What happens when a train misses a stop?

[royaloak]

I believe 'failure to stop' is treated as a SPAD

You believe wrong.

 

Were the driver and TM issued with a special stop order?

[royaloak]

It depends on who decided it would stop additionally at Watford Jcn (which the station staff might have requested but that's a Control decision) and how / whether that was communicated to the driver. Generally, no Special Stop Order - no stop. The inquest for a fail to call happens behind the scenes afterwards.

Which is where the SSO (or lack of it) is proof of whether it has been issued.

 

I have kept every SSO I have ever been issued!

[royaloak]

They are if scheduled stops are missed (at least by most TOCs) but there valid reasons, other than driver error, why an additional stop order might not be implemented.

 

John

Seriously?

I dont think so!

[royaloak]

Just had a look on the RSSB site, I wonder how much money and time was spent on that decision to “rebrand’ the SPAD definitions?

So basically every red signal passed (without Authority) is a Cat A SPAD but then classified A1 or A2 etc etc.

Thats not how I read it.

 

If its the drivers fault it is a CAT A SPAD

if its any other reason (signaller replacing signal to danger, fault etc etc) its a SPAR signal passed at red.

[royaloak]

I had occasion to be requested to do a special stop at Dunkeld- however, I didn't stop. Probably due to the fact the the information reached me too late to stop safely in the station. The guard had buzzed me up on the Cab to Cab just as I was passing the home signal at 55mph! Didn't answer till clear of the station only to find out that control had made the request, obviously far too late. Its quite possible in this occasion that the same happened yesterday 

I have had a similar situation where the signaller contacted me on the GSM-R asking if it would be possible for me to stop at 'A' station, I replied I would give it a go (immediate full service brake application) but it soon became clear it wasnt going to happen so brake released and a "sorry mate I am still going 50 at the ramp" to be told "okay mate thanks for trying".

 

It was all quite surreal how relaxed it all was.

Edited December 1, 2018 by royaloak

[caradoc]

There may be occasional circumstances where station staff request an SSO, due to the cancellation of a booked service, but it is refused because the train they asked to stop specially is already full and standing.

[royaloak]

WSM - funnily the planned doubling Worle - WSM seems to have been dropped and those of a certain age will remember some of this bit of route was 4 track....  Timetabling through station depends on perfect time keeping with almost all services passing. Thus it is not possible to regulate. The growth and density of traffic is pleasing but we will not now seem much retracking - the Filton bank replacement which parts of the NR monolith regard as "new" is only to allow IEPs to roll down to Bristol TM and and additional benefit is a byproduct.

 

It has to be said that since its opening ,signalling failures apart it has helped XC run better in the morning with 1V44 once a service slaughtered every day due to 2Kxx being run signals ahead now has a good chance of holding its own and even making PPM /charter/ right time at Plymouth.

 

In answer to the OP, if train stops, driver advises signal operator and provided not too far forward and no level crossings to be run over in reverse then authority to set back is likely to be given, if too far or traffic to dense driver may well be instructed to continue forward.  Up to the TOC to sort circulation of passengers back to correct stop.  

 

Authority to Issue a SSO is with the controlling TOC in agreement with NR control. Only occasionally will this be verbal - drivers sensibly like and perhaps need a written instruction - to bat off any delay issues attributed.  What is maddening is that if a TOC institutes and SSO to help passengers from another TOC  then the delay falls with the stopping party not the route cause even if agreement made, It is part of forcing a right time railway regardless of impact on passengers suffering a disrupted journey. It helps passengers further along the route but I am sure they would appreciate the help if it were they who were disrupted!

 

As drivers are no longer to be "buzzed up" due to distraction issues then TM/guard/ conductor can only convey a verbal request at stopping station in rear - also the likely place where SSO will be issued if a staffed station.  Equally for distraction issues it is not good practice to get a signal operator to stop a train to issue advice from his control that has originated from a TOC control.

 

Stations who off their own bat organise SSOs are getting few and fewer given the delay attribution/ responsible manager "game."  - sod the passenger by the way.... Often a taxi if compliant with TOC rules of supply will be cheaper than delay cost.

 

All good fun - somewhere over the rainbow of privatisation anyway ( rant off button pushed ! )

All that might be correct for one TOC (it sounds like XC) it doesnt apply at other TOCs who are able to treat their staff like adults and not little children who cant decide if it is safe or not to accept incoming calls!

[jonny777]

I have been on a few trains which forgot to stop at stations, for a variety of reasons. 

 

The first was in 1967 when, after an educational cruise, our special train from Tilbury to various Lincolnshire destinations was booked to stop at Grantham where IIRC a special connecting service was waiting for Sleaford, Boston and Skegness. 

 

According to those friends whose parents were among the hundreds on Grantham station, the station announcer duly announced the imminent arrival of a school cruise special train. I was used to getting ready to alight as we passed Aveling Barfords, and thought we might be leaving it a bit late to apply the brakes and the train sped through the station at about 60mph. 

 

We stopped rather suddenly somewhere near Peascliff tunnel and there was a long delay while everyone who had grabbed their suitcases and wandered towards the doors went and sat back down again. The obvious solution amongst us kids was to reverse back into the station, but this was not permitted and we finally ended up being turfed out at Newark and were told the next up service would be stopped to pick us up.

 

It turned out that the next up service was the Sunday equivalent of the Flying Scotsman, and I have no idea what the passengers thought of their non-stop service being stopped twice at Newark and Grantham; let alone having the first class invaded by a hundred teenage school kids with large amounts of luggage. 

 

Unfortunately, those on Sleaford and Boston stations had little or no idea what was going on; although conflicting rumours filtered through after a while.  

[caradoc]

All that might be correct for one TOC (it sounds like XC) it doesnt apply at other TOCs who are able to treat their staff like adults and not little children who cant decide if it is safe or not to accept incoming calls!

 

Good point royaloak; We had a situation on the ECML in Scotland where a Driver (not XC) stopped their train to receive a GSM-R Call. This was about the same time a TV programme was screened showing a Driver for the same TOC being interviwed by a reporter about their job while travelling at 125mph !

[GeoffAlan]

Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895.jpg

Beat me to it, I was looking for the self same photo.

[108]

Beat me to it, I was looking for the self same photo.

There's a similar image of a Fail To Stop Incident (probably not called that) at Dublin's Harourt Street terminus in the early 20th Century.

[Nearholmer]

How about a failure to stop (until only the last car was in the platform), caused by the driver unable to see the station?

 

In the 1970s, on a loco-hauled London Bridge to Uckfield train, on a very dark and stormy winter evening, with rain absolutely lashing down. Driver was proceeding fairly cautiously, slower than usual, because of the conditions, but both he and the second man still missed Edenbridge Town station until he was running through it. Emergency application; many commuters rudely wakened from their customary slumbers; several of those who had got up to alight unceremoniously deposited on their rears; stopped with about half of the last of eight cars in the platform.

 

The station had no signals, unlike, I think, every other one on the line, and the platform lighting was decidedly feeble, possibly still gas, but I reckon it took a fair bit of explaining.

 

EDIT: Yes, gas lighting, and beheaded signals, as per this photo http://www.michaeltaylor.ca/stations/edenbridge.html imagine this in pitch darkness.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Dunsignalling]

Seriously?

I dont think so!

See posts 2, 4 and 32. In the latter case I have heard of instances where a decision not to comply with a stop order on the grounds that to do so would cause an unsafe degree of overcrowding has been taken by the guard. Probably ex-BR, as modern recruitment processes seem designed to weed out anyone with a tendency to think on their feet.

 

I am fully aware that FTS incidents are not treated as SPADS by NR as they are not (usually) unsafe. However, some TOCs have, and may still, treat both similarly in the way they deal with the disciplinary aspect.

 

John

Edited December 2, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[david.hill64]

Like so many other rail staff in Derby, I used to commute on the Derby to Nottingham line. When the sprinters replaced the older DMU's, it wasn't at all unusual for the train to stop well beyond where intended at Spondon, occasionally requiring a reverse. The acceleration of the sprinters and the higher top speed meant that drivers had to learn new braking points.

[Hobby]

Probably ex-BR, as modern recruitment processes seem designed to weed out anyone with a tendency to think on their feet.

 

Why the continual digs at non BR staff? It's getting boring.

 

I've refused to move as have many of my colleagues when overcrowded. Just because we weren't on the railways since we were nippers doesn't mean we can't think for ourselves.

 

Can we stop the jibes please.

[Pete the Elaner]

I have experienced 2 fail to stops, both on the GE, where I used to live.

I was heading from Liverpool St to Colchester on the first. First stop was supposed to be Shenfield. We passed non-stop. Nobody in my carriage appeared to be bothered. I don't know how many disgruntled passengers got off at Chelmsford.

The second was on the Clacton Branch around 2001-2002. A stopping train had been cancelled so an announcement was made at Colchester that the next Wivenhoe - Thorpe - Clacton only train would also stop at Alresford & Gt Bentley, Alresford being my stop.

We passed through Alresford at line speed. When we got to Gt Bentley, those who were Alresford-bound (6 of us) got off. I asked the driver if he had been asked to stop at Alresford. He replied no & I responded that they had announced at Colchester that it was going to. He then produced a slip of paper with the SSQ instruction to stop at Gt Bentley, but Alresford was indeed not there.

The driver apologised for this but it was hardly his fault.

The six of us approached the staff member in the area. Gt Bentley has a level crossing which in those days was a gated one, therefore staffed. The staff member said he could not help because he worked for Network Rail (or was it Railtrack back then?), not Great Eastern!. We pointed out that this did not really matter to us & he worked for the railways so politely asked him to make a phone call on our behalf. He obviously got through to someone because 2 taxis were duly booked to take us to our destination.

[Dunsignalling]

Why the continual digs at non BR staff? It's getting boring.

 

I've refused to move as have many of my colleagues when overcrowded. Just because we weren't on the railways since we were nippers doesn't mean we can't think for ourselves.

 

Can we stop the jibes please.

No offence intended - my comment was aimed at "management culture" not individuals.

 

John

Edited December 3, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green]

Many yonks ago I experienced a 'failed to stop' incident. Back in the good-ole days of light road traffic in Ireland, the R.P.S.I. offered lineside buses for participants to photograph the May 'International' Railtour and I was on such a bus leap-frogging the train from Carrick on Suir. Having got a few shots en-route we piled out of the bus at Tipperary, where we were to rejoin the train, and the bus went on its way. After a while we hear that the loco ( No.4 ) had burst a boiler tube in section and would be taking no further part in the tour - but that a 'B' class diesel had been commandeered to rescue the train. The loco duly appeared from The ( Limerick ) Junction and disappeared to collect the train - then returned with No.4 plus train and shot straight through towards Limerick where we were staying overnight. There were no more service trains due that day and our chartered bus was long gone ............. another bus was organised but by the time it arrived the local hostelry was running short of the black stuff !    One of our friends from the Berliner Eisenbahnfreunde memorably summed it up with a verse of "We had a long wait at Tipperary" !

[Hobby]

No offence intended - my comment was aimed at "management culture" not individuals.

 

John

 

Thanks, John... The problem isn't really the "management" in the case of overcrowding but the way the "delay" system is set up within the franchise system.

 

As an aside one of my colleagues who joined the railway long after me and is many decades younger had to deal with a fire on her train recently and a full evacuation, I think that we can safely say that the "recruitment procedure" which brought her from outside the railways into our family has worked very well as she dealt with it all safely just as we should!

[ruggedpeak]

When I was at school the driver of one train home got confused as to what he was driving. We boarded a Reading to Redhill stopper but the driver thought he was taking the Gatwick Flyer (fast to the Redhill)! Took until Blackwater for him to figure it out, missing quite a few stops!

[caradoc]

One of the unforeseen consequences of privatisation and the associated Delay Attribution system concerned the last train from Carlisle to Dumfries; Under BR the set and crew were provided by Carlisle and so returned ECS there. If there were no passengers on the train at Annan for Dumfries the train simply turned there and went home, however Trust reporting requires either an arrival time at Dumfries (obviously false in these circumstances) to be input, or the train to be shown cancelled at Annan ! So the train had to run through to Dumfries regardless (the situation no longer applies as Scotrail now have Traincrew based at Dumfries and sets stable there overnight). 

[Argos]

I seem to recall reading a tale of a driver in pre-grouping days on the Buxton to Ashbourne line.

 

On the approach to Parsley Hay ( I think) he noticed the wooden platform in flames so continued on to Hartington where he reported the blaze.

 

His reward was to be disciplined and fined a week's wages for failing to make scheduled stop.

 

Seems a bit harsh!