KRModels announce a GT3 Model

[Pre Grouping fan]

7 minutes ago, oleander said:

I want to check some thing on KR model web site . I keep getting we'll be open real soon. been like that since I tried yesterday.
Any one eles get the same prolem ?

Thanks
john

All the email subscribers had an email saying there were technical issues which caused the suspension of taking payments for the Fell loco. Some reported earlier their balance was set at an oddly high amount. Didn't realise the website closed as well.

 

Probably just a technical glitch

[oleander]

ok thanks for checking.
john

[KR Models]

As we have stated before, we have a few gremlins that we are trying to fix with a new software system.  Normal operations will resume very soon.

[KR Models]

Michael here, something to bring up to you lovely folks.

 

All of the images and material we have that contain that the GT3 all have their colours washed and its hard to pull the precise exact colour from them.

 

The question I want to pitch is (before we set anything in stone) if we use those as accurate source material, would this be acceptable?

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, KR Models said:

Michael here, something to bring up to you lovely folks.

 

All of the images and material we have that contain that the GT3 all have their colours washed and its hard to pull the precise exact colour from them.

 

The question I want to pitch is (before we set anything in stone) if we use those as accurate source material, would this be acceptable?

Hattons get the size of the letters EWS wrong on one class 66 livery and all hell broke loose, you're asking a forum if using a washed out picture is acceptable as the basis for getting the colour right on a premium model.

 

How many of your prospective purchasers are here on RMWeb - if you know 80% or more are here and that they are all going to respond then perhaps yes a poll here would be indicative - but you need to be careful that a few people answering here (and on Facebook) may not represent the majority of your buyers.  Getting it wrong here may impact the Fell and the N gauge proposals if your livery isn't spot on.

 

On the other side, I can understand why perhaps finding the exact right tone for the livery of a one off prototype from about 70 years ago may be difficult but there must be documentation somewhere that would indicate the true colour.  The second difficulty is that even with the correct colour, scaled down to 4mm it may not look right in the eyes of purchasers i.e. no win situation - washed out colour that matches the pictures or the true colour that people think doesn't look right and there is no pictorial evidence to support it. 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, KR Models said:

Michael here, something to bring up to you lovely folks.

 

All of the images and material we have that contain that the GT3 all have their colours washed and its hard to pull the precise exact colour from them.

 

The question I want to pitch is (before we set anything in stone) if we use those as accurate source material, would this be acceptable?

 

 

I mixed my own from Humbrol colours but, to my eyes, RAL 040 30 40 doesn't look far off.

 

 

You could also ask the builders of this what they used.

 

 

 

I think that the green used here is a tad light - I'd go for RAL 6035.

 

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited March 1, 2020 by cctransuk

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, KR Models said:

Michael here, something to bring up to you lovely folks.

 

All of the images and material we have that contain that the GT3 all have their colours washed and its hard to pull the precise exact colour from them.

 

The question I want to pitch is (before we set anything in stone) if we use those as accurate source material, would this be acceptable?

 

Don't have a GT3 on order, so take that into consideration regarding the following.

 

There is generally an expectation (unless specified otherwise at original announcement - aka "weathered finishes") that the models we buy are shipped with a factory finished the represents the model as being fresh out of the paint shop.

 

Thus at least some, if not most, of your customers will be expecting that.

 

But more importantly, as pointed out by woodenhead it's not just your GT3 customers you need to worry about but potential future customers who will be forming an opinion about KR Models based on seeing someone else's GT3.

 

Alas, I can't suggest a solution to your problem, though John's post may be promising (not the least because even if those people got the colour wrong that is what most people today will use as a reference).

 

Another possibility might be to post in the Prototype Questions area of RMweb to see if anyone else has a an idea of where a better picture or other documentation can be found - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/72-uk-prototype-questions/

[gordon s]

Does this help?.....I suspect you may have seen this before. 

 

The locomotive had a designed maximum speed of 90 mph (140 km/h), weighed 123.5 long tons (125.5 t; 138.3 short tons), and was painted in a lined Beech Leaf Brown Livery, earning it the nickname "The Chocolate Zephyr" amongst railway enthusiasts. Underframes, grilles and the front access and cab doors were painted Brunswick Green with lettering and lining in Orange.

[truffy]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Hattons get the size of the letters EWS wrong on one class 66 livery and all hell broke loose, you're asking a forum if using a washed out picture is acceptable as the basis for getting the colour right on a premium model.

 

At least they're asking!

 

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

There is generally an expectation (unless specified otherwise at original announcement - aka "weathered finishes") that the models we buy are shipped with a factory finished the represents the model as being fresh out of the paint shop.

 

Thus at least some, if not most, of your customers will be expecting that.

 

I, for one.

 

I agree that @cctransuk's and @gordon s's suggestions are probably the best starting point, unless there's a colour specification (beyond a somewhat subjective name) available in the plans etc. The one thing that couldn't be trusted is a photo, unless there's some way to correct for the inevitable colour shift.

[KR Models]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

There is generally an expectation (unless specified otherwise at original announcement - aka "weathered finishes") that the models we buy are shipped with a factory finished the represents the model as being fresh out of the paint shop.

 

Thus at least some, if not most, of your customers will be expecting that.

The actual appearance of the GT3 model wont have weathered paint. 

 

My post was merely to point out that all of the source material we have are all weathered photos, not the actual locomotive itself, and so trying to gauge the actual colour of the loco is difficult due to that.

 

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

I mixed my own from Humbrol colours but, to my eyes, RAL 040 30 40 doesn't look far off.

 

 

You could also ask the builders of this what they used.

 

 

 

I think that the green used here is a tad light - I'd go for RAL 6035.

 

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

This is very helpful, and i'm assuming from the photos you have used that this is Tim Coles GT3. 

 

Admittedly, that is a very good start, but personally I feel that the brown on there is a little too bright, a bit too chocolatey. (But that's just my personal opinion)

27 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

At least they're asking!

This is important to us, because we aren't the ones buying the model. You are. We want to know your thoughts and feelings as this project progresses, which is why I've been so open to suggestions throughout the project.

 

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Hattons get the size of the letters EWS wrong on one class 66 livery and all hell broke loose, you're asking a forum if using a washed out picture is acceptable as the basis for getting the colour right on a premium model.

And this is the biggest problem we face. We cant find much more source material that isnt very old or has faded colours, and even restored photographs might not have the right colour, so inevitably there's going to be some backlash or some outrage over this. We want it to be as accurate as possible, but its difficult to ascertain that.

 

The detail on models is everything, no matter how large or small the detail might be, and we pride ourselves on working had to bring a quality product that we can all be proud of.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, KR Models said:

... but personally I feel that the brown on there is a little too bright, a bit too chocolatey.

 

Which brown?

 

Sampling the photos of the large scale model, the brown of the loco in front of the cab window is RGB 105 48 37;

 

 

but the cab side in the tender photo is RGB 179 93 60.

 

 

Let's face it - the colour of GT3 has been debated since the time that it first rolled out of the paint shed. Unless you can find a paint spec. you'll have to choose a colour and be prepared for 90% of commentators to tell you that you got it wrong.

 

All I can say is that, independently, another modeller and I came to pretty much the same conclusions and, with the exception of the lightness of the green, so did the builders of the large scale model.

 

Perhaps you need to do a straw pole on the colours that I have suggested, and those of the models that I and Tim C. have produced?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[gary_lner]

Sounds like a bit of a minefield. Amy chance the ep body shells that were on show at the great electric train show can be sprayed up in some different shades and see how they look? I for one would be happy with the shade that John created on his fine looking gt3. Are you attending Ally Pally this year? 

 

Regards Gary 

[Littlethorpe]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned but the Wikipedia entry for GT3 contains the following phrase...

 

"and was painted in a lined Beech Leaf Brown Livery, earning it the nickname "The Chocolate Zephyr" amongst railway enthusiasts. Underframes, grilles and the front access and cab doors were painted Brunswick Green with lettering and lining in Orange."

 

I did actually see it running on several ocassions but as a young trainspotter I didn't pay a lot of attention to the livery. Still hoping for an N Gauge version one day.

[truffy]

51 minutes ago, Littlethorpe said:

Don't know if this has already been mentioned

 

A mere five posts above.

[KR Models]

14 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Which brown?

 

Sampling the photos of the large scale model, the brown of the loco in front of the cab window is RGB 105 48 37;

 

 

but the cab side in the tender photo is RGB 179 93 60.

 

 

Let's face it - the colour of GT3 has been debated since the time that it first rolled out of the paint shed. Unless you can find a paint spec. you'll have to choose a colour and be prepared for 90% of commentators to tell you that you got it wrong.

 

All I can say is that, independently, another modeller and I came to pretty much the same conclusions and, with the exception of the lightness of the green, so did the builders of the large scale model.

 

Perhaps you need to do a straw pole on the colours that I have suggested, and those of the models that I and Tim C. have produced?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

As gary_Iner pointed out, it is a minefield that we are trying to navigate with great difficulty. We aren't going to please everyone with the colour we choose, all we can do is try to make an informed and calculated decision regarding the colour and hope people don't blast us too harshly. 

 

Trust us when we say we are doing the best we can with our circumstances. This isnt easy as i'm sure you can understand.

[cctransuk]

45 minutes ago, KR Models said:

As gary_Iner pointed out, it is a minefield that we are trying to navigate with great difficulty. We aren't going to please everyone with the colour we choose, all we can do is try to make an informed and calculated decision regarding the colour and hope people don't blast us too harshly. 

 

Trust us when we say we are doing the best we can with our circumstances. This isnt easy as i'm sure you can understand.

 

Further thoughts ....

 

Since the two photos of the large scale model were taken under pretty much the same lighting conditions, an average of the two RGB samples may be nearer the truth; this gives RGB 142 70 48 :-

 

 

Remarkably - and genuinely independently - a sample taken from a midtone on

 

comes out at RGB 142 74 48.

 

I think, therefore, that there is a consensus between the builder of the large scale model and myself as to what looks correct.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[BernardTPM]

GT3 featured on the front page of Model Railway News for July 1962. I have this copy if a scan would be at all useful.

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

 

Something else occurs to me - what would have been the result if several coats of 1960s red oxide primer were to have been varnished?

 

Just a thought .......

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[gordon s]

Here's a possible long shot. English Electric eventually became part of BAE systems and I have seen many companies do keep records of their significant achievements. 

 

It might be worth a mail/enquiry to their Heritage Group...

 

Via email: BAE Systems North West Heritage Group (Warton) via Heritage@baesystems.com

Edited March 2, 2020 by gordon s

[Johann Marsbar]

I seem to recall that the loco featured in a very early edition of Rail Enthusiast (as it was then) and there was a nice official photo of it in colour posed at Vulcan Works prior to delivery.

[stewartingram]

When I originally got my Golden Arrow kit for GT3, there was a lot of discussion on here about that kit and building it. Someone mentioned using a rattle car from a car range, was it Ford? All I know is, I used that on the original build, which is at the moment stripped down. (I used a Black 5 chassis first time round, but purchased the etched chassis etc to make it better. It is still on the roundtuit pile). I've just had a look in man cave, but the rattle can has long gone.

 

Stewart

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

When I originally got my Golden Arrow kit for GT3, there was a lot of discussion on here about that kit and building it. Someone mentioned using a rattle car from a car range, was it Ford? All I know is, I used that on the original build, which is at the moment stripped down. (I used a Black 5 chassis first time round, but purchased the etched chassis etc to make it better. It is still on the roundtuit pile). I've just had a look in man cave, but the rattle can has long gone.

 

Stewart

 

Dapol have just announced a new 'Manor', I understand.

 

 

The above shows GT3's frames superimposed on a 'Manor' drawing.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[oleander]

On 01/03/2020 at 14:16, KR Models said:

Michael here, something to bring up to you lovely folks.

 

All of the images and material we have that contain that the GT3 all have their colours washed and its hard to pull the precise exact colour from them.

 

The question I want to pitch is (before we set anything in stone) if we use those as accurate source material, would this be acceptable?

Any records you find wont help. When the Loco was painted it was before RAL or BS colours were in . GWR locos, used to vary in shade depending on shed they were painted at due to the way paint was mixed back then.
Any old photos wont be a true colour due to the way flim was processed back then .
Short of find a paint flake there no real hope of finding the correct shade. I know this I and re-seraching the paint of several boats, and in diffrent photos it would seam the colour changed but its the light. Then it depens what moniter you are looking at the photo on as that will have an effect.
There will all ways be some one saying its to dark or to light LOL.
As some one who got a loco on order ,Thanks for ask us . I trust KR models to diliver a loco that looks correct.

John

[96701]

My preference is for rich colours rather than pale.

[Colin_McLeod]

Thats very close John.