Carriage colour causing considerable confusion

[spikey]

I have a Hornby 4521A Gresley non-vestibuled suburban lav comp coach in what some retailers apparently think is BR crimson but what I feel sure is BR maroon.

 

The matching brake 3rd which I now want to buy seems to me to be Hornby R4522A.  However, some retailers reckon that one's crimson, not maroon!  Hence my problem.

 

I'm buying online and would prefer to avoid the hassle of returning an item because I've ordered the right thing in the wrong colour, so can anybody please tell me for sure if R4522A matches R4521A?

 

NB I'm old enough to remember the colour variation in Gresley teak, never mind the BR reds, but even so I don't want to end up with one coach crimson and one maroon.  Visiting a model shop to see before I buy is not an option, btw.

[Steamport Southport]

It might be worth comparing the photographs on the Hattons website.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/60164/Hornby_R4521A_Gresley_Non_Vestibuled_suburban_composite_coach_in_BR_maroon/StockDetail.aspx

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/60165/Hornby_R4522A_Gresley_Non_Vestibuled_suburban_3rd_class_brake_in_BR_maroon/StockDetail.aspx

 

They both seem to match each other in my view. But whether they are maroon or crimson is not clear. ISTR that it was discussed in a previous thread.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34532-gresley-suburbans/page-1

 

 

 

Jason

[Pint of Adnams]

I have a Hornby 4521A Gresley non-vestibuled suburban lav comp coach in what some retailers apparently think is BR crimson but what I feel sure is BR maroon.

 

The matching brake 3rd which I now want to buy seems to me to be Hornby R4522A.  However, some retailers reckon that one's crimson, not maroon!  Hence my problem.

 

I'm buying online and would prefer to avoid the hassle of returning an item because I've ordered the right thing in the wrong colour, so can anybody please tell me for sure if R4522A matches R4521A?

 

NB I'm old enough to remember the colour variation in Gresley teak, never mind the BR reds, but even so I don't want to end up with one coach crimson and one maroon.  Visiting a model shop to see before I buy is not an option, btw.

Both R4521A and R4522A are Crimson. The Hornby colour is quite dark, hence the confusion, but when compared to a Gresley Buffet in Maroon the difference is obvious. I have just dug out my models and double-checked, so you are safe in purchasing the Brake Third as both will be the same colour.

[spikey]

That's a relief!  Thank you very much indeed for that

[The Johnster]

Colour and being exact about it can be the subject of many a discussion, and reds/crimsons/maroons seem to attract a good amount of it.  I would be very hesitant to say that Hornby's crimson is wrong, or that Bachman's or anyone else's is right, but they are different!  At least they are both better than Airfix's odd rendition of maroon, which was a sort of purple and faded to a dark pink over time..  

 

It may be more important that all the coaches in a rake match than that they are 100% correct, but a look at photos of real coaches show many a different shade of the same livery within the same train, unless it is a new rake of which all the coaches have been painted at the same time.  A more typical prototype appearance will be of slight differences in hue and tone, with some being duller and some brighter.  Paint weathers differently on different surfaces as well, so a wooden bodied coach next to a steel one in the same train in the same livery may appear radically different.  

 

If it's any consolation, Southern Region modellers have several greens to confuse them, and don't get me started on green dmus...

Edited November 21, 2018 by The Johnster

[robmcg]

Colour and being exact about it can be the subject of many a discussion, and reds/crimsons/maroons seem to attract a good amount of it.  I would be very hesitant to say that Hornby's crimson is wrong, or that Bachman's or anyone else's is right, but they are different!  At least they are both better than Airfix's odd rendition of maroon, which was a sort of purple and faded to a dark pink over time..  

 

It may be more important that all the coaches in a rake match than that they are 100% correct, but a look at photos of real coaches show many a different shade of the same livery within the same train, unless it is a new rake of which all the coaches have been painted at the same time.  A more typical prototype appearance will be of slight differences in hue and tone, with some being duller and some brighter.  Paint weathers differently on different surfaces as well, so a wooden bodied coach next to a steel one in the same train in the same livery may appear radically different.  

 

If it's any consolation, Southern Region modellers have several greens to confuse them, and don't get me started on green dmus...

 

We could always drift into old men arguing about BR Brunswick green.  That'd be new.

[spikey]

And in my time working as a professional photographer, I learned a thing or two about the average person's colour vision, to say nothing of their colour discrimination.  Farnsworth-Munsell 100 Hue colour vision test anybody?  There's a simplified version here https://www.xrite.com/hue-test if you're curious.

 

PS Perfect score is zero.

Edited November 21, 2018 by spikey

[GreenGiraffe22]

 

 

PS Perfect score is zero.

 

Scored a 2, not too shabby, but my eyes have gone super blurry! :') 

[scottystitch]

And in my time working as a professional photographer, I learned a thing or two about the average person's colour vision, to say nothing of their colour discrimination.  Farnsworth-Munsell 100 Hue colour vision test anybody?  There's a simplified version here https://www.xrite.com/hue-test if you're curious.

 

PS Perfect score is zero.

I'd never seen a test such as that before, very interesting and quite difficult, the hue appearing to change depending upon what hue was next to it.

 

I scored 4, so I'm guessing that's quite good.......

[royaloak]

A score of 0 on my first attempt, excellent for a 52 year old.

[Steamport Southport]

 

Score: 0
Gender  Male
Select Age Range  40 - 49
Best Score for your Gender  0
Worst Score for your Gender  1690

 

 

I'm blind as a bat though. Good at close up work, terrible at distance.

 

 

 

Jason

[Tim Hall]

0, 54 years old. Would have been disappointed not to, as used to set tests like that using polypropylene plaques for potential colourmatchers for a large PP compounding plant on Teesside and train them. Also did customer colourmatches and supervised production of accurately coloured PP compound for the automotive industry.

[TheSignalEngineer]

We could always drift into old men arguing about BR Brunswick green.  That'd be new.

Doesn't bother me. In my modelling period most locos carried unlined crud livery. 

[Fenman]

I am rubbish at colour, half-blind, and yet still scored 0. I think the test is faulty...

 

Paul

[TheSignalEngineer]

It's an interesting test if done one eye at a time. Although each eye and both together are low single figures I get different colour charts. It also changes slightly on a different computer, different ambient light and how long I have been awake.

Regarding ambient light I remember using an emulsion paint which was supposed to be a pale grey, but it took on a distinct lilac shade at a particular period on a clear day.

[Philou]

Yay - 0 score and 68 at that! I agree with TheSignalEngineer that, in my case, my eyes are not balanced as in one eye I see slightly more blue and in the other more red. Maybe that helps in 'seeing' slight variations more easily?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Ceptic]

Score - 0

Gender - Male

Age - 75

[paulbb]

Talking of Southern colours, does the latest (R4817) Maunsell Kitchen /diner car match with to their latest Sothern region mark 1's in green?

The diner looks lighter ... but I am slightly colour blind with greens and blues.

[SRman]

I scored 0, and I'm in my 60s. I knew that I had good colour perception, but this allows me to prove it!!

I was a little sceptical because screens and monitors don't always render colours correctly and can be adjusted in many ways to suit individual users' needs, but the test uses relative colours within the ranges, so I would guess is quite fair. I do know that my laptop screen is not particularly good at rendering pale yellow shades (creams) correctly, which makes it difficult for me to use that to match paints or print colours.

[jonny777]

I've posted this before. However, while not likely to be a reliable guide to either crimson or maroon, it does show the kind of contrast which existed on relatively clean and/or newly painted stock in the 1950s. 

 

This is a screenshot from Marsden Rail Vol 1 - York and shows a crimson Mk1 BG ahead of a maroon Mk1 passenger coach. 

 

 

 

 

IMHO the Hornby coaches are neither crimson nor maroon, but we have debated the effects of trying to scale down colours on models for decades. 

[rasalmon]

For what it's worth, we (on Bluebell Railway) have by careful research settled upon BR Crimson Lake to be BS381C No. 540
As used on: https://www.flickr.com/photos/keith_duke/35991345370/in/album-72157683795725742/ (photo taken while snowing).

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/colour-alternatives.asp?cRange=BS Other&cRef=BS 540&metallic2=False&cDescription=Crimson

Range: RAL Classic

RAL 3004 "Purple red" is very close.

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by rasalmon
Updated e-paint link due to change on their web site.

[The Johnster]

Talking of Southern colours, does the latest (R4817) Maunsell Kitchen /diner car match with to their latest Sothern region mark 1's in green?

The diner looks lighter ... but I am slightly colour blind with greens and blues.

 

So, apparently, were the classical Greeks, who sometimes painted green seas and skies with blue grass.  So you can claim affinity with the likes of Socrates or Ulysses.

[No Decorum]

So, apparently, were the classical Greeks, who sometimes painted green seas and skies with blue grass.  So you can claim affinity with the likes of Socrates or Ulysses.

 

The Greeks did get to the Americas, then? Penetrating to the Blue Grass Country. I suppose they were cut off when Atlantis sank.

[The Johnster]

The Greeks did get to the Americas, then? Penetrating to the Blue Grass Country. I suppose they were cut off when Atlantis sank.

 

Makes sense.

[Butler Henderson]

Suppose what is lost in the mists of time now is how the crimson livery weathered - I can imagine with the general dirt of the steam railway between washes the coaches acquired a darker appearance.