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KRModels announce a GT3 Model


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3 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

When investing, crowd funding, call it what you will, into an organisationthat appears to be a "one man band" then the health of that "one man" is very important.  The Little Loco Company is a case in point.  As a one man band holding other people's money, do you have life/illness insurance so that in the event that anything happens to you the debts of KR models can be taken care of?

 

 

A very good point; when I was selling 00-sf Track Gauges I ensured that, in the event I was hit by a bus, those around me had instructions to ensure that anyone who'd sent money to me either received their Gauges or their money back. At worst there would've been a few hundred quid at stake (maybe a grand if it was money going to the manufacturer to pay for the machining of a new batch of Gauges.

In the case of the GT3 I imagine we're talking multiples of tens of thousands. 

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There’s a certain amount of due diligence which is seen as reasonable from which you can make up your minds, to either opt in or walk away. The responses here are past that point and are tantamount to prodding a dog with a stick then blaming it when it bites back.

 

I’ve seen this so many times with one man bands, who are dammed if they do respond and dammed if they don’t. If it was me I wouldn’t try to justify any further critism and walk away from the very few sales likely to be lost if any at all. Hopefully Keith will get to the end product which will speak for itself and will start to build a successful reputation based on results rather than trying to persuade the cynical few.

 

Keith, stick to the facts and don’t get drawn into any personal attacks, as for the perpetrators it’s a shame you choose to represent your hobby in this way  if you don’t like it, don’t invest, stop beating the dog with the stick.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, b33fy said:

There’s a certain amount of due diligence which is seen as reasonable from which you can make up your minds, to either opt in or walk away. The responses here are past that point and are tantamount to prodding a dog with a stick then blaming it when it bites back.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are unaware that two other one-man bands have gone down in the last couple of months, taking crowdfunders' money with them (OK, one is seeking a buyer and may yet live on, but the other is now in liquidation)

It's really not unreasonable to see something tangible before investing.

17 minutes ago, b33fy said:

Hopefully Keith will get to the end product which will speak for itself

+1

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1 hour ago, truffy said:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are unaware that two other one-man bands have gone down in the last couple of months, taking crowdfunders' money with them (OK, one is seeking a buyer and may yet live on, but the other is now in liquidation)

It's really not unreasonable to see something tangible before investing.

+1

 

Thanks truffy, I was aware of DJ models. Unfortunately crowdfunding is a high risk strategy for all involved. Whilst taking an enquiring stance and asking constructive questions may assist with the decision making process for the buyer/ investor, personal attacks and aggressive challenges are unhelpful at best. If the answers don’t satisfy then make the decision, don’t keep attacking.

 

Until crowdfunding projects progress there is little chance of something tangible and a high chance something may go wrong. No talking or any amount of questions are going to mitigate that, it’s the nature of the beast. If you still want to invest, put in money you would be prepared to loose. If you get an end product, happy days.

 

All I ask is for forum members to treat the guy with a bit of respect, stop the brow beating and f you have nothing constructive to say don’t say it. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, b33fy said:

Unfortunately crowdfunding is a high risk strategy for all involved. Whilst taking an enquiring stance and asking constructive questions may assist with the decision making process for the buyer/ investor, personal attacks and aggressive challenges are unhelpful at best. If the answers don’t satisfy then make the decision, don’t keep attacking.

Thanks b33fy. You're right, crowdfunding, like any investment, is a risk. There are ways of mitigating that risk, but not eliminating it.

 

In my case, the real concern, other than that KRM does not have a 'proven history' (but then everyone's gotta start somewhere!, and this is his), is the fidelity and build quality of the model. So far there is no complete CAD, much less EP. Details on the model are singularly lacking.

 

I don't think that the final model will be a blob, but how well will it stack up against the prototype? What is the body construction? How well will it run (hopefully no coreless motor!)? I don't want DCC sound, and I don't need it to pull 15 carriages, but I do want it to look the part, not fry on DC, and to manage reasonable track manoeuvres without falling over.

 

I may be a numpty, but that doesn't bother me.

Edited by truffy
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20 minutes ago, b33fy said:

All I ask is for forum members to treat the guy with a bit of respect, stop the brow beating and f you have nothing constructive to say don’t say it. 

 

I was taught that people have to earn respect?

 

It was Keiths decision to be so secretive, to  go the crowdfunding route rather than get a bank loan, and to use the forum for publicity

 

I have seen so many negative things such as his temper. Perhaps you could come up with one factual evidence based positive reason why someone would risk backing this project (the only thing I have seen is that Keith is “enthusiastic” , a more comprehensive list of attributes I feel is required to see this project through to completion)

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2 hours ago, b33fy said:

There’s a certain amount of due diligence which is seen as reasonable from which you can make up your minds, to either opt in or walk away. The responses here are past that point and are tantamount to prodding a dog with a stick then blaming it when it bites back.

 

I’ve seen this so many times with one man bands, who are dammed if they do respond and dammed if they don’t. If it was me I wouldn’t try to justify any further critism and walk away from the very few sales likely to be lost if any at all. Hopefully Keith will get to the end product which will speak for itself and will start to build a successful reputation based on results rather than trying to persuade the cynical few.

 

Keith, stick to the facts and don’t get drawn into any personal attacks, as for the perpetrators it’s a shame you choose to represent your hobby in this way  if you don’t like it, don’t invest, stop beating the dog with the stick.

 

 

 

That is exactly the response that any awkward questions about DJM always provoked. If people aren't interested in the questions being asked then ignore them. 

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I'm slightly mystified by all the negativity towards a crowdfunded loco of unique prototype

 

Where were you all bemoaning FIATrains Pioneer Twins (LMS 10000 & 10001) when they where announced, many years ago? 

 

No, some of you were too busy putting your deposit down.

 

Did the loco turn up - yes

 

Where there any running issues - only if you used set track, but FIATrains sorted it and to be honest they still knock the spots off the RTR examples.

 

Have a little faith, instead of tarring a start up manufacturer with same brush as D*M!

 

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On 15/06/2019 at 14:43, KR Models said:

I know Andy.  The issue is my business license is registered to that address and I can't advertise a different address or I would be in breach of my license which carries a hefty fine. 

I’m sorry to keep asking awkward questions,

I guess this website is incorrect...

 

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/nonresident-business-in-canada-2948595

 

Quote

First, are you Canadian (either a Canadian citizen or a landed immigrant)? If you are, then all you need is a Canadian address (not a Post Office box, but a real Canadian address). If you personally have or establish a Canadian address and are a Canadian citizen or a landed immigrant, you can register your business as a sole proprietorship (or as any of the other permitted forms of business in Canada).

regardless of immigration status this site, with links on where to register, suggests you cannot run a business from a PO Box.

I did therefore fact check this a little further, with an Alberta based entity, and they have confirmed this is correct.

This was confirmed for ltd, inc, and unincorporated.

 

3CB3BECB-CD10-4637-B7D6-C286514D61A2.jpeg.86cdd0ffae1cffafcf30aa12622c0afd.jpeg

 

I am therefore confused.

Edited by adb968008
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3 hours ago, b33fy said:

Keith, stick to the facts and don’t get drawn into any personal attacks

 

For clarity can you quote these 'personal attacks'  I have looked but cannot see any.

 

6 minutes ago, toboldlygo said:

Have a little faith, instead of tarring a start up manufacturer with same brush as D*M!

 

Along with 'Faith' comes 'Hope' and 'Charity'. 

 

'Charity' could be handing your money over, lets hope that  'Hope ' isn't required.

 

As for tarring a start up the same as DJM, there are other commissioners who are start ups, the difference is that they have funded the start themselves and established a CAD and something tangible before looking for external funding.  It has been KR Models choice to go down the route of seeking all funding from prospective purchasers, and as such KRM should be open to questioning. 

 An issue developing here is that those that are objecting to questioning are now refering to KR Models as 'Keith' as if the proprietor is a close friend and as such are being defensive, the supplier in this case is a company called KR Models and nobody actually knows who is behind them.

  The buddy relationship that formed on the DJM threads between D Jones and some funders who then shouted down those with a reasonable question, probably helped keep that company going way past its sell by date. 

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adb968008 that's very interesting. In an e mail exchange with KR models about their licence I said 

 

Quote

 


Keith
 
Can you please help by sending the correct link that does show your licences in Canada and Alberta.
 
Regards
Colin

 

 

then he replied

 

Quote

 


It's not listed in a catalog form. You would need my login in and password to see it. Or I would have to send the documents to you, which I'm sure you would understand that I'm not prepared to do that. 
 
Kind regards,
 
Keith Revell
Managing Director 
KR Models

www.krmodels.co.uk 
+1 780 863 2330
 

We dare to build

 

 

I did think it strange that he did not volunteer something like a licence number that could be checked but instead sent a smart alex answer about his log on details and documents.

 

As to prodding a dog with a stick, it was KR models who first mentioned a licence when they used the "licenced address" as a reason for using the PO number.

 

 

I had not planned to say anymore but it's not getting any better. Now we have to take it on trust that he has a licence to trade.

Edited by Colin_McLeod
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2 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

For clarity can you quote these 'personal attacks'  I have looked but cannot see any.

 

 

Along with 'Faith' comes 'Hope' and 'Charity'. 

 

'Charity' could be handing your money over, lets hope that  'Hope ' isn't required.

 

As for tarring a start up the same as DJM, there are other commissioners who are start ups, the difference is that they have funded the start themselves and established a CAD and something tangible before looking for external funding.  It has been KR Models choice to go down the route of seeking all funding from prospective purchasers, and as such KRM should be open to questioning. 

 An issue developing here is that those that are objecting to questioning are now refering to KR Models as 'Keith' as if the proprietor is a close friend and as such are being defensive, the supplier in this case is a company called KR Models and nobody actually knows who is behind them.

  The buddy relationship that formed on the DJM threads between D Jones and some funders who then shouted down those with a reasonable question, probably helped keep that company going way past its sell by date. 

 

Have I put any money down? NO

 

Do I know Keith? NO

 

I'm just making a valid and honest observation.

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40 minutes ago, toboldlygo said:

 

 

Where were you all bemoaning FIATrains Pioneer Twins (LMS 10000 & 10001) when they where announced, many years ago? 

...

 

FIATrains wete not an unknown start up nor did they use crowd funding. They asked for a deposit

 

 

 

Quote

 

Have a little faith, instead of tarring a start up manufacturer with same brush as D*M!

 

 

The name of the company is DJmodels or DJM for short.   Let's not descend to D*M. That's childish rather like saying Farcebook, Flea bay etc

Edited by Colin_McLeod
Auto correct did not like farce book or flea bay either!!
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On 14/06/2019 at 16:05, KR Models said:

The VAT is charged at source, import duty is down to you.

I’m having confusion with this too...

 

where is the source ?

China, Canada or UK.

 

if it’s UK you need a UK entity, EORI number and a VAT registered business (considering the suggested volumes)... otherwise that containers going nowhere outside the docks.

 

The rub is here, then you need a UK trading presence and UK trading rules apply, regardless those of Canada. 

 

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On 31/05/2019 at 23:08, KR Models said:

 

I do have a business license for my registered address, which I am not sharing.  I do not need to register with Companies House as I'm a sole proprietor.   I haven't filed taxes in the UK cause I'm a non-resident of the UK.  I have filed taxes since 2009 here in Alberta.  Scalecast Mouldings was mine in North America, but it was more of a hobby than a business but has long since gone.  

 

38 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m sorry to keep asking awkward questions,

I guess this website is incorrect...

 

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/nonresident-business-in-canada-2948595

 

regardless of immigration status this site, with links on where to register, suggests you cannot run a business from a PO Box.

I did therefore fact check this a little further, with an Alberta based entity, and they have confirmed this is correct.

This was confirmed for ltd, inc, and unincorporated.

 

3CB3BECB-CD10-4637-B7D6-C286514D61A2.jpeg.86cdd0ffae1cffafcf30aa12622c0afd.jpeg

 

I am therefore confused.

Would that be the Business License which is a secret?

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9 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

FIATrains were not an unknown start up nor did they use crowd funding. They asked for a deposit

 

 

As far as I was concerned I'd never heard of FIATrains.

 

It wasn't called crowdfunding in those days.

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15 minutes ago, truffy said:

Really?

Are the people asking questions here the same as those putting deposits down?

 

 

Not necessarily there are those who've been stung before on other start ups and not placed deposits on the GT3 and are posting in here (because they have their fingers burnt - hence the suspicion)

 

I was simply stating facts.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m having confusion with this too...

 

where is the source ?

China, Canada or UK.

 

if it’s UK you need a UK entity, EORI number and a VAT registered business (considering the suggested volumes)... otherwise that containers going nowhere outside the docks.

 

The rub is here, then you need a UK address and UK trading rules apply, regardless those of Canada.

 

Quite so, as many of these points have been pointed out in various posts on a piece by piece basis.

I am having trouble in how the costing of the product has been calculated when there is, on their own admission, no UK distribution arrangement in place.

Add to that the lack of compliance with UK law covering importing and VAT as you point out.

Not to mention the apparent confusion over T &C regarding sales in the UK and other countries,

All these things cost money.

It would seem to me that there is a big hole in the figures.

Nothing personal Keith I assure you.

However a life time working in Quality Assurance makes questioning business procedures something of a habit that is hard for me to escape from.

Bernard

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25 minutes ago, toboldlygo said:

 

As far as I was concerned I'd never heard of FIATrains.

 

It wasn't called crowdfunding in those days.

 FIA Trains was the name for the model train part of a large well established company.

Sadly for various reasons there was never a follow up to the initial models.

They are indeed superb.

I  never paid a deposit on mine.

Bernard

 

 

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As there appear to be far too many 'experts' who clearly know everything about everything.  I'm not going to be taking part in this thread.  I didn't start, I didn' ask for it, and I won't be using it.  Nothing can be achieved by trying to defend my actions or credibility here, only a very few have something positive to offer.   No matter what I do, I cannot pacify the main (who don't want to be wrong), Objectors. 

 

Enjoy your modeling.  

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1 minute ago, KR Models said:

As there appear to be far too many 'experts' who clearly know everything about everything.  I'm not going to be taking part in this thread.  I didn't start, I didn' ask for it, and I won't be using it.  Nothing can be achieved by trying to defend my actions or credibility here, only a very few have something positive to offer.   No matter what I do, I cannot pacify the main (who don't want to be wrong), Objectors. 

 

Enjoy your modeling.  

 

I've got a sense of dejavu.

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