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Ex LSWR rebuild coaches Help needed


Nearlymen
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Hi,

A couple of ex LSWR rebuilt coach questions for those in the know !

 

When Hornby was originally going to release these coaches the BR livery was going to be in BR Green but was changed to be Crimson. Now a little bit of research pulls up that these coaches were actually in re-varnished Malachite with BR lettering after nationalisation (some staying in this livery, some being repainted in Crimson). My query is how dark did revarnishing actually make Malachite go ? I found a short bit of film on youtube showing an Ex LSWR set down in the Seaton/Sidmouth area and allowing for colour change in the film they look pretty dark to me ? Does anyone have any first hand memories of said colours or maybe a better colour pic ?

 

https://youtu.be/bHjCxSN7vEk

the clip is about 44 seconds in.

 

Secondly when Originally announced Hornby had a pic of a green set in BR days (set 51 at Evercreech Junction in 1958) on their website in which one of the coaches was a diag 407 1st/3rd lav brake which Hornby don’t manufacture. Does anyone have a side elev pic of a Diag 407 ? Can this variant be cut and shut from the models Hornby currently make ? I did a bit of digging and know this particular coach ended up in the national collection but I’m interested in what the side elevation differences were from other diagrams

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/stop-press-ex-lswr-48-maunsell-rebuilt-58-coaches

 

Cheers

 

Clive

 

(slightly edited to for clarification)

 

Edited by Nearlymen
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I suspect that the varnishing got darker the more coats were applied.

 

Its clear from the video clip, however, that these are a dark green, with BR numbering. Pity there isnt any other green stock in shot to make a comparison against. 

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Yes, I agree this set is in 1956 Southern Green, almost certainly repainted direct from revarnished SR malachite rather than having an intermediate crimson stage. With a six-year repaint, three-year revarnish programme, the Southern was well placed to retain a fair amount of rolling stock in malachite until the 1956 scheme reintroduced green as the official regional coaching stock livery. The ready availability of green paint for electric stock no doubt helped to allow the "green as long as possible" policy to be maintained.

Ironically, a lot, almost certainly the majority, of secondary service stock was repainted into crimson, simply because the opportunity to repaint it after the war didn't arise until after crimson became the rule. This particular 2-set clearly managed a repaint before then.

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Thank you both for the replies ! You actually have said what I thought(but didn't write !), i.e. they look a lot like BR Southern Green to me but I did'nt want to preload my original question and steer anyone down that route. All the info I've found so far suggests they went from Malachite to Crimson, or just stayed malachite but revarnished, but the video kind of suggests that some may have got a full green repaint, interesting eh !

 

Now onto the diag 407 question ! Any takers out there /

 

Cheerio

 

Clive

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Thank you both for the replies ! You actually have said what I thought(but didn't write !), i.e. they look a lot like BR Southern Green to me but I did'nt want to preload my original question and steer anyone down that route. All the info I've found so far suggests they went from Malachite to Crimson, or just stayed malachite but revarnished, but the video kind of suggests that some may have got a full green repaint, interesting eh !

 

Now onto the diag 407 question ! Any takers out there /

 

Cheerio

 

Clive

The answer to a dia.407 conversion will be found in https://www.amazon.co.uk/LSWR-Carriages-1838-1900-Gordon-Weddell/dp/1874103089 - though you can pay well over a hundred quid if you want ............ as this coach doesn't have a 58' Maunsell chassis you're probably best off not buying a Hornby coach and chucking half of it away to start with - maybe someone'll do a 3D printed one !!?!

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The answer to a dia.407 conversion will be found in https://www.amazon.co.uk/LSWR-Carriages-1838-1900-Gordon-Weddell/dp/1874103089 - though you can pay well over a hundred quid if you want ............ as this coach doesn't have a 58' Maunsell chassis you're probably best off not buying a Hornby coach and chucking half of it away to start with - maybe someone'll do a 3D printed one !!?!

Actually if you want a drawing of diag 407 you won't find it in LSWR coaches Vol 1!  It's in LSWR Carriages in the 20th Century (effectively Vol 2), page 27.  It 's also on one of Mike King's sheets - LSWR 56' 0" Non-Corridor Stock, Sheet 2 of 2.

 

Hardly any LSWR non-corridors or  58ft rebuilds were painted BR(S) green - certainly none of the four diagrams modelled by Hornby except a handful of diag 31 TLs.  Most finished their days in Malachite green or Crimson.  And, as regards the photo on Hornby's website, although 2626 had been in set 51, after 1948 it was 'loose' though for the last several years of its life it was at Evercreech Junction with diag 285 CL 4654 - but they were never given a set No.  In the pic (which features in 'Southern Coaches in Colour' / Michael Welch / Noodle Books) both 2626 and 4654 are in malachite albeit with BR insignia.

 

In the set in the clip with a diag 407 BCL the accompanying 58ft rebuild is a diag 97 7 compartment BTL (not made by Hornby).  The diag 407 will be in Malachite while the diag 97 is, of course, crimson.  I would hazard a guess this is set 9, 11 or 12.  If you want to model one of sets  51-54 or 56 with a diag 98 BTL (as per Hornby) and a diag 407 BCL in BR days the best option would be 54 (disbanded 7/9/1957) as the other four had been disbanded by May 1952.  Set 54 comprised 2629 and 6480.

 

I would agree that Malachite would get darker with age and re-varnishing.  And, in any case, I would suggest it wasn't as different from BR(S) green as the offerings from the paint manufacturers might suggest!

 

Chris KT

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Once again thank you all for such detailed answers, I thought somebody here would have the information, it's much appreciated.

 

One small thing though and thats both coaches in the clip are green. I took a snap shot of the screen and colour corrected the picture slightly to approximate the true colour balance which then enhances highlights the detail as well.

 

 

By the way, if you look at the written details on the clip you'll see it's a teaser to buy DVD's and they look very interesting too !

 

Many thanks

 

Clive

 

(Not sure why the screen shot won't show ? Oh well ?)

Edited by Nearlymen
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Actually if you want a drawing of diag 407 you won't find it in LSWR coaches Vol 1!  It's in LSWR Carriages in the 20th Century (effectively Vol 2), page 27.  It 's also on one of Mike King's sheets - LSWR 56' 0" Non-Corridor Stock, Sheet 2 of 2.

 

Hardly any LSWR non-corridors or  58ft rebuilds were painted BR(S) green - certainly none of the four diagrams modelled by Hornby except a handful of diag 31 TLs.  Most finished their days in Malachite green or Crimson.  And, as regards the photo on Hornby's website, although 2626 had been in set 51, after 1948 it was 'loose' though for the last several years of its life it was at Evercreech Junction with diag 285 CL 4654 - but they were never given a set No.  In the pic (which features in 'Southern Coaches in Colour' / Michael Welch / Noodle Books) both 2626 and 4654 are in malachite albeit with BR insignia.

 

In the set in the clip with a diag 407 BCL the accompanying 58ft rebuild is a diag 97 7 compartment BTL (not made by Hornby).  The diag 407 will be in Malachite while the diag 97 is, of course, crimson.  I would hazard a guess this is set 9, 11 or 12.  If you want to model one of sets  51-54 or 56 with a diag 98 BTL (as per Hornby) and a diag 407 BCL in BR days the best option would be 54 (disbanded 7/9/1957) as the other four had been disbanded by May 1952.  Set 54 comprised 2629 and 6480.

 

I would agree that Malachite would get darker with age and re-varnishing.  And, in any case, I would suggest it wasn't as different from BR(S) green as the offerings from the paint manufacturers might suggest!

 

Chris KT

Yes - sorry, I was three years out and it is, indeed, the 'phantom' Volume 2 that applies ( built 1903 ). Colour swabs of 'malachite' and 'Green No.11' come with John Harvey's new HMRS tome ( https://hmrs.org.uk/southern-style-after-nationalisation-1948-1964.html ) ......... unfortunately I've not seen anything resembling decent daylight since I got my copy at Warley so can't comment on colour comparisons !

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Yes - sorry, I was three years out and it is, indeed, the 'phantom' Volume 2 that applies ( built 1903 ). Colour swabs of 'malachite' and 'Green No.11' come with John Harvey's new HMRS tome ( https://hmrs.org.uk/southern-style-after-nationalisation-1948-1964.html ) ......... unfortunately I've not seen anything resembling decent daylight since I got my copy at Warley so can't comment on colour comparisons !

So it's not just the East Midlands which seem to be permanently dank and grey at the moment then!  Yes I bought this book a few weeks ago (though I can't find it at the moment!).

 

Chris KT

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So it's not just the East Midlands which seem to be permanently dank and grey at the moment then!  Yes I bought this book a few weeks ago (though I can't find it at the moment!).

 

Chris KT

Not quite permanent down here .... there WAS a gleam of something up in the sky yesterday morning ( should remember what it was called - but ) but I didn't have the book with me on the bus, unfortunately ..........................................

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  • 1 month later...
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On 03/12/2018 at 10:50, Nearlymen said:

When Hornby was originally going to release these coaches the BR livery was going to be in BR Green but was changed to be Crimson. Now a little bit of research pulls up that these coaches were actually in re-varnished Malachite with BR lettering after nationalisation (some staying in this livery, some being repainted in Crimson). My query is how dark did revarnishing actually make Malachite go ? I found a short bit of film on youtube showing an Ex LSWR set down in the Seaton/Sidmouth area and allowing for colour change in the film they look pretty dark to me ? Does anyone have any first hand memories of said colours or maybe a better colour pic ?

 

https://youtu.be/bHjCxSN7vEk

the clip is about 44 seconds in.

 

 

 

I think you have to take care with the colours on amateur film of this age. The greens are notorious for becoming much darker as the film ages, and this seems especially true here. Look at the green on the station nameboards at the start of the film, for example - much darker than they actually were. And in the particular clip at around 44 seconds, look how dark the green trees appear in the background.

 

Not directly related to these coaches, but Bachmann seemed to have made a misjudgement with the dark green of the final production of Bulleid and BR MK1 coaches in green. The coaches look very attractive in the darker green (and I have quite a few of both), but I don't believe they were that dark and perhaps Bachmann had been misled by the colour photos of the time.  

 

 

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Is there any other evidence that these coaches ran in Green in BR days?

 

There is a picture here of S2626S in Green. Hornby modelled this in SR Green R4718 - would it simply be a matter of renumbering it? Or indeed any of the other SR Green coaches??

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On 14/02/2019 at 08:48, JohnR said:

Is there any other evidence that these coaches ran in Green in BR days?

 

There is a picture here of S2626S in Green. Hornby modelled this in SR Green R4718 - would it simply be a matter of renumbering it? Or indeed any of the other SR Green coaches??

Contrary to ever-so-many kit instructions ( etc.etc.etc.) there is no such thing as 'SR Green' but TWO distinct colours ( and a number of 'experiments' ). R4718 is in the darker pre-war green ( Olive Green / Sage Green / Maunsell Green ) and 2626 MIGHT have retained this into BR days - it is much more likely to have been repainted in 'Malachite' Green at some time ( considering it's rebuild date , this would probably have been post-war ) and would then have received BR insignia before eventually succumbing to red. I THINK Southern Style Vol.3 ( hmrs.org.uk/southern-style-after-nationalisation-1948-1964.html ) lists a handful of these rebuilds* that eventually carried BR Green before withdrawal - but without it in front of me I can't say whether 2626 was one of them.

 

* The only 58' rebuilds to carry BR green were all Dia.31 : Nos.169, 187, 219, 313, 320, 360 & 373

Edited by Wickham Green
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32 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

Which would be more common, a 2 or 3 car set of 58' rebuilt Maunsell coaches?

Or neither.

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

The Hornby coaches ran in 2 coach sets, but could have been strengthened with a loose Third. 

 

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Sorry, not a response to Jack's question but a matter arising from earlier in the thread.  The Railway Observer of June 1959 reported that a LSWR SL, 253, turned up at Exeter in May 1959 after being freshly revarnished.  What colour the paint was underneath the varnish is, sadly, not reported.  Neither is it known how long the coach stayed around Exeter but I believe, subject to checking, that it ended up in the Lancing Belle.

 

Chris 

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Guest Jack Benson
40 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

The Hornby coaches ran in 2 coach sets, but could have been strengthened with a loose Third. 

 

All pictures so far located indicate that there was at least one set of third brakes wandering around Devon and Cornwall, the all thirds tended to be used as strengtheners, see the enclosed image on the Sidmouth branch. The two car set was a well known feature of the Lyme Regis branch attached to 30583, unfortunately both King and Weddell are a bit vague on their use in the early 50s but that is OK as we only have a two car set.

 

Cheers

 

The following images are covered by the creative commons licence

 

BkThirds.jpg.00f876d81d4d40320dd0d8d682cfea0b.jpg30583-at-lyme-regis.jpg.2263ba4a3e8e0ca300256af035b684c6.jpg30323_240858.jpg.f447ad557edd0d923422ffc9e0c8f728.jpg

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nick C said:

I think the all-third in the last photo is one of the SECR "100-seater" 10-compartment thirds.

Indeed, it is likely to be a W-set as initially formed in 1958. It seems to have been common practice on the Lyme Regis branch to remarshall the resident set so that the guard was in the middle of the train, with the consequence that the set number was "hidden".

Edited by bécasse
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