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3D Printing in 2mm Scale


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13 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Does anyone have RCH/GWR axle boxes ready to print? Preferably 9” journals but anything is better than nothing. 
 

I’m in need of some because I didn’t think through the horse box chassis that I’m building. They’re too far along to go for the etched ones. It seems to be one major type the 2mmSA shop doesn’t yet have to hand for print. 

a stl would be most useful

 

Nick B

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12 hours ago, Valentin said:

They say "Less is More".

 

 

I have seen 3D designs having a support for every single bit of their downwards facing surfaces. I did multiple prints of the same model at different orientations, resolutions, antialiasing settings. for some of these prints, I used the aforementioned approach; for the rest I manually added far less supports, choosing only the points where I considered necessary. I couldn't see any major difference in the final product, apart from the time consumed with removing the supports, between the two approaches.

 

So, why some modellers choose to add so many supports?

 

3D printer: ANYCUBIC Photon S

Resin: ANYCUBIC Green Translucent (came with the printer)

 

 

I just do not understand why some users completely cover their models in supports, its crazy.

 

I see some pictures posted on forums of models hot off the printer and all you can see is a forest of supports.

 

I have never bothered to watch a youtube video about how supports are important and refuse to read the self-described experts on facebook so I know nothing about  the thinking behind them and thus  I hardly ever add supports unless its a larger  island or a long edge, say the side of a building where I might add one ever 2cm or so.

 

Guess what, I rarely have any failures and I'm sure I use a third of the resin that those support-addicted users do.

 

For instance this model here - I put one single support on the end of the lower wing tip, and one other supporting the foot trailing out behind the figure. That was it  and it printed fine. (Except for the hole in the wing which was a photogrammetry issue that I didn't spot until after the print!)

IMG_20200906_101817(1).jpg.1bb1af26cad4fb8a4e8ef99e42e87834.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

Does anyone have RCH/GWR axle boxes ready to print? Preferably 9” journals but anything is better than nothing. 
 

I’m in need of some because I didn’t think through the horse box chassis that I’m building. They’re too far along to go for the etched ones. It seems to be one major type the 2mmSA shop doesn’t yet have to hand for print. 

 

I have a slightly rough and ready design that I knocked up to replace the white metal versions I had been using on Association RCH chassis kits. It's far from a precise rendition and definitely chunkier than the etched versions - in fact it's more of a copy of the old white metal ones than a model of the prototype! (the cardinal sin of a model of a model!)

 

Happy to share the STL with Association members who'd like it, but I imagine the shop would prefer a proper scale design!

 

Justin

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2 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

I have a slightly rough and ready design that I knocked up to replace the white metal versions I had been using on Association RCH chassis kits. It's far from a precise rendition and definitely chunkier than the etched versions - in fact it's more of a copy of the old white metal ones than a model of the prototype! (the cardinal sin of a model of a model!)

 

Happy to share the STL with Association members who'd like it, but I imagine the shop would prefer a proper scale design!

 

Justin

Hi Justin,

 

I'd be interested in the stl simply to see your approach.

 

I've been pondering doing drawings for some of the ones I'd be using (LNWR/LMS) and would be happy to share similarly.  I may have a GWR drawing which I could produce a suitable stl from - I'll have to see if Atkins has one.

 

Cheers

Kevin

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11 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

I just do not understand why some users completely cover their models in supports, its crazy.

 

I see some pictures posted on forums of models hot off the printer and all you can see is a forest of supports.

 

I have never bothered to watch a youtube video about how supports are important and refuse to read the self-described experts on facebook so I know nothing about  the thinking behind them and thus  I hardly ever add supports unless its a larger  island or a long edge, say the side of a building where I might add one ever 2cm or so.

 

Guess what, I rarely have any failures and I'm sure I use a third of the resin that those support-addicted users do.

 

For instance this model here - I put one single support on the end of the lower wing tip, and one other supporting the foot trailing out behind the figure. That was it  and it printed fine. (Except for the hole in the wing which was a photogrammetry issue that I didn't spot until after the print!)

 

 

 

Certainly agree that there are an awful lot of myths repeated without basis. YouTube "experts" generally seem a bit clueless, and posters on the Facebook groups are even worse. (Not to mention the fact they're usually trying to print Trump branded gun accessories or something ...)

 

The angel statute might not a fair comparison for most 2mm printing though! The resin process seems much more forgiving with organic shapes, so this statue, or a "mini" of an Orc or dragon, rarely needs much in way of support at all, as you say.

 

But it's flat and / or straight edges, which are pretty common on trains, that can be difficult to print without a lot of support.

 

IMG_20200815_184231.jpg.e59a1c03021ad9292332ceaeff271179.jpg

 

These tiny T gauge coaches really did need this much support - basically a support at both bottom and top of each bit of underframe gubbins - otherwise they turned out banana shaped, or lost detail on the underframe to peel lines. Too little support overall and they got suction tear lines through the middle at the point of largest cross section (they're solid).

 

The 22 degree orientation is intended to work with the pixel size and layer height (0.02mm) to minimise visible banding - that is one tip from the Photonster experts that I do follow.

 

In fact I'd say the Photonster group on GitHub are the only real experts who I trust for advice. Their FAQ is very well researched and backed up by thorough experimentation https://github.com/Photonsters/anycubic-photon-docs/blob/master/FAQ.md

 

One thing I would say about people overusing supports though - people don't seem to print flat on the build plate anywhere near enough. If something has a flat bottom and doesn't then have a significantly larger cross section higher up, it's almost certainly better to print flat on the plate and prise off with a sharp scraper. This is how I do the axleboxes, for example. Lots of people default to doing everything with supports, which definitely wastes resin, as well as introducing risks of distortion if the supports aren't sufficient or well aligned.

 

Justin

 

 

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9 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

I have a slightly rough and ready design that I knocked up to replace the white metal versions I had been using on Association RCH chassis kits. It's far from a precise rendition and definitely chunkier than the etched versions - in fact it's more of a copy of the old white metal ones than a model of the prototype! (the cardinal sin of a model of a model!)

 

Happy to share the STL with Association members who'd like it, but I imagine the shop would prefer a proper scale design!

 

Justin

 

That's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for. Chris did the etched versions. He himself stated that they were about as good as could be done with that process but they are not as bulky as they should be. I much preferred the whitemetal ones for their size but most (all?) are gone from the shop now. Unfortunately I did not purchase sufficient to cover the kits that I have to build where I depended upon the availability of such an item. 

 

As I do not have a printer the STL alone is not so useful. I will message you separately about an exchange. 

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1 hour ago, richbrummitt said:

 

That's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for. Chris did the etched versions. He himself stated that they were about as good as could be done with that process but they are not as bulky as they should be. I much preferred the whitemetal ones for their size but most (all?) are gone from the shop now. Unfortunately I did not purchase sufficient to cover the kits that I have to build where I depended upon the availability of such an item. 

 

As I do not have a printer the STL alone is not so useful. I will message you separately about an exchange. 

 

This is what the design looks like

 

axlebox.jpg.ce0ea7dcb7762d10dea93aac460f59a9.jpg

 

I usually print them as just a bit of a "filler" on the build plate when printing other things, and probably don't pay as much attention to washing off excess resin as on other models, so they often lose a bit of the detail visible in the design. But as a replacement for the whitemetal ones, they seem to do the job for me!

 

Justin 

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6 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

This is what the design looks like

 

axlebox.jpg.ce0ea7dcb7762d10dea93aac460f59a9.jpg

 

I usually print them as just a bit of a "filler" on the build plate when printing other things, and probably don't pay as much attention to washing off excess resin as on other models, so they often lose a bit of the detail visible in the design. But as a replacement for the whitemetal ones, they seem to do the job for me!

 

Justin 

just test printed a few laid flat with three supports worked very well

 

thank you

 

Nick B

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Printed the axle boxes very kindly supplied in stl form from @justin1985 and they came out very nicely.  I'm going to apply the @queensquare logic of "it looks like an axle box" and go with them.  Big thumbs up to Justin.

 

Now to work out if 3D printed brake shoes and leavers are viable...  Probably not.

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2 hours ago, Sithlord75 said:

Printed the axle boxes very kindly supplied in stl form from @justin1985 and they came out very nicely.  I'm going to apply the @queensquare logic of "it looks like an axle box" and go with them.  Big thumbs up to Justin.

 

Now to work out if 3D printed brake shoes and leavers are viable...  Probably not.

 

Brake shoes maybe since they can be made thicker (so perhaps better than etched) and are mostly protected. On engines there would be the added benefit that they can be non-conductive. Brake levers I have my doubts over but maybe in the right material they will work out. 

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Next in the progression of 3D printing was to to draw up a replacement chassis for the whitemetal Cowans 15T crane.  The back story behind this is long, I started building this back in 2007 when I was deployed in Iraq.  One ev evening during an insurgent rocket attack, I went diving, from the desk I was sitting at, for the floor while trying to fasten my helmet and body armour.  In the process I knocked my modeling mat on the floor, sending bits everywhere.  It sat in the UFO pile for a while, but now its time to get it finished.

Cowans 15T Crane v14.png

Cowans 15T chassis_V3.jpg

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1 hour ago, nebnoswal said:

One ev evening during an insurgent rocket attack, I went diving, from the desk I was sitting at, for the floor while trying to fasten my helmet and body armour.  In the process I knocked my modeling mat on the floor, sending bits everywhere. 

As an excuse for a UFO that story would take some beating

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4 hours ago, nebnoswal said:

Next in the progression of 3D printing was to to draw up a replacement chassis for the whitemetal Cowans 15T crane.  The back story behind this is long, I started building this back in 2007 when I was deployed in Iraq.  One ev evening during an insurgent rocket attack, I went diving, from the desk I was sitting at, for the floor while trying to fasten my helmet and body armour.  In the process I knocked my modeling mat on the floor, sending bits everywhere.  It sat in the UFO pile for a while, but now its time to get it finished.

 

 

 

Great story, reminds of this I found in MRN for 1950 whilst researching early 2mm, when a V2 rocket interrupted progress!

 

Jerry

 

24894400_V2haltsprogress!001.jpg.04a2bb97a03e772ef493120bc655ed1d.jpg

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I was searching for information on Private Owner Wagons today - passing the time idlily as you do - and came across the following site:

 

http://www.cs.rhul.ac.uk/~adrian/steam/RCHWagons/index.html

 

As a result of having some time on my hands and armed with an A3 print out of picture rch1002 I then did this:

 

412406568_12t1923noenddoor.jpg.8d363cd83369097bcac2b9906d05d7d0.jpg

 

Currently printing - shall know in a couple of hours if it worked.  0.4mm for the walls maybe a bit thin...  but that's scale for you.  

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Well it printed OK.  I may have to investigate the raft idea that many on here use - I also discovered I don't have a 16'6" over headstocks chassis to check that it fits!!  Another thing to add to the Shop 2 order.

 

I haven't had a chance to throw some paint on it to see how the detail holds up - you can however see how thin the walls are as the strapping on the outside shows up!  I suspect that the 1/2" bolt heads (which apparently should measure 3/4" - or 0.073mm - didn't make it!  The hinge and the door catch both seem to have made it.

 

1468484648_IMG_45431.JPG.97f22e0e6eb9490f886ea9d57570cd06.JPG

954732698_IMG_45421.JPG.921c5c114c9983e359f4d83bb34c5978.JPG

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So got some thin grey paint on - and in the right light and right angle you can actually see the bolt heads which I am surprised about.  

 

The question is - do I amp up the detail (so make the bolt heads slightly bigger so they stand out, and do the same with the strapping) or do I leave it?  Suggestions on a postcard - on on here, whichever is easiest!

 

1631092627_RCH(2).jpeg.3d04ed2f37a7826f49392a536d1e8ca5.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Sithlord75 said:

The question is - do I amp up the detail (so make the bolt heads slightly bigger so they stand out, and do the same with the strapping) or do I leave it?  Suggestions on a postcard - on on here, whichever is easiest!

 

 

I think there is some potential in a wagon body like that, the livery options are endless. Having the possibility to easily put together a rake of these wagons is so tempting. You must do a 5 plank one too.

 

To answer your question, its personal choice. There are some who like to be as scale as possible, there are others that like a bit of detail. I personally fall into the latter, I love seeing a bit of detail, even if it is slightly exaggerated.

 

J.

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1 minute ago, -missy- said:

 

I think there is some potential in a wagon body like that, the livery options are endless. Having the possibility to easily put together a rake of these wagons is so tempting. You must do a 5 plank one too.

 

To answer your question, its personal choice. There are some who like to be as scale as possible, there are others that like a bit of detail. I personally fall into the latter, I love seeing a bit of detail, even if it is slightly exaggerated.

 

J.

I tend to agree on the detail.  I shall do the 5 plank one tomorrow while my pre-service teacher is teaching the same classes as yesterday.  I shall also be taking the print to school as there was a bit of interest in what I was doing up the back of the classroom.  It helps to demystify model railways I've found.  That's why I have a Class 142 on a shuttle on my desk.

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This looks great Kevin! I had been thinking 3D printed RCH wagons would be worth doing, as an update to the Association kits (which don't necessarily go together that cleanly every time).

 

I'd say yes to ramping up the relief of details like strapping and bolt heads. I always think where you are used to seeing shadow and texture on (photos of) the real thing, you want to see shadow and relief on a model. But dead scale, in our scale, often doesn't give that. 

 

Modern Farish RCH wagons probably still overdo the strapping etc, even though they're much better than anything before. For me a happy medium would be overscale strapping and bolts, but a touch lighter than Farish. 

 

I can go back to my GER wagon and check how far I extruded the strapping and bolts. It was certainly the conclusion of quite a bit of experimentation of what looked best, to me, when printed and painted.

 

J

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Fair enough - I'll make the detail a bit bigger (I was just looking at the Farish v Matheson v Association stuff now and decided somewhere around the latter two was the go).  I shall also do the end door version, the bottom door version etc etc 

 

Basically the list reads: 7 plank side doors, 7 plank side and end door, 7 plank side, end and bottom door, 7 plank side and bottom door - all with wooden floors and with the choice between wooden end stanchions and the metal T type and then 5 plank with wood and metal floors - 8 types of 7 plank and 4 types of 5 at this stage.

 

Did 5 planks come with end and/or bottom doors?

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23 hours ago, Sithlord75 said:

I was searching for information on Private Owner Wagons today - passing the time idlily as you do - and came across the following site:

 

http://www.cs.rhul.ac.uk/~adrian/steam/RCHWagons/index.html

 

As a result of having some time on my hands and armed with an A3 print out of picture rch1002 I then did this:

 

412406568_12t1923noenddoor.jpg.8d363cd83369097bcac2b9906d05d7d0.jpg

 

Currently printing - shall know in a couple of hours if it worked.  0.4mm for the walls maybe a bit thin...  but that's scale for you.  

 

I did 0.5mm sides and ends on my LNWR and LYR open wagons, they seem to work fine and have not warped at all in the couple of years I have had the bodies.

 

Chris

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39 minutes ago, Sithlord75 said:

Fair enough - I'll make the detail a bit bigger (I was just looking at the Farish v Matheson v Association stuff now and decided somewhere around the latter two was the go).  I shall also do the end door version, the bottom door version etc etc 

 

Basically the list reads: 7 plank side doors, 7 plank side and end door, 7 plank side, end and bottom door, 7 plank side and bottom door - all with wooden floors and with the choice between wooden end stanchions and the metal T type and then 5 plank with wood and metal floors - 8 types of 7 plank and 4 types of 5 at this stage.

 

Did 5 planks come with end and/or bottom doors?

Hi Kevin,

 

Do you know what the cost of materials is for these wagons? Is it proportional to the number printed off, or is it possible to achieve economies of scale via increase quantities?

 

Nigel Hunt

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