York Power Station 500v O/head locomotive

[john new]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Can anyone confirm if that’s the original colour? The only photos I can find of it at work in York are black and white so I wasn’t sure.

 

I’d also be interested to know whether it’s directly owned by the DVLR now or privately owned and kept there, and what their plans are for it. 

According to Darsley's book on industrial railways of York they were originally a light green (Although a photo in the same book suggests a mid-green main colour) and latterly pale blue with no lining.

 

Source = R.R. Darsley., Industrial Railways of York,  Issue 139 of the Industrial Railway Record. Industrial Railway Society. pps -373-377 (1994?)

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Dava said:

Could it run on batteries only? The English Electric steeple cab at the Battlefield Line runs on batteries and some of those locos were b/e only. Recognise traction batteries are expensive!

 

Dava

Is that the ex-Spondon one that used to be at the Coventry museum site before it closed? I think that particular one was designed for an even lower voltage and always had dual overhead wire/battery capability, but if you wanted to then modern battery technology might allow you to fit them relatively unobtrusively to a previously wire-only loco.

 

Having been to the DVLR a few years ago it does seem like the relatively short length of the line and fairly short trains would make a battery electric quite a suitable loco. From memory they also use a shunt release method (with a run-round loop at the end nearer to Osbaldwick but no loop at the Murton Park end), so each operating day uses two locos, with the locos working alternate trains. So potentially if absolutely necessary there’s extra time to recharge in between (while the other loco is working the service) as well.

 

I realise it’s slightly different as they’re narrow gauge and relatively lightweight whereas the DVLR is standard gauge, but I’ve been told the Severn Lamb trains we have for Mail Rail (for the museum train ride) can manage two normal operating days at a time, although they’re generally put on charge at the end of each day. The original Post Office system had 1920s-built English Electric battery rescue/engineering work locos which were similarly impressive, being able to haul two full trains round the entire system on one charge. And then there’s Steeple Grange as well. So battery power can work well for short heritage lines, although I’m not sure about standard gauge specifically.

 

Bringing it back to the York loco, was it a standard design that was also supplied as a battery electric for other users? If not Kerr Stuart then there were definitely similar locos built by other companies. My concern personally would be if the original appearance of the wire-electric loco was altered too much.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, john new said:

According to Darsley's book on industrial railways of York they were originally a light green (Although a photo in the same book suggests a mid-green main colour) and latterly pale blue with no lining.

It sounds as though that might be the later livery in the EARM photo then, as it’s in unlined pale blue.

 

Was there originally more than one of them?

[john new]

39 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

It sounds as though that might be the later livery in the EARM photo then, as it’s in unlined pale blue.

 

Was there originally more than one of them?

Yes. Not identical engines put the power station had two 0-4-0 steeple cabs and one electric powered crane.

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, john new said:

one electric powered crane.

As in, electric powered from the overhead wire? Or a more conventional electric crane?

 

To be honest, I hadn’t realised it was a large enough operation to have needed more than one loco and was even initially quite surprised that an overhead electric loco was used (of course it makes sense in a power station environment, but compared to somewhere like Kearsley York seems to have been quite a small system).

[john new]

28 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

As in, electric powered from the overhead wire? Or a more conventional electric crane?

 

To be honest, I hadn’t realised it was a large enough operation to have needed more than one loco and was even initially quite surprised that an overhead electric loco was used (of course it makes sense in a power station environment, but compared to somewhere like Kearsley York seems to have been quite a small system).

Served the council’s depot too. Interesting track layout with a circle incorporated. Not a merry-go-round as we think of today but an early way of dealing with fulls and empties.

 

The crane - Overhead power from a trolley type contact single arm/pole. 
 

The Dursley book is well worth it if you can find a copy. NRM Library has a copy and I expect it can be got through inter loan at your local library.

[Dava]

18 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Is that the ex-Spondon one that used to be at the Coventry museum site before it closed? I think that particular one was designed for an even lower voltage and always had dual overhead wire/battery capability, but if you wanted to then modern battery technology might allow you to fit them relatively unobtrusively to a previously wire-only loco.

 

Having been to the DVLR a few years ago it does seem like the relatively short length of the line and fairly short trains would make a battery electric quite a suitable loco. From memory they also use a shunt release method (with a run-round loop at the end nearer to Osbaldwick but no loop at the Murton Park end), so each operating day uses two locos, with the locos working alternate trains. So potentially if absolutely necessary there’s extra time to recharge in between (while the other loco is working the service) as well.

 

I realise it’s slightly different as they’re narrow gauge and relatively lightweight whereas the DVLR is standard gauge, but I’ve been told the Severn Lamb trains we have for Mail Rail (for the museum train ride) can manage two normal operating days at a time, although they’re generally put on charge at the end of each day. The original Post Office system had 1920s-built English Electric battery rescue/engineering work locos which were similarly impressive, being able to haul two full trains round the entire system on one charge. And then there’s Steeple Grange as well. So battery power can work well for short heritage lines, although I’m not sure about standard gauge specifically.

 

Bringing it back to the York loco, was it a standard design that was also supplied as a battery electric for other users? If not Kerr Stuart then there were definitely similar locos built by other companies. My concern personally would be if the original appearance of the wire-electric loco was altered too much.

Yes the Battlefield line one is ex Spondon. Now in black. 
The Manchester industrial museum has this one in b/e mode. Ribble railway has one. These were all English Electric built at the former Dick Kerr tram works at Preston where the design originated and had many variations including overhead, batteries or both. 
I built a 7mm scale model of one a few years ago.

 

If you work at Mail by Rail I really enjoyed a visit a few years ago. I’d like to do the tunnel walk as one of the best bits we’re the glimpses of stored trains in the return loops lower down.

 

Dava

 

[Dava]

Link to useful photos about the Spondon & York locos here

 

http://www.emus.co.uk/spondon.htm

 

Dava

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, Dava said:

If you work at Mail by Rail I really enjoyed a visit a few years ago. I’d like to do the tunnel walk as one of the best bits we’re the glimpses of stored trains in the return loops lower down.

 

Dava

Thank you - that would have been a few years before me though as I only started last year (as a front of house team member who sometimes drives). Since I started driving there I’ve become more interested in the controls on different types of electric trains. The ‘train graveyard’ as it’s known is more visible on the tunnel tours (which follow the route of the train ride) although sadly Royal Mail doesn’t allow us to actually descend into it at the moment - access would be through a locked door. I’m told that some staff members a few years ago did get the opportunity to visit the tunnels beyond the ride area though. I would need to check this as I can’t remember which (if any) of the trains in the tunnels have actually been officially transferred to the museum collection - obviously the ones in the gallery/depot upstairs have.

 

Is the battery loco at MoSI in Manchester actually used for the demonstration line there? Although I’m not sure how that works anyway now as it’s been shortened by the Ordsall Chord works. When I went to MoSI a few months ago not much of the museum was open due to the refurbishment works.

 

 I was surprised, when I first heard about it, to find that Kerr Stuart had built the York loco as to me they’re not the most obvious manufacturer for an industrial electric loco (compared to, say, English Electric/Greenbat/Hawthorn Leslie etc. - I think the latter built the Kearsley locos).

[009 micro modeller]

6 minutes ago, Dava said:

Link to useful photos about the Spondon & York locos here

 

http://www.emus.co.uk/spondon.htm

 

Dava

I wonder why they chose such a low voltage? 200V DC as opposed to about 500 as used on some similar lines.

[Artless Bodger]

On 10/06/2023 at 17:05, 009 micro modeller said:

Is the battery loco at MoSI in Manchester actually used for the demonstration line there?

It seems it was, at least in 2017, as in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdiWwlV52ek

 

[Ben B]

I read in one of the mags at the weekend (Trackside, I think) that there's a long-term plan to have the loco at the Derwent Valley made functional, powered/charged by renewables as the site is quite breezy, and there's room for solar panels. The piece said it would be done in conjunction with York Uni. Should be good :)

[Artless Bodger]

On 10/06/2023 at 09:36, 009 micro modeller said:

As in, electric powered from the overhead wire? Or a more conventional electric crane?

There's a photo of a trolley wire powered crane at the L&Y Liverpool, North Mersey Goods Depot. I cannot remember on which website I saw it - quite possibly on RMweb. It looks like the crane had a short jib, fixed elevation below the trolley wire level so no chance of contact with it.

 

Dockside cranes were also often powered from trolley wires strung along the adjacent buildings - certainly the Stothert and Pitt ones at APM were, in East Mill the wires were bracketed off the coal bunkers fed by the cranes from lighters or railway wagons, and in West Mill (non dockside) along the boiler house wall. Main thing to avoid was swinging the grab into them as the trolley arms were attached to the portal structure.

East Mill wharf, river Medway to left, bunkers ahead, structure extreme right is part of the coal hopper feed and ash plant for the East Mill Stirling boilerhouse. Trolley wires (400V DC iirc) along upper bunker wall. The cranes could run beyond the trolley wires using an umbilical cable.

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

28 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

It seems it was, at least in 2017, as in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdiWwlV52ek

 

For passenger rides as well?

[Artless Bodger]

Probably not as it does not appear to have any form of continuous brake, despite screw drawgear. I think fitting a comprssor or exhauster might be difficult in the space available?

[Dava]

Here’s the Gauge O one I built back in 2016. Rather lightweight & powered on one axle. 
 

[Morello Cherry]

These popped up on flickr today

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[iands]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

This cropped up on flickr today

 

 

I was aware that the DVLR were trying to relocate the loco back to York for a restoration project. Looks like it has arrived.

[009 micro modeller]

38 minutes ago, iands said:

I was aware that the DVLR were trying to relocate the loco back to York for a restoration project. Looks like it has arrived.

Presumably the project will take place at the DVLR itself? Is there any way we can donate to the restoration etc.? I’m quite interested to see their plans for it (appreciate though that it may not be the first thing on the list given that they have the steam loco as well now and all the day to day stuff). It seems an extremely suitable location for that particular loco to be preserved.

[iands]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Presumably the project will take place at the DVLR itself? Is there any way we can donate to the restoration etc.? I’m quite interested to see their plans for it (appreciate though that it may not be the first thing on the list given that they have the steam loco as well now and all the day to day stuff). It seems an extremely suitable location for that particular loco to be preserved.

I understand that the restoration is planned to take place at the DVLR. However, the restoration of steam loco and a Coles crane are currently ongoing, so may be a while before any real work starts on it. Try dvlr.org.uk, there may be a "donate" page. 

[Rubythursday]

On 19/06/2023 at 16:49, 009 micro modeller said:

Presumably the project will take place at the DVLR itself? Is there any way we can donate to the restoration etc.? I’m quite interested to see their plans for it (appreciate though that it may not be the first thing on the list given that they have the steam loco as well now and all the day to day stuff). It seems an extremely suitable location for that particular loco to be preserved.

Yes the restoration will take place at the DVLR but it joins our long list of projects! The main purpose of acquiring the loco was to prevent it going to scrap and to save a piece of local history. The first part of the project is to restore it cosmetically and then we will move on to mechanical overhaul. We have a donation button on our website!

We are currently fund raising for a shed to put the steam and electric loco in. The steam loco is also a long term project. The 1941 Drewry should be completed this year, with the Coles Rail Crane next year. Then we can start on the Power Station Loco. We are all volunteers and we also have to maintain our current working fleet, but we are making great progress.

[Ben B]

3 hours ago, Rubythursday said:

Yes the restoration will take place at the DVLR but it joins our long list of projects! The main purpose of acquiring the loco was to prevent it going to scrap and to save a piece of local history. The first part of the project is to restore it cosmetically and then we will move on to mechanical overhaul. We have a donation button on our website!

We are currently fund raising for a shed to put the steam and electric loco in. The steam loco is also a long term project. The 1941 Drewry should be completed this year, with the Coles Rail Crane next year. Then we can start on the Power Station Loco. We are all volunteers and we also have to maintain our current working fleet, but we are making great progress.

 

It's a great little site (and as that article in Model Rail showed a few years back, an ideal prototype micro layout!), and it amazed me just how much stock you managed to fit onto the line :)