Steam Turbine Locomotives

[sem34090]

A rather interesting topic, I think, and one triggered by someone showing me a picture of this beast of a loco:

This, for those who don't know (I didn't) is the Reid-Macleod steam turbine locomotive, which was built by the North British Locomotive Company and (I assume, given it's listing on the LNER website and Reid's involvement) was owned by the North British Railway. It wasn't their first steam turbine, but one of several of this almost fantastical breed of strangely likeable monsters!

Before the Reid-Macleod had come the Reid-Ramsay, I learnt today. This machine was equally monstrous and looked like this:

As far as I can tell the smokebox door was actually at the rear of the loco. What I love about this one in particular is the combination of 'traditional' pre-grouping steam loco features and flush, almost modern, surfaces and styling in between, added to the already slightly modern principles of the whole thing.

This is the front of the above machine:

Imagine that hurtling towards a railwayac alongside an NBR mainline in around 1911... Terrifying, I expect some found it! And I thought that the LNER W1 looked scary... The rear end is strangely pleasing, shown on the right.

This drawing looks intriguing and makes me realise just how bizarre the whole thing is!

Returning to the Reid-Macleod, here's an interesting view of the cab:

Again, how must a loco crew of 1924 have felt when they saw that?! I say 1924, because it appears that is the year in which the Reid-Ramsay was rebuild into the Reid-Macleod.

Here is the front of the rebuilt machine:

Now, this seems to have a bit more style and finesse to it, and is almost reminiscent of the contemporary NER electric locos. Possibly that was the intention?

The loco's sheer size can be further appreciated here:

So, we've just left the pre-grouping period with the Reid-Macleod of 1924, but I think in its design it counts as a pre-grouping locomotive. Incidentally, some footage of it can be found here: https://www.britishpathe.com/video/turbine-locomotive/query/Turbines

Now, it wasn't just the North British Railway that had steam turbines! Here we have an Armstrong Whitworth from the Lancashire & Yorkshire, from 1922:

Another strange, strange, beast... but I find it intriguing in how it retains the very basic outline of a standard tender loco...

Just look how tiny the stock behind the loco is! These things were all HUGE! I'm taking a serious liking to them by their sheer strangeness. All of these were running when the preserved NER 1001 was withdrawn, and those look like this:

The turbine locos almost belong to another world than that of the 1001, and yet there is every chance that a 1001 may have been seen alongside a Turbine at some stage. I'm finding these things fascinating, and will at some point have to read a bit more about how they worked.

 

Most of the photos came from the following pages:

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/reidrams/reidrams.htm

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/reidmac/reidmac.htm

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/armstrongturbine/armstrng.htm

 

Of course, there were several steam turbines produced very much after the grouping, but one reason for mentioning these three is that I've never come across them before!!!

[Dava]

The power and carrying bogies of the Reid-Macleod and the Reid-Ramsay look very similar. Could they have been re-used on the later loco?

 

Dava

[Nearholmer]

The concept of a steam-turbine-electric is very sound, it is after all what any pre-gas turbine electric railway (other than hydro-electric) consists of, if you remember to include the generating station. But, it is pig-difficult to get high thermal efficiencies in small coal-fired power stations, which is what a steam-electric loco is, compared with full-size generating stations or diesel-electric, and solid fuel is messy to handle compared with liquid.

 

Steam-electric locos were tested extensively by Heilmann in France in the 1890s, as he was trying to set a scientific/numerate basis for which lines to electrify and which lines to power using ‘mobile power stations’. He only had reciprocating steam engines available to power the dynamos, because both steam-turbines and big, viable internal-combustion engines were still in their infancy, but he knew that a ‘thermo-electric’ loco was the right thing to use, rather than a ‘stephenson’ steam loco, where electrification wasn’t viable.

 

There were plans to build a whopper petrol-electric loco in the US around 1900, sort of half-serious, half-hyperbole, and some parts of it were actually constructed, but it wasn’t really until Diesel engines progressed far enough, and the control arrangements were thrashed out, that thermo-electric power really took off.

 

But, not all the locos you illustrate are thermo-electric are they? Some have mechanical transmissions, I think, but am not sure.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Gibbo675]

Hi Sem,

 

Interesting reading via the links, thanks for that !    Such a massive locomotives for a little over 500hp seems extravagant though

 

Will you be having a scratch building session ?

 

Gibbo.

[Nearholmer]

PS: “there were several steam turbines produced very much after the grouping,“. Sort of true, but you might want to make sure that you aren’t conflating steam turbine and gas turbine locomotives.

[Killian keane]

We can go back earlier, Rocket had a rotary engine at one point, and then there was a brief period of interest in Vibratory piston engines in the late 1840s, as exemplified by this rather magnificent 0 gauge model of South Yorkshire Railway 'Albion'

Edited November 24, 2018 by Killian keane

[Nearholmer]

Fascinating.

 

But, the rotary engines applied to rocket weren’t turbines.

[Killian keane]

Fascinating.

 

But, the rotary engines applied to rocket weren’t turbines.

So what exactly did they consist of? Information on this particular rebuild is very scarce

[jjb1970]

The American company Baldwin built some huge and powerful steam turbo-electric locomotives at the end of the steam era in a last ditch attempt to keep the coal fuelled steam locomotive relevant. The N&W Jawn Henry and C&O M1's looked imposing and had real presence but weren't successful. In a way they were trying to answer a question not many were asking as the diesel engine is just inherently more efficient than trying to shrink a Rankine cycle turbine plant into a locomotive, fuelled by coal.

[DOCJACOB]

Yes the bogies were reused, but one reversed, in both locomotives. 

 

Missed one other published image (slightly different) taken in Waverley in NBR Album Ian Allen which is copyright to Mitchell library. 

 

1927 she was trialled with 2 LNER coaches between Glasgow and Edinburgh and seem to think I've seen a picture of her running as such but can remember source. 

 

I think went to British Empire Exhibition too and short archive film clip exists? 

[Nearholmer]

Killian

 

Dundonald’s rotary engine, which Is shownnon Mr Self’s website. It’s a bit like a steam Wankel engine in some ways.

 

K

[sem34090]

Surprised RMweb allowed you to type Wankel...

[HonestTom]

Killian

 

Dundonald’s rotary engine, which Is shownnon Mr Self’s website. It’s a bit like a steam Wankel engine in some ways.

 

K

 

Oh, but it gets better. After the engine failed to impress George Stephenson, it was taken to the nascent London and Greenwich Railway, where they agreed to test it out on a specially-built locomotive. What makes this locomotive so very interesting, apart from its motive power, is that it was an 0-2-0. The L&G were no more impressed with it than the LMR, however. One story says that when they tried to take it out the first time, the driving wheels stayed put and the locomotive spun around the axle, but this isn't possible given the size of the engine and the fact that it was coupled to a tender. I'll see if I can find more info when I get home.

Edited November 30, 2018 by HonestTom

[Caley Jim]

Surprised RMweb allowed you to type Wankel...

But then it's pronounced 'Vankel' !  

 

Jim

[sem34090]

Yes, but RMweb lets me type 'Vanker'.

 

I need to model this L&GR loco now! Brilliant!

[HonestTom]

Found a picture!

[Nearholmer]

Fascinating!

 

That drawing poses so many questions!