on the market to run it with.  In fact I remember how crude and outdated their own class 90 looked next to the DVT in those odd Virgin/EWS Charter packs they offered for a while.

Judging by the prices they fetch on eBay they are quite sought after.  I'd have thought with a new 87 and 90 now and the market and class 86/2 and 86/4 soon to join them, now would be an ideal time to produce another run....assuming of course that it proved to be a profitable venture the first time round!   ?

 

In any case, I am really enjoying this resurgence of interest in AC electrics and it is great that UK modellers are finally being offered a range of models of comparable quality and detail that like minded modellers on the continent have enjoyed for years.     Now if someone would just develop some catenary (Properly!) to go with them! 

 

[Northern Electric]

On a different note - A couple of examples of modelling on a budget - Here is a Class 91 and 86 (AL6) I did a few years back.   Both started out as cheap second hand Hornby items off eBay.   

The 91 was repainted, fitted with Shawplan nameplates, PH designs side skirts, modified class 92 pantograph, some tweaks to the bogie frames and my own LED lighting system using 1.5mm fiber optic cable.

 

The AL6  (my third attempt at one), and was a full repaint with Craftsman 86/0 conversion kit (anyone know what happened to them?), adapted Sommerfeld SF968 pantograph, SouthEastern flush glaze and as with the 91, etched details by shawplan.

 

I think each one cost me around of £60 in total to make including the donor locos.   That said, I will definitely be buying the new releases of these models when they become available, as much for the smoothness and quietness of the mechanism and enhanced lighting options as for the overall appearance.

[Wagonmaster]

They look great NorthernElectric 91! I too welcome the interest in ac electrics, but my period is a little older. Perhaps Heljan might consider Classes 82, 83 and 84? The 82 would probably be the most commercially viable with the number of liveries they carried, but I would quite like an 84.

 

Proper OHLE is a minefield. Round by me (WCML Coventry and Trent Valley), every post seems different. 

[cravensdmufan]

1 hour ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

On a different note - A couple of examples of modelling on a budget - Here is a Class 91 and 86 (AL6) I did a few years back.   Both started out as cheap second hand Hornby items off eBay.   

The 91 was repainted, fitted with Shawplan nameplates, PH designs side skirts, modified class 92 pantograph, some tweaks to the bogie frames and my own LED lighting system using 1.5mm fiber optic cable.

 

The AL6  (my third attempt at one), and was a full repaint with Craftsman 86/0 conversion kit (anyone know what happened to them?), adapted Sommerfeld SF968 pantograph, SouthEastern flush glaze and as with the 91, etched details by shawplan.

 

I think each one cost me around of £60 in total to make including the donor locos.   That said, I will definitely be buying the new releases of these models when they become available, as much for the smoothness and quietness of the mechanism and enhanced lighting options as for the overall appearance.

Merely hitting the button didn't seem adequate!  Your models look fantastic.