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KRModels announce a GT3 Model

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17 hours ago, oleander said:

Any records you find wont help. When the Loco was painted it was before RAL or BS colours were in .

BS colours date from 1930. Under BS381 one of them, no.490, is Beech Brown.

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19 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

BS colours date from 1930. Under BS381 one of them, no.490, is Beech Brown.

Rather darker than I was expecting but, as noted earlier, the effect of lighting etc.

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3 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

BS colours date from 1930. Under BS381 one of them, no.490, is Beech Brown.

may be so . But the problem was. There was no computerised mixing. So paints varried in shades, some quite abit. So the standeres of thats day were not what we would use today. So While there may have been a Paint called beech brown number 490. That does not mean GT3 if painted in beech brown 490 would be the same shade. They did not have the technology in that day. But the flp side is they did not have accurate  photos so no one can dissprove it being the wrong shade .

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I'd be willing to bet that there is one accurate photo, showing the colour perfectly, with proof of authenticity and everything. 

 

However, it will only appear once the model has been produced, and someone uses it as part of their complaint that the model is the wrong colour. 

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3 hours ago, oleander said:

may be so . But the problem was. There was no computerised mixing. So paints varried in shades, some quite abit. So the standeres of thats day were not what we would use today. So While there may have been a Paint called beech brown number 490. That does not mean GT3 if painted in beech brown 490 would be the same shade. They did not have the technology in that day. But the flp side is they did not have accurate  photos so no one can dissprove it being the wrong shade .

 

No doubt nobody ever made cakes properly either before there were computerised measuring methods, but that doesn't mean there were no BS standards as you first claimed. I would also suggest that any commercial paint would be mixed in significant quantities so any very small differences in the mix would be diminished in the volumes produced. A 1ml difference in a 15ml tin would be a lot, 10 fluid ounces in 1000 gallons, not much. The BS standard colour sample would, for reference purposes, be a useful starting point. Knowing the reference for both main colours would be even more useful as then the way the two colours sit next to each other would help interpret contemporary colour photographs.

 

I would agree completely that photographs alone cannot provide a verifiably accurate shade as the appearance will be affected not only by the chemical composition of the film but the light on the day, the finish and angle of the surfaces (because that affects reflections) and the storage conditions of the film over the past near 60 years.

What I would disagree about though is that there were hardly any standards worth mentioning; industry by 1960 was some way beyond stone axes...

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

As this debate continues to exercise us, I thought that I would investigate the (contemporary?) reference above to Beech Brown and Brunswick Green.

 

BS381 C 490 BEECH BROWN

BS381C_490.jpg.5f2ecd71fdcebd123345beaa3d00caba.jpg

 

BS381 C 226 MIDDLE BRUNSWICK GREEN

bs-381c-middle-brunswick-green-226-500x500.jpg.6830b281960d8f59ba60c76dd6da7a9a.jpg

 

These two colours sit very well together, and I am prepared to accept that GT3, so painted, would appear under different lighting conditions as it does in photos.

 

GT3_01.jpg.dce034f5df2dc5dac2ae5c8793c8065b.jpg

 

GT3_41.jpg.3d526010446d11f5dc355adc3b747f4d.jpg

 

GT3_28.jpg.3151070112bb51f51a5852aa6d570c43.jpg

 

GT3_23.jpg.9cfba8167b86242edd97b7562dd0b648.jpg

 

I am conscious that some photos suggest a more orangey brown; but I think that these are in a minority and can perhaps be attributed to film characteristics.

 

GT3_04.jpg.6df38fc940c7fdc38a192bdb1f38f101.jpg

 

If I were to repaint my model, I think that I would go with BS381 C 490 BEECH BROWN and BS381 C 226 MIDDLE BRUNSWICK GREEN, if only because they were contemporary colours mentioned in what I take to be information from the time.

 

model.jpg.2ff2d50ea7431c13002a00ae09dfc9a6.jpg

 

That said, its current livery does not depart much from the BS colours.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

Edited by cctransuk
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17 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

No doubt nobody ever made cakes properly either before there were computerised measuring methods, but that doesn't mean there were no BS standards as you first claimed. I would also suggest that any commercial paint would be mixed in significant quantities so any very small differences in the mix would be diminished in the volumes produced. A 1ml difference in a 15ml tin would be a lot, 10 fluid ounces in 1000 gallons, not much. The BS standard colour sample would, for reference purposes, be a useful starting point. Knowing the reference for both main colours would be even more useful as then the way the two colours sit next to each other would help interpret contemporary colour photographs.

 

Not just measuring methods, but the capabilities of quality control in the past.

 

Even if you ordered 10,000 gallons of colour A, a year later a further order for 10,000 gallons of colour A would likely be somewhat different - they simply did not have the ability to colour match the way we do today (and even today there is no guarantee the hassle/expense will be gone through for many products).

 

This is why when buying paint/yarn/etc for a project it is recommended to buy all at once and from the same batch, so you don't risk colour differences.

 

Then add in that in many cases they weren't ordering the paint for a loco ready mixed, but rather self-mixing (frequently not using an exact formula but rather by eye) to match the wanted colour using whatever was available that week from the supplier and the idea that everything was perfectly done in the past is questionable.

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True and I doubt that every source of paint is done perfectly even these days, but I don't think it is unreasonable to source the best available information on what the colours were supposed to be.

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Posted (edited)

Big thank you for all the help we have received on this thread, it is greatly appreciated and has absolutely helped in figuring out the correct colour for the GT3. 

 

We should have a definitive answer for the colour very soon with photos to follow.

Edited by KR Models
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I know accuracy is very important but it must be nigh on impossible to definitively decide the precise shade of brown and green; two photos of the same loco taken within minutes of each other could differ according strength of sunlight,  cloud cover, etc. Not to mention the wide variations of colour arising from using Kodak, Agfa, Ilford of whatever other film, even between negatives and transparencies. Anyone who is lucky enough to have seen GT3 almost 60 years ago couldn’t be expected to have an absolutely accurate memory of the colour today. All credit to KR for asking their customers. 

 

I remember the wide variations there were in BR blue, which was supposed to be standard.

 

As I never saw GT3, which was scrapped when I was a toddler, for me provided its not miles off I will be happy with it, I’m sure. 

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13 hours ago, D9001 said:

for me provided its not miles off I will be happy with it, I’m sure. 

We were considering neon pink at one point, but we both agreed that maybe that's just a little too far off.

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15 minutes ago, KR Models said:

We were considering neon pink at one point, but we both agreed that maybe that's just a little too far off.

Product duplication if Neon Pink, I think Ann Summers do one. :lol:

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Keith you could always follow Airfix kits and supply GT3 unpainted. That way no one can say you got it wrong. :)

 

Seriously though a model coloured as per John Isherwood's suggestion would make me happy.

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On 03/03/2020 at 18:37, oleander said:

may be so . But the problem was. There was no computerised mixing. So paints varried in shades, some quite abit. So the standeres of thats day were not what we would use today. So While there may have been a Paint called beech brown number 490. That does not mean GT3 if painted in beech brown 490 would be the same shade. They did not have the technology in that day. But the flp side is they did not have accurate  photos so no one can dissprove it being the wrong shade .

Visit your local DIY shed and look at the back of a tin of paint and you will read " if using paint from more than one batch no mix together before using". This in the era of computer mixed paint

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On 05/03/2020 at 00:59, D9001 said:

 Anyone who is lucky enough to have seen GT3 almost 60 years ago couldn’t be expected to have an absolutely accurate memory of the colour today.

 

It'll not stop them trying.....

The best you can ever hope for would be a (hopefully vast) majority verdict.

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Posted (edited)

Oh dear, oh dear! As an early sceptic, I have to admit to a twinge of growing excitement.

 

Nothing to do with Ann Summers.

Edited by No Decorum
To remove ambiguity.
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On 05/03/2020 at 14:15, KR Models said:

We were considering neon pink at one point, but we both agreed that maybe that's just a little too far off.

yikes...

its a 1962 Locomotive GT3 your making, not a 1987 Ford Escort GT3.

 

thats Quality in motion, not a chavmobile... though arguably both, with an psuedo airline engine inside would take off like a scolded cat.

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9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

yikes...

its a 1962 Locomotive GT3 your making, not a 1987 Ford Escort GT3.

 

thats Quality in motion, not a chavmobile... though arguably both, with an psuedo airline engine inside would take off like a scolded cat.

What about shiny and chrome? Surely that must have some interest haha

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15 hours ago, KR Models said:

What about shiny and chrome? Surely that must have some interest haha

Behave! :lol:

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Regarding colour standards as has been commented BS381 (Colours For Specific Purposes) first appeared in 1931 and BS2660 is also of prewar origin and  RAL also has it origin in standards laid down before WW2. Organisations have insisted on the use of colours matched to standards for some time. For example, Military aircraft paint schemes in WW2 were matched to colours laid down by MAP and paint manufacturers were expected to quite closely adhere to those colours, although weathering could alter them due to supply issues with the pigments used. In the 1950's the Israeli Air force specified surface finishes matched to RAL. Now those paints will have been  manufactured matched to a standard, it might have not been to modern computerised standards, but would have been a reasonable match. On a model if it is known the paint standard used, it is not unreasonable to use that colour if there is no evidence it was supposed to be a different colour. 

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I think Keith should be congratulated on soliciting opinion on the colours to be used on GT3. It is however, a minefield as others have noted. Witness the discussion over on the Heljan Class 86 thread regarding the 'as built' shade of blue used!

 

For me, as a paid up customer, I would be happy with the shades John Isherwood has suggested and wouldn't complain with those. 

 

Many people I think will be comparing John's and Tim Coles models with Keith's version as, as others have noted, old colour photographs are notoriously unreliable for colour matching. Having said that, I do feel the green used on Tim's excellent model is a tad too light. Personally, I would have used a slightly darker shade, but that's just my personal preference.

 

It is a nightmare and KR Models will be judged on its first product as a newcomer to the market. No pressure then! At least the Fell in BR Black or BR Green will be easier!

 

Looking forward to seeing some pre-production samples painted and decorated.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Wagpnmaster said:

 

It is a nightmare and KR Models will be judged on its first product as a newcomer to the market. No pressure then! At least the Fell in BR Black or BR Green will be easier!

 

It isn’t for Hornby!

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Quick update for everyone!

 

We have decided on the colours we are using for the GT3, we are happy with the decision we have made, and we should have pictures to share with you soon.

 

We are also hosting a live Q&A on our Facebook page as well, so if you have anything you want answering, find out more on there.

Its going to be on Tuesday at 7PM GMT. Both me and my father will be on there, so feel free to ask us anything. 

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I just came across a print-out of car spray paint matches, which may well have originated in the fragrant precincts of ancient RM Web, and this is what we had to say on the matter way back when:

 

GT3 Chocolate - Rover Maple

GT3 Chassis Green - Land Rover Coniston Green

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