KRModels announce a GT3 Model

[Mel_H]

On 19/06/2020 at 05:21, Ben A said:

 

Hello all,

 

Clean and stylish - very nice.

 

 

 

I know it’s the model that really counts, but I do think good packaging is an important part of the whole, err, package.  For as any half decent chef will tell you, the first bite is taken with the eye...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

That is very true. I bought a new mouse for my Mac the other day, and I’d forgotten how lovely Apple’s packaging is.  Yes, I know you pay for it

[adb968008]

On 20/06/2020 at 03:08, MGR Hooper! said:

Is it? Whatever images I saw of any DJM models, it was in a maroon box. I also recall reading somewhere that he was inspired by BR maroon or something like that.

I think many people see a shade of red when they see a DJ box.

 

White box looks nice, afterall the SLW 24 comes in a biscuit tin. I’m waiting for the first trainset to be sold in a BR drivers leather bag.

Edited June 30, 2020 by adb968008

[Darius43]

Just seen a full page ad announcing a 2nd production run of the KR Models GT3 in the August 2020 Hornby Magazine, which states:-

 

“Following the success and overwhelming response to our first release of the English Electric GT3”

 

This is nice apart from the fact that the first run of the GT3 has not yet been released.   As a KR Models customer/crowdfunder, I hope the release is imminent but the above statement is somewhat misleading and to me this is worrying.

 

A clarification from KR Models on the status of the yet to be released first run of the GT3 would be helpful I think.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Colin_McLeod]

I'm sure KR Models can clarify for you but what is your problem with a second run?

 

BTW I think you are a customer, not a crowdfunder.

[chris p bacon]

12 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

BTW I think you are a customer, not a crowdfunder.

 

Technically it's both.   If you've paid for the model in advance so that production could proceed you're a crowdfunder, Without monies paid in advance the model wouldn't have proceeded. 

[dpgibbons]

12 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I'm sure KR Models can clarify for you but what is your problem with a second run?

 

No problem so long as they don't take money for the second run ahead of delivering the first. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

I'm pretty sure they are still only advertising for expressions of interest on the second run? So until that number is reached noone will be charged. 

[truffy]

1 minute ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

I'm pretty sure they are still only advertising for expressions of interest on the second run? So until that number is reached noone will be charged. 

Indeed. According to their website, this is for EOI at this stage, not collection of monies:

Quote

Following the success of the GT3 OO gauge loco, we have been asked if we would consider a 2nd run.  If you are interested because you missed out or you were sat on the fence undecided, then please make your interest known.  GT3 OO Gauge DCC ready £195, GT3 OO gauge DCC Sound £295, both plus shipping

Nowt wrong in that.

[cctransuk]

39 minutes ago, dpgibbons said:

 

No problem so long as they don't take money for the second run ahead of delivering the first. 

 

.... and that, I think, is what Darius43 was alluding to; a concern that moneys taken against a second run might be used to pay for the first run models.

 

There is no evidence to suggest that this might be the case - but, in the light of recent events, a justifiable concern.

 

John Isherwood.

[Darius43]

For clarification - what concerned me was the hubris of declaring the first run to be a "success" when no-one who paid for a first run model has actually received one. 

 

Nothing wrong with going for a second run in itself but I would feel a lot happier if this were done on the foundation of having a model actually built and delivered to satisfied customers/crowdfunders.

 

More Accurascale/Revolution/Cavalex practice and less of the other fella...

 

Darius

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

What's the difference between a second run and more customers for a bigger first run? I just don't see the problem.

 

 

4 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

  If you've paid for the model in advance so that production could proceed you're a crowdfunder, Without monies paid in advance the model wouldn't have proceeded. 

 

Legally I consider myself a customer who has paid a deposit.  The documentation related to my payment supports that view.

 

I do not consider that I am funding KR Models nor investing in the venture with potential profits or losses. There s no documentation to that effect.

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 minute ago, Colin_McLeod said:

What's the difference between a second run and more customers for a bigger first run? I just don't see the problem.

 

 

 

Legally I consider myself a customer who has paid a deposit.  The documentation related to my payment supports that view.

 

I do not consider that I am funding KR Models nor investing in the venture with potential profits or losses. There s no documentation to that effect.

There was a cut off for orders for the 1st batch for people to pay/deposit money which was down to the factory wanting quantities by a certain date. Effectively the 1st batch was crowdfunded which was why a lot of people were put off initially due to previous experience with the other company that stopped trading. 

 

Since the model prototype broke cover a lot of people became interested in ordering a model which was too late for the 1st run and why they opened the expression of interest for another batch.

[chris p bacon]

51 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Legally I consider myself a customer who has paid a deposit.

 

You might Colin, but that's not actually the case.  

[Bernard Lamb]

56 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

What's the difference between a second run and more customers for a bigger first run? I just don't see the problem.

 

 

 

Legally I consider myself a customer who has paid a deposit.  The documentation related to my payment supports that view.

 

I do not consider that I am funding KR Models nor investing in the venture with potential profits or losses. There s no documentation to that effect.

There does not need to be. Whatever you like to call yourself Colin you have handed over money and if the company folds before you receive delivery of the product you will loose out. Standard business practice, so no need to spell it out. Personally I feel that the announcement should have been held back until something has actually appeared.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

I would expect the situation to be very simple.  Unless the money is held in a separate account, clearly detached from any company finances, then it is at risk whatever it is called if the company needs money.  As KR Models is not a limited company any assets, including personal assets of its owners, or any part of the business would be used to meet any debts it has incurred and I can't see how it would be possible to protect deposit money in such a situation.

 

Any small firm trying to enter the model railway commissioning/manufacturing business at the present time is inevitably trying to trade in a hobby where people have been bitten by the collapse of DJM and where the spectre of the way DJM did business looms over any concern taking money - whatever they call it - prior to delivering the product that money is paying for.  People will inevitably ask questions, particularly with the DJM example fresh in their minds, about the capitalisation of any newcomer's projects - especially so where six figure sums are involved.  And the development and production of any 00 gauge loco will unavoidably involve a six figure sum as it will cost much more then £100,000.

 

Thus anyone arriving into this scene has to demonstrate - not just say - that they they are a solid business with good businesses cases and their own financial resources supporting whatever they might announce.  Failure to do that is one of the ways in which DJM went wrong - lots of talk, but no capital backing.   So for their own good, and the support of their business newcomers have not only to be careful but also as transparent as possible about both their business and the financing of the products they are proposing.  I have no wish at all to see KR fail or fall short because they are newcomers with some original ideas - but there's a lot more to it than ideas and proposals and, as DJM showed, its all worth nothing if the capital backing isn't demonstrably there.

 

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

There does not need to be. Whatever you like to call yourself Colin you have handed over money and if the company folds before you receive delivery of the product you will loose out. Standard business practice, so no need to spell it out......... snip.....

Bernard

 

I agree that I am a creditor of KR Models and if they fold I could lose out.

 

That is true of anybody in a credit situation.  Its also true of my utility supplier but I doubt if they would consider themselves as a crowdfunder of businesses that owe them money.

 

 

The word "creditor" has a different meaning from the word "crowdfunder".  These two words are getting confused on this thread.

[truffy]

Perhaps we should just refer to it as the ‘C’ word and have done with it 

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

I agree that I am a creditor of KR Models and if they fold I could lose out.

 

That is true of anybody in a credit situation.  Its also true of my utility supplier but I doubt if they would consider themselves as a crowdfunder of businesses that owe them money.

 

 

The word "creditor" has a different meaning from the word "crowdfunder".  These two words are getting confused on this thread.

 

Completely different situation with your utility supplier. They supply energy/water/gas in advance and you pay for the amount that you use over a clearly defined period of time. This is covered by a defined contract with the terms of use and charging in advance.

 

You're not strictly a 'creditor' either as you have given KR a 'deposit' and this is non refundable should you change your mind.  You only get your money back if the model is cancelled as you have agreed to receive a model at the end in lieu of your deposit. If the model is faulty then you can exchange it,  but if it has an inherent design fault you don't get your money back as you funded and were party to the production of the model.

You cannot escape the fact,that you (and others) have by definition funded the company and it's first locomotive by funding them in advance and taking the risk......Crowdfunding.

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Completely different situation with your utility supplier. They supply energy/water/gas in advance and you pay for the amount that you use over a clearly defined period of time. This is covered by a defined contract with the terms of use and charging in advance.

 

You're not strictly a 'creditor' either as you have given KR a 'deposit' and this is non refundable should you change your mind.  You only get your money back if the model is cancelled as you have agreed to receive a model at the end in lieu of your deposit. If the model is faulty then you can exchange it,  but if it has an inherent design fault you don't get your money back as you funded and were party to the production of the model.

You cannot escape the fact,that you (and others) have by definition funded the company and it's first locomotive by funding them in advance and taking the risk......Crowdfunding.

 

KR Models owe me something, a model.  That makes me a creditor.

 

I take your point about the utility companies. I got that the wrong way round in that they are my creditors. I owe them money.  According to your logic they are crowdfunding me.

 

[KR Models]

Oh boy, this is a fun one to disect.

 

So to start off, we deemed the project a success due to the fact that the project has been entirely funded from start to finish, and the overwhelming response from people seeing the EP sample and running production sample and the subsequently those people wanting one. We made the decision to start actively advertising the GT3 while the model is in production and assembly. As stated above, we are not asking for a monetary commitment right now for the second run as the first one has not been delivered yet. Once the expressions reach a sufficient number and the first run has been delivered, then we can make plans to move forward with the second run. The adverts we placed were to come out now because we had planned to have the model in peoples hands by next week, giving people ample to decide if they want one, but clearly that didn't pan out in our favour due to the pandemic. 

 

We were on track for a Late July/Early August delivery with the fist run, but due to material shortages brought on by the pandemic, that has been pushed back to the middle of August at the earliest. Some production is underway with what we have, but assembly is yet to take place. We are working as hard as we can to bring this model to those who bought one, and I hope you can forgive us for the delays. 

 

If you have any further questions, I would be happy to answer them to the best of my ability - Michael

[Darius43]

3 hours ago, KR Models said:

Oh boy, this is a fun one to disect.

 

So to start off, we deemed the project a success due to the fact that the project has been entirely funded from start to finish, and the overwhelming response from people seeing the EP sample and running production sample and the subsequently those people wanting one. We made the decision to start actively advertising the GT3 while the model is in production and assembly. As stated above, we are not asking for a monetary commitment right now for the second run as the first one has not been delivered yet. Once the expressions reach a sufficient number and the first run has been delivered, then we can make plans to move forward with the second run. The adverts we placed were to come out now because we had planned to have the model in peoples hands by next week, giving people ample to decide if they want one, but clearly that didn't pan out in our favour due to the pandemic. 

 

We were on track for a Late July/Early August delivery with the fist run, but due to material shortages brought on by the pandemic, that has been pushed back to the middle of August at the earliest. Some production is underway with what we have, but assembly is yet to take place. We are working as hard as we can to bring this model to those who bought one, and I hope you can forgive us for the delays. 

 

If you have any further questions, I would be happy to answer them to the best of my ability - Michael

 

Michael,

 

Thank-you for the clarification- it is appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[D9001]

On 03/07/2020 at 15:17, Bernard Lamb said:

There does not need to be. Whatever you like to call yourself Colin you have handed over money and if the company folds before you receive delivery of the product you will loose out. Standard business practice, so no need to spell it out. Personally I feel that the announcement should have been held back until something has actually appeared.

Bernard

“If the company folds”

 

There is absolutely NO indication whatsoever that at might happen and I think that people need to be VERY careful what they write on here or they could be challenged for defamation, especially if as a result of such comments orders or potential orders are lost or the business suffers in any way. No line has been crossed yet but throughout the GT3 programme some comments on here have come damn close. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by D9001

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, D9001 said:

“If the company folds”

 

There is absolutely NO indication whatsoever that at might happen and I think that people need to be VERY careful what they write on here or they could be challenged for defamation, especially if as a result of such comments orders or potential orders are lost. 

 

Since when did hypothetical discussions become illegal / actionable?

 

Get a grip, please!

 

John Isherwood.

[Roddy Angus]

The problem is that unfortunately some people have difficulty in telling the difference between hypothetical and reality, actionable or not.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

[Barry O]

Having watched the Video  can I ask a quick question? if you can't fit the "hibcaps" how are you holding the coupling rods in place on the crankpins? Couldn't that have been done with the "hubcaps"

 

Baz