KRModels announce a GT3 Model

[truffy]

19 minutes ago, Stanley Melrose said:

If not, why should Keith risk 100?

Because he gets them at cost?

[Clearwater]

I doubt the extra potential profit on 100 units, even at a premium, is worth the risk of loss of profits (the production cost is still a good chunk of the model - look at Hornby’s pricing structures for comparison.) nevermind the time and effort to make that money through individual eBay sales.  An eBay auction may represent a single price point on a single deal and can’t be reliably viewed as the clearing price for a much larger number of units.  

 

Even if the unit cost excluding tooling is £60 and the profit you can make is £100 per unit, you’re betting £6k of your ‘certain’ profit to maybe make £10k extra.  I don’t think that makes sense. You’d be better off reinvesting the £6k in your next project.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it’d be worth it for a truly iconic model with pent up demand and ‘must have appeal’ but I just can’t see that for a GT3. 

[GWR-fan]

Personally,  if demand exceeds supply then this is a win-win for Keith.  Demand will elevate the "need" for purchasers to buy the next release model.  Exclusivity instils life into a manufacturer,   maintaining demand.  Oversupply obviously has a negative impact on sales, leading to discounting and reluctance by buyers to crowdfund the next project (why pay upfront when you may get it less expensive in a firesale).    Tailor production runs to crowdfunder numbers.   This psychologically removes the impulse to hold off funding the model in case surplus models are released post production.   I would see it as disingenuous if a manufacturer uses crowdfunder money to produce additional models, surplus to actual orders,   simply to add profit to the bottom line at the expense of the crowdfunders.    Keith is NOT doing this,  so I do not see any post production sales happening.

 

I recall many years ago (circa-1978)  when I purchased a limited run,  final release Leyland Mini 1275GT.  The production run was 750 silver and 750 gold Minis.  Sales were so good that the company did a duplicate production run,  destroying any collectable possibility with the initial run.  The buyers, like myself,  were duped.   With crowdfunding a manufacturer needs to maintain customer support and enthusiasm by catering specifically to the crowdfunders' needs and not the fickle demands of the aftermarket requests.

[polybear]

8 hours ago, Clearwater said:

Maybe, just maybe, it’d be worth it for a truly iconic model with pent up demand and ‘must have appeal’ but I just can’t see that for a GT3. 

 

It would only take one armchair expert (who may well not have even been born when GT3 existed) on the net to start to start picking faults (e.g. "the nose shape is all wrong") and any hopes of profit on spare locos could rapidly disappear....  

[DavidH]

Why should being born at the time have any bearing whatsoever on your ability to see a correct shape or other details in a model?

Must be one of RMWeb's Handy Bluffer's Guide to Dismissing and Discrediting People With Ideas Different to Your Own:. #1 "rivet counter", #2 "why don't you risk your own money?", #3 "the wheels are the wrong width anyway", #4 "are you a customer?/you're not a member of the society", #6 "you weren't born at the time" ...

 

Presumably quite a few people will, after receiving the model, rush to create unboxing videos/blog reviews, so there will be quite a few, as you have it, "armchair experts" with the model in front of them as they relax on their comfortable chair of choice whilst typing on a portable electronic device.

[JaymzHatstand]

17 minutes ago, DavidH said:

Why should being born at the time have any bearing whatsoever on your ability to see a correct shape or other details in a model?

 

Indeed! I completely agree. But I also agree with aspects of the previous post.

 

I suspect that many people who were born at the time won't have seen the real thing. I'm pretty sure my dad, who spent a lot of his spare time out spotting, never saw it. As he had been born at the time though, it makes him more reliable to comment on though, yes? To be fair, I'm not sure if he's even interested in the thing, but he was born so has a more valid opinion on it than someone who may well be younger but has done plenty of research to form a review.

 

It's likely that the 'armchair experts' referred to are those who don't really know what they're on about, but sit and spout their opinions as fact with very little actual substrance to back them up, quite possibly/probably just to cause a ruckus. (Please note, I'm not directing this at anyone directly on here at present)

 

I'm personally not overly bothered by the GT3, as I've said before, more interested in how the model progresses, develops, is recieved and how it performs with the view that something I DO want might one day emerge from KR. Does this also mean I can't have an opinion on it too?!

 

So fingers crossed that it's good, and those who have put their money where their mouths are get the model they really want! 

 

Cheers

 

J

[Craigw]

14 hours ago, oleander said:

I asked that question at the GET show. was told No. When the book is closed there will be a few extra for warrenty issues and thats it. I surggested they could be sold at a higher price so the buyer would have no risk . That was a No.

They did say they will auction off the protypes and test models . Not sure what that will entail and when that will happen .

If I was him . Make an extra 100 say . Real cost nothing as tooling and shipping is covered. Then sell them on Ebay.  If the model is as good as he says well they should go way above RRP. How amny people would love to have an APT E to stick on Ebay .

John

 

The real cost is not "nothing". The model cost is made up of tooling costs plus also an assembly cost for each model. If the model costs 10 GBP for assembly and the run is 2000 then you need to factor in a cost of 20, 000 GBP on top of the tooling charges. An extra 100 would cost an extra 1, 000 GBP - not free.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[adb968008]

On 23/10/2019 at 10:15, JaymzHatstand said:

 

I suspect that many people who were born at the time won't have seen the real thing. I'm pretty sure my dad, who spent a lot of his spare time out spotting, never saw it. As he had been born at the time though, it makes him more reliable to comment on though, yes? To be fair, I'm not sure if he's even interested in the thing, but he was born so has a more valid opinion on it than someone who may well be younger but has done plenty of research to form a review.

 

 

My dad certainly saw it, he procured it from EE, arranged its transfer to Wards, opened the gates on a Saturday to let everyone have a last look, gave away its various manufacturer plates, discs etc and on the Monday authorised the scrappiest to commence disposing of it. Somewhere in his paperwork I've got copies of the some of the documentation, I remember him showing me as a kid.

Whilst he was an extremely active preservationist, he was somewhat proud of his role in GT3’s disposal, though he always caveated there was nothing substantial in reality to save, it was massively stripped.

Of the more odd parts of GT3 is that it had carpets and curtains in the cab.

Why TWWards of Salford ? They  didn’t work too closely with BR, and mainly dealt in industrial scrap, boilers etc, the sale was with EE and not BR, hence being on their radar, there was other (non railway) factory scrap in the deal.

Edited October 28, 2019 by adb968008

[polybear]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

 ......gave away its various manufacturer plates, discs etc and .....

 

 

Did he ever regret that.....I wonder what they'd be worth now?

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, polybear said:

 

 

Did he ever regret that.....I wonder what they'd be worth now?

I did ask him that, he was very active in Bahamas Loco Soc (later Dinting),  Buckley Wells Railway Enthusiasts (later East Lancs at Helmshore, then Bury) and was running for council in Salford (he won in 1968), his words were “its more than my job is worth to have kept anything”).

 

That said, around the Salford area there must be a reasonable number of surviving bits in collectors hands, he said all the internals were gone but all the plates, signage etc was there, and he had arranged everything of interest to be removed and gave them away to yard visitors on the Saturday after it’s arrival (he would have known many of those visitors already through the grapevines he was part of above).

 

The headcode discs are of interest to me, he said they weren’t standard sized as per the ones fitted to 20/37 or 40’s etc.. giveaway of course would be that they would be orangey/brown on the inverse top side... never seen one come up for sale, but it intrigued me.

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The headcode discs are of interest to me, he said they weren’t standard sized as per the ones fitted to 20/37 or 40’s etc.. giveaway of course would be that they would be orangey/brown on the inverse top side...

 

They were oval, not circular.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[oleander]

On 22/10/2019 at 21:51, Stanley Melrose said:

 

What an interesting suggestion!  I guess you could always back your theory and order half a dozen yourself and sell them on eBay . . .

 

If not, why should Keith risk 100?

 

Stan

 

Stan

Truffy answred it perfectly. There is a very big diffrence between cost of building the Loco and RRP. Kieth has Cost.

You get me 100 GT3 at cost price and that must be shown, with free shipping from China and I will happly sell them on Ebay. 

I would guess £50 a loco X100= £5K+ Vat £1K There are a lot of undecided people on here and eles were. So RRP £185 X100 = £18500 - £6000 = £12500 min. Lets say just a small bit of the ebay madness we have all seen. You know the How much did that sell for! happens. I have seen Items sell for 4 fold of new prices that are not avaible  .So average £200 a Loco we are now at £14000.  Of course ebay fees etc . I do realise I have simplefied this a bit . I will not be far off.

John

[chris p bacon]

12 minutes ago, oleander said:

I would guess £50 a loco

 

Your guess would be wrong. For a small run such as this you'd be in 3 figures.

[JDW]

41 minutes ago, oleander said:

 

Stan

Truffy answred it perfectly. There is a very big diffrence between cost of building the Loco and RRP. Kieth has Cost.

You get me 100 GT3 at cost price and that must be shown, with free shipping from China and I will happly sell them on Ebay. 

I would guess £50 a loco X100= £5K+ Vat £1K There are a lot of undecided people on here and eles were. So RRP £185 X100 = £18500 - £6000 = £12500 min. Lets say just a small bit of the ebay madness we have all seen. You know the How much did that sell for! happens. I have seen Items sell for 4 fold of new prices that are not avaible  .So average £200 a Loco we are now at £14000.  Of course ebay fees etc . I do realise I have simplefied this a bit . I will not be far off.

John

 

The flaw in this plan, of course, is that if you have an extra hundred made to sell on Ebay, then they are no longer made of that magical material unobtainium, and thus no longer worth the high price... Otherwise, as a plan, it's excellent 

[polybear]

7 hours ago, JDW said:

 

The flaw in this plan, of course, is that if you have an extra hundred made to sell on Ebay, then they are no longer made of that magical material unobtainium, and thus no longer worth the high price... Otherwise, as a plan, it's excellent 

 

Plus the risk of the model getting ripped to bits  (fairly or unfairly) on social media, leading to  a sudden loss of interest and meaning you're now stuck with a load of locos with no customers....

[GWR-fan]

From my research it costs $20.00 Aud in labour costs to fully assemble the latest Apple iphone.   I feel many overestimate the actual assembly costs of Chinese made goods.   The recent posting quoting GBP10.00 assembly cost per loco would be close to the mark.  Shipping costs per unit would be considerably less than what it would cost to ship a single item,  so massive savings per unit cost in bulk transport.  Given that wholesale costs are generally around 60% of retail then with a typical steam loco retailing around GBP180.00,  the wholesale costing would be in the region of  GBP108.00.  Allow a small profit per item and the delivered cost per item is most likely around GBP80.00 - 90.00.

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

Plus the risk of the model getting ripped to bits  (fairly or unfairly) on social media, leading to  a sudden loss of interest and meaning you're now stuck with a load of locos with no customers....

 

Which happened with the Heljan class 14 ......

[oleander]

20 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Your guess would be wrong. For a small run such as this you'd be in 3 figures.

you have missed read what I am trying to get at.

R&D ,Tooling, Shipping all paied for by Crowdfund. The extra 100 would be add to the run. So if KR has say 2000 orders it would be 2100.  Motors gears castings etc all would be part of the bulk order. Thous the only cost would be materiales and labour. I did guess at £50 but it deffently will not be 3 figgures. £185-VAT =£154.17. That has to cover R&D,Tooling,Manufacturing,Painting,Materiales,Shipping from China and profit. Given it was a 3 payment plan I think £50 will not be far off the mark .

John

[Clearwater]

1 hour ago, oleander said:

you have missed read what I am trying to get at.

R&D ,Tooling, Shipping all paied for by Crowdfund. The extra 100 would be add to the run. So if KR has say 2000 orders it would be 2100.  Motors gears castings etc all would be part of the bulk order. Thous the only cost would be materiales and labour. I did guess at £50 but it deffently will not be 3 figgures. £185-VAT =£154.17. That has to cover R&D,Tooling,Manufacturing,Painting,Materiales,Shipping from China and profit. Given it was a 3 payment plan I think £50 will not be far off the mark .

John

why on earth would KR subsidise your proposal by selling to you at cost?
 

 I’m sure KR would be delighted to consider selling to you a large bulk order at a discount to the single unit price.  However, you’re missing the commercial reality on how an entity considers marginal costs and amortises fixed costs through a production run.  However in considering whether to make such a large sale to you with a resale in mind, you may find that a) dealing with KR under a non-disclosure agreement is helpful to you and b) they look to protect their own sales by mandating a price under which you cannot sell for a certain time period to prevent you cannabilising their market (cf Bachmann’s policy).  In plain language,  they will not want you to be able to undercut them until they have made all their sales.

[oleander]

3 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

why on earth would KR subsidise your proposal by selling to you at cost?
 

 I’m sure KR would be delighted to consider selling to you a large bulk order at a discount to the single unit price.  However, you’re missing the commercial reality on how an entity considers marginal costs and amortises fixed costs through a production run.  However in considering whether to make such a large sale to you with a resale in mind, you may find that a) dealing with KR under a non-disclosure agreement is helpful to you and b) they look to protect their own sales by mandating a price under which you cannot sell for a certain time period to prevent you cannabilising their market (cf Bachmann’s policy).  In plain language,  they will not want you to be able to undercut them until they have made all their sales.

 At no one point Have I said KR should sell to me .  So I can see why you have quoted what I posted .

[Clearwater]

1 minute ago, oleander said:

 At no one point Have I said KR should sell to me .  So I can see why you have quoted what I posted .

 

1 minute ago, oleander said:

 At no one point Have I said KR should sell to me .  So I can see why you have quoted what I posted .

 

22 hours ago, oleander said:

 

Stan

Truffy answred it perfectly. There is a very big diffrence between cost of building the Loco and RRP. Kieth has Cost.

You get me 100 GT3 at cost price and that must be shown, with free shipping from China and I will happly sell them on Ebay. 

I would guess £50 a loco X100= £5K+ Vat £1K There are a lot of undecided people on here and eles were. So RRP £185 X100 = £18500 - £6000 = £12500 min. Lets say just a small bit of the ebay madness we have all seen. You know the How much did that sell for! happens. I have seen Items sell for 4 fold of new prices that are not avaible  .So average £200 a Loco we are now at £14000.  Of course ebay fees etc . I do realise I have simplefied this a bit . I will not be far off.

John

 

Per your post yesterday, you expressly say that if you can get them at cost price, you will happily sell them. I’m not quite sure how to interpret your post any other way,  Whether that’s direct from KR or another intermediary, my point stands.  In fact, if via an intermediary, they will also want a cut.  That’s how it works.  Taking it as a straw man, your proposal for someone to buy a large number at cost and resell on eBay at a large mark up is fantasy and doesn’t stand up to any level of scrutiny I’m afraid.

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, oleander said:

So if KR has say 2000 orders

 

It is more like a 1000. (stated in a previous post)

 

[grahame]

56 minutes ago, oleander said:

 At no one point Have I said KR should sell to me .  So I can see why you have quoted what I posted .

 

How else will you obtain them to sell on eBay?

[Guest LU Standard Stock]

Just noticed on the KR Facebook page this post about the potential of producing the GT3 in fictional BR Blue.

As an avid Train Simulator player and an owner of the product, I find it interesting that these images are taken directly from the official blog of Victory Works who made the GT3 pack for Train Sim but with their logos removed and no mention of them in the Facebook post.

http://victoryworksts.blogspot.com/2015/05/gt3-gas-turbine-fictional-br-blue-livery.html

 

Maybe Victory Works have given their permission, but without him stating it and as he has purposefully removed their logos it all seems very dodgy. *cough* image theft *cough*

Edited October 29, 2019 by LU Standard Stock

[oleander]

1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

 

 

 

Per your post yesterday, you expressly say that if you can get them at cost price, you will happily sell them. I’m not quite sure how to interpret your post any other way,  Whether that’s direct from KR or another intermediary, my point stands.  In fact, if via an intermediary, they will also want a cut.  That’s how it works.  Taking it as a straw man, your proposal for someone to buy a large number at cost and resell on eBay at a large mark up is fantasy and doesn’t stand up to any level of scrutiny I’m afraid.

Go start at the beginning of were I posted not half way through. I was making a reply to Stans post were he quoted me.  You need to read a whole conversation from the start  to get in context . Ok forums make that hard .
You will find I was surjesting KR models sell them . It was Stan who said:I guess you could always back your theory and order half a dozen yourself and sell them on eBay. My reply was based on If I was in the position of Keith I would . As I am not I cant . The numbers I was using would be based on KR cost.