Mobile Control Trains (aka strategic control trains)

[Down_Under]

Evening All,

 

While researching some class 31's I came across this picture on rail-online

 

With the quote:

 

"Tucked inside Doncaster old steam shed together with an old Gresley coach. I recall this was part of one of those strange 'strategic control' trains and was stabled there for years in case of nuclear attack, they were not well equipped!"

 

So after a little bit of googling not much turned up, so here I am. Does anyone have any pictures, info, knowledge, make up, stabling of one of these 'trains'?

 

J

Edited December 1, 2018 by Down_Under

[beast66606]

Wrong date for Strategic Control Trains - 01/04/2019 is the next available date.

[Nearholmer]

There was one stabled at Tunbridge Wells West, composed of highly-not-fallout proof Maunsell stock.

 

Very similar to my old Landrover, which was one of the many sets of three, one in each set fitted with radio, that were to be driven towards mushroom clouds, while taking and reporting radiation levels. The crews would, without doubt, have perished. The good bits were (a) it didn’t happen, thank God; and (b) in the 1970s lots of immaculately maintained 1957 Landrovers with about 200 miles on the clock were sold-off.

 

To say that Britain was unprepared would be wrong, but the preparations look woefully flimsy in retrospect.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Nearholmer

[iands]

Evening All,

 

While researching some class 31's I came across this picture on rail-online

 

With the quote:

 

"Tucked inside Doncaster old steam shed together with an old Gresley coach. I recall this was part of one of those strange 'strategic control' trains and was stabled there for years in case of nuclear attack, they were not well equipped!"

 

So after a little bit of googling not much turned up, so here I am. Does anyone have any pictures, info, knowledge, make up, stabling of one of these 'trains'?

 

J

 

They were in use for a bit earlier than the 'nuclear age', they were used during the 2nd World War as a mobile "control" during air raids. They were dragged anywhere on the network and connected up to the telegraph wires at nominated locations, usually at a way side signal box in the middle of nowhere. This enabled a degree of continued communication and keep the rail network open should Doncaster score a direct hit or two.

 

I was in the BR telephone exchange at Doncaster (Grain Bank) from 1978 to 1985. I remember our supervisor asking us to go with him to Carr Loco and check to see if we could recover any usable telecoms equipment from the coaches, such as relay sets, switchboards etc., etc., because the coaches were being scrapped. I managed to "requisition" one of the control seats and take it home as I hadn't much furniture back then - soon realised it was bl**dy uncomfortable, and you certainly couldn't fall asleep on the job sat in one of those! IIRC there were 5 or 6 coaches that made up the train, some were actual "control coaches", others were accommodation coaches, there might even have been a generator coach as well.

 

Hope this helps.

[melmoth]

There was an article in Railway World in either 1979 or 1980 (certainly before the change to the larger format magazine) which detailed the disposal of the carriages from these trains. A reasonable number passed into preservation.

[Bucoops]

Several of the coaches survive fortunately. 

 

http://www.lnerca.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Hush-Hush-Coaches.pdf

Edited November 29, 2018 by Bucoops

[Down_Under]

Interesting

 

Couple of answer before I could post a few more questions

 

- typically how many coaches (seems accomodation - sleeping? Power generator? Comms - corridor/brake stock?)

- if WW2 era - we are mostly talking grouping stock? Assume each region? Had its own?

- impressed that they survived so late (1985)

- any further info welcomed

- assume they would have been 'tested' perdoiclaly dueing the year?

 

- you will have to pardon my ignorance - but what coach was that in the initial photo at Doncaster?

[Nearholmer]

“impressed that they survived so late (1985)“

 

Yes, well, that’s one way of looking at it.

 

I hope the owner will forgive me copying this photo of the TWW train. To my memory, the coaches were a sort of charcoal-grey colour, but looking at this I wonder if f they might have been olive green.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Bucoops]

There's a lot of info in the PDF I linked to. There may have been control trains in WW2 but not the ones that survived to the 80s.

[drjcontroller]

I think there was one based in the old carriage shed at Craven Arms.

 

Douglas

[Marshall5]

I think there was one based in the old carriage shed at Craven Arms.

 

Douglas

ISTR that was one of the B.R.(W) trains and mainly composed of Collett carriages with, maybe, a Siphon G?  There was at least one article in RW (as referred to above) and possibly Steam Beano as well. I have long since disposed of both so can't check. For a time one of the B.R.(M) control trains was in Springs Branch shed. Aren't the two Period 1 open thirds at Peak Rail (on loan to the LMSCA from NRM) ex Control Train?

Ray.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Marshall5

[Phil Bullock]

More info here gentlemen

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_en-gbGB569GB631&biw=1093&bih=526&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=0Qj_W622G6yHgAbq0KeYDA&q=gwr+buffet+coach+interior&oq=gwr+buffet+coach+interior&gs_l=img.3...10181.17240..17368...0.0..0.121.925.15j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67j0i7i30j0i24.X2m-d3Rym3Q#imgrc=JbLpoK-N_fqfZM:

 

Phil

[dibber25]

ISTR that was one of the B.R.(W) trains and mainly composed of Collett carriages with, maybe, a Siphon G?  There was at least one article in RW (as referred to above) and possibly Steam Beano as well. I have long since disposed of both so can't check. For a time one of the B.R.(M) control trains was in Springs Branch shed. Aren't the two Period 1 open thirds at Peak Rail (on loan to the LMSCA from NRM) ex Control Train?

Ray.

 

It was during my time at Railway World  (1977-83) when Mike Harris was Editor. Mike was a carriage expert but I'm not sure if it was him who wrote the article. I seem to recall he went to Craven Arms and that he was one of the people responsible for getting vehicles preserved. (CJL)

[Down_Under]

Several of the coaches survive fortunately. 

 

http://www.lnerca.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Hush-Hush-Coaches.pdf

Thanks for that - pretty much answers all the questions

 

A totally model-able train

 

J

[Down_Under]

“impressed that they survived so late (1985)“

Yes, well, that’s one way of looking at it.

I hope the owner will forgive me copying this photo of the TWW train. To my memory, the coaches were a sort of charcoal-grey colour, but looking at this I wonder if f they might have been olive green.

Thanks for that. So is there a list of other regions that can be complied?

[The Johnster]

The idea that these trains were protected against radiation was laughable, and I imagine the military thinking was that they would be deployed somewhere back from the front line or from the radiation-affected areas; remember a lot of this was based on the actual experience of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in terms of the area that was expected to be affected/contaminated.  The reality is that the 'yield' of the weapons likely to be used had increased exponentially throughout the 50s and 60s and far more contamination would have occurred over a much, much larger area had the standoff ever failed.  

 

I was probably 8 and it was probably 1960 when I visited a 'civil defence' exhibition in a local park.  Even then, me and my chums could see that there was little point in attempting to survive an attack, and the lucky ones would be those incinerated in the initial flash.  We were given advice more suitable to blitz survival, like getting under the stairs with a portable radio and some batteries, not coming out until the 'all clear' was declared.  When, and by whom?  We were supposed to be comforted by the idea that the enemy was wiped out as well and we'd given as good as we'd got; personally, I wasn't.

 

Years later, I spoke to a bloke in a pub who'd been a navigator on an RAF Victor bomber, my favourite shape of aircraft, but my least favourite purpose for one.  His captain had once asked the squadron leader what they were to do when they'd hit their designated target deep into Russia, or 'a certain power' as it was called, as they'd realised that they wouldn't have enough fuel to make it back to the base in West Germany.  He'd been told the truth, that there would only be a radioactive crater where the base had been, and was advised to keep going east until the fuel ran out, bail, find a Siberian lady of like mind, and try to restart the human race.

[Wickham Green]

I think there was one based in the old carriage shed at Craven Arms.

 

Douglas

......... together with a straight-out-of-traffic Stanier Brake Third for some reason .............. after donkey's years of protection in the Craven Arms shed the National Railway Museum nicked it off the tender list and stored it out in the open for a few more donkey's years. ( I understand it's under cover at Butterley now.)

[Nearholmer]

Johnster,

 

They were intended to control railway traffic, and I guess that there would be no traffic to control in heavily destroyed areas anyway.

 

But, how were they supposed to be got to not-destroyed places?

 

Maybe somebody thought they’d already parked them in the small spaces between overlapping circles on the ‘probable targets’ map.

 

K

[Mark Saunders]

I remember taking notes at Carstairs of the Red painted ones there but that was probably late 1970's. I never took any photographs as it was an expensive thing as a teenager on meagre pocket money and I have no idea where the notes are!

[russ p]

I can't imagine much of the onboard equipment would survive an electromagnetic pulse which I believe is part of an atomic explosion nor would the locomotives that were to haul them in later years

I hear there is bricked up tunnel somewhere.......

[Martin Shaw]

A long time ago, autumn 1972 aged 18, I joined the LMR S&T dept. My second day on the railway involved going to Watford Junc with a senior colleague to look at the two control trains stored in the carriage shed, adjacent to the St Albans branch. They were I think formed as 3 car sets, but of what stock I have no idea. To my untutored eye the equipment looked way beyond use and I do agree with an earlier poster, that the visit was likely to see if anything was worth recovering for re-use. The most striking memory though was of the carriage shed foreman, old enough to be my grandfather, addressing me as sir. Happy days.

Regards

Martin

Edited December 1, 2018 by Martin Shaw

[The Stationmaster]

I think we're getting in a tangle with the word 'strategic' in the title.  Forget war and think all sorts of other potential problems which could put a Control Office out of action then wonder how the railway would get round such a problem until the original one was rebuilt.  Everybody I ever came across who knew about these trains - and there weren't many such folk - knew them as 'Control Trains' with no hint whatsoever of the word 'strategic'.

[russ p]

I think we're getting in a tangle with the word 'strategic' in the title.  Forget war and think all sorts of other potential problems which could put a Control Office out of action then wonder how the railway would get round such a problem until the original one was rebuilt.  Everybody I ever came across who knew about these trains - and there weren't many such folk - knew them as 'Control Trains' with no hint whatsoever of the word 'strategic'.

Were there any instances of them actually been used Mike?

[iands]

Were there any instances of them actually been used Mike?

I agree with Mike's comments. My comments in post #4 regarding WW2 (rather than the 'nuclear age'), were based on comments of some of the older controllers in the then Area Control office at Doncaster, who recalled the coaches being used in the last war. The 'control train' would be moved out into the country away from any built up areas (because built up areas tended to get bombed) to provide control facilities to keep the rail network functioning. They weren't kept in one place for too long (just in case the Luftwafa twigged what they were) and moved about the local area. During sustained periods of air raid activity (e.g. several days/nights in a row) the control coaches were often shunted into tunnels for protection, just in case, to avoid being spotted. Cables the run out from the coaches to connect up to the telegraph wire "control circuits" so as to maintain communication links to keep the job going and/or coordinating rerouting trains around bomb affected areas.

['CHARD]

'The results confirmed that Class 31s can survive a nuclear explosion — but only to a point, as none of the goyles in the 100,000 rad group made it through. Brush Type 2s' ability to withstand extreme radiation exposure may come down to their simple bodies and slower cell cycles.'

 

Source: Discovery.com