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Good evening.  After almost 9 years as a member of RMWeb, I thought it was about time I started my own thread, so here goes. Forgive my verbosity, but I would like to give you the background story.

 

My first railway memory is of standing on the platform at Garelochhead station. I don't remember if we had just arrived, or were about to depart, but I remember being fascinated by the whole experience. We lived in the village for 4 years, from spring 1980 to summer 1984, and often travelled by train to visit Glasgow, or to travel "down south" to visit my Grandparents. I loved every moment of every trip: watching the levers being pulled for the signals, standing and hearing the sound of the approaching train as it echoed across the valley, then watching a huge blue diesel locomotive (always in my mind it’s a class 37 with split-headcode boxes) moving irresistibly up the platform towards me, seeing the tablets being exchanged, and the rattling row of blue and grey Mk1 carriages swinging behind. Other early memories include a Sunday school outing by train from Garelochhead for a picnic by Loch Lomond at Ardlui, and walks in the hills, trying to time it so we could watch trains pass over Garelochhead viaduct. Even after we moved away, we would often return to visit friends, sometimes but train, soemtimes not, but I always tried to find an excuse to visit the station. If you’re not familiar with it, there are some fantastic evocative pictures on Ernie’s Railway Archive which really give the feel of that place and time:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/sets/72157685023339563

 

My first model railway memory is of looking up at my Dad's layout in the lean-to alongside our house in Garelochhead. He modelled (and indeed still models today) the Southern Region in the 50s and 60s, with Triang EMUs and a Wrenn Brighton Belle running backwards and forwards with an occasional steam express or diesel thrown in for variety.  Like most people on here I had a train set as a child, starting with a roundy-roundy on a 6x4 sheet of ply, and then starting (but never finishing) a more complex layout in my parents loft. Then there was the inevitable break while I went off to university, got serious about girls, and started my first job.

 

My interest in model railways never really went away, I just didn't have space or time to express it. That changed when my then girlfriend (now wife) and I got our first house, and my Dad gave me a Bachmann 37 (37038) for Christmas. I built a couple of 4 foot x 1 foot baseboards for a simple out and back, fiddle yard to terminus, which got trains running but never progressed to scenery.  I soon got tired of that, and the baseboards had severe limitations being too shallow, too flimsy, and topped with thin hardboard which was cheap but I never found very satisfactory. They didn't survive past our first house move.

 

At our second house I built 2 new 4 foot by 18 inch baseboards, with deeper sides and 9mm ply tops, which I mounted on shelf brackets.  On them I laid out an MPD with aspects of a Timesaver and sidings for an Inglenook, thinking that shunting puzzles would give me the operating interest missing from my first attempt, and they did, for a while.  But even that didn’t keep me satisfied, and rather than progressing to scenery and detailing stock, I started to think about adding a fiddleyard and a helix to access other levels, and my ambitions started to turn to my dream layout.  However, life changed with the arrival of our first 2 children and some extended periods away from home with work, and the layout stagnated. The dream seemed a long way over the horizon.

 

post-8555-0-77478100-1544009968_thumb.jpg

 

Now I have 3 children, and we have moved to Australia for 2 years. Surely this means layout building is even less practical? Well yes, and all my stock and tools have gone into storage waiting for our return.  But it actually presents a great opportunity to plan for when I get home. I’m in my 40s now, and I ought to be able to research and plan things properly like a grown-up, rather than just rush in impetuously as I did in my youth. So I keep telling myself, anyway.

 

After that introduction, I'm sure it will come as no surprise to anyone that my dream layout is of Garelochhead, circa 1980-84.  There is an excellent signalling diagram showing the track plan (from slightly earlier) on John Hinson’s Signal Box website: https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=807

 

I think that is enough for tonight, and tomorrow I will write about how (and why) I want to turn Garelochhead into Garelochside. And how I would love your help.

 

Good night all.

 

Hugh

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What a lovely introduction. I find the research and planning stage is a large part of the enjoyment of any layout, so to have the enforced time to really do things properly is a boon.

 

Good luck and keep us informed.

 

Best

Scott

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What a lovely introduction. I find the research and planning stage is a large part of the enjoyment of any layout, so to have the enforced time to really do things properly is a boon.

 

Good luck and keep us informed.

 

Best

Scott

 

Thanks Scott.  I have been researching this on and off for years and have found out all sorts of interesting and only tangentialy related things along the way.  As for posting, I can't promise that the quantity or the quality will remain the same (life has a habit of intervening) but I will try.

 

Hugh

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Hi Hugh

 

Your chosen era matches my own precisely, my base rules for anything that is allowed to run on my west highland line layout are that they must be steam heat, BR blue and un-refurbished. (I make an exception for ETHEL's). Garelochead is one of the stations that I am modelling on my WHL based layout.

 

I find researching and planning a layout almost as much fun as actually building and running. The internet is a fantastic research tool no matter where you are in the world. I shudder when I think about how many Google searches and how much time I have spent seeking information for my WHL project. I also recommend Ebay for finding old books at knock down prices although you will of course have higher postage costs whilst in Australia. 

 

You are right in your endorsement of Ernie Brack's Flickr photographs, these have been a major source of my research activity. I have built up quite a collection of information on the WHL over the years and am happy to share material with you (or anyone else for that matter) if required. When next updating my layout thread I will post a couple of pictures of my collection of books showing the various 1980's publications which should help you create a list if you choose to do so. I guess you know that Garelochead was No 11 of Ian Futers West Highland wanderings written for Railway Modeller and published in their July 2007 edition.

 

Good luck with your research work. I look forward to reading about your efforts on RM Web.

 

Rob

  

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Good evening all. Time for another post.

 

So I have been planning to model Garelochhead for years, and it has always been my dream layout, but the detail has evolved subtly.

 

At first, I dreamed of modelling it at full scale, with no compression or compromises.  Unfortunately over the years I have had to accept that I'm never going to have a house big enough to hold a true scale model in OO Gauge without winning the lottery, and even if I do win the big one it would be an unrealistically large layout for me to build by myself in my lifetime. I’m a solitary modeller (it’s my private escape from the world) so I don’t really want to recruit others to help me (excepting your good selves on here, who are pleasingly at arms length!), and I'm not prepared to change scale because (a) I've got too much invested in OO already and (b) I like OO! So, some selective compression is going to be required.

 

In our second house, after we had finished some building work, I was able to claim one side wall and the end wall of the garage as my railway space. That gives me a maximum of 16 foot, end to end, and maximum width of 4 foot at the inner end by the door to the house. Realistically, any subsequent house move is unlikely to give me a bigger space. Realising that I couldn't get everything I wanted into a single 16 foot length, I resolved to build a helix at the inner end, and have 3 levels:

  •     Fiddle yard, at about 0.8m above the floor.
  •     My existing TMD boards, at about 1.1m above the floor.
  •     Garelochhead, with the track level at about 1.72m above the floor -

One of the reasons for this was I always remembered looking UP the hill at the station as we walked (or drove) up the approach road.  I'm 1.76m tall and I want to look in through the carriage windows on the level when I stand up, or look up at the trains when I'm sitting down. I built the first iteration of the helix and a temporary fiddle yard as part of my TMD layout, but I don’t have any pictures to hand. Moving on.

 

Another factor is that I expect we will have to move house again (my employer insists on it periodically – such as now), so even though I’m never going to exhibit the layout, it needs to be built on separate baseboards that would be easy to separate, transport and store.

 

With these in mind, I started to sketch out how the station might look. At first I tried to include extra features, such as a second siding in the down yard (next to the old turntable siding), and justified it by relocating the timber traffic from further North. However, over time I have decided that I actually prefer the real layout, and so I have tried to change as little as possible, and just compress it to fit the space available. By 1980 the turntable was long gone, but all the other track features were basically the same as in the John Hinson plan linked in my first post. I believe the dock siding was taken out of use in 1981 (I’m sure I found a document online that gave an exact date, but I blowed if I can find it now), but because it was open at the start of my period and I vaguely remember seeing it used to park a Tamper between possessions, I want to include it. This was one of my early sketches, which I did mainly to try to capture the atmosphere I want. Clearly the pointwork at the lefthand (North) end is far too compressed to work in reality:

 

post-8555-0-38132200-1544095536_thumb.jpg

 

I then did something similar on the computer. Again I thought the pointwork was a little too close together, but it hints at the scenic aim.

 

post-8555-0-00896100-1544095561_thumb.jpg

 

So I then sketched it out in Anyrail to prove I could make something work. I used Peco Streamline on this proof of concept, but I haven’t made any final decisions at what track I’ll use when the time comes.

 

post-8555-0-27260300-1544095582.jpg

 

So, having decided that the track plan wouldn’t change, and that I could make it fit in the space I had available, I now started thinking about controlling the signals and points. As I said in my intro, I loved the whole operation of the railway, not just the trains, and I was fascinated by the signalbox and its mysterious workings. I would love to recreate Garelochhead’s fully interlocked lever frame, and operate my points and signals in a nearly prototypical manner. To that end (and here is where my trip to Australia becomes really fortuitous as I can save loads on postage!) I intend to buy a Modratec locking frame (https://modratec.com/index.php) which I can build in 2019.  At first it can just be an interesting desk toy, with added logic puzzle, but when I return to Uk and build the layout (eventually) it will control the station.

 

So, John Hinson has given me the signal diagram, surely now it’s all sorted? Well, no, and here is why this topic is “Garelochside” and not “Garelochhead”. As I said earlier, I usually model (or play trains) by myself. Sometimes I do have like-minded friends pay me a visit, and one day when they are older my children might take an interest, but for now there is just me. And that means I won’t be able to drive and operate the frame at the same time. Having looked at other signalling diagrams on John Hinson’s site for West Highland line locations such as Rhu (https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=469) it seemed obvious to include a Closing Lever, and I thought I could do it using the spare levers in the Garelochhead frame. The only visible sign on the model would be the Down Home signal which would now be a bracket signal with 2 arms, but that was going to be off-scene and not modelled anyway, so no problem!

So here, for your inspection, is my attempt at Garelochside’s signalbox diagram:

 

post-8555-0-58847100-1544095603_thumb.jpg

 

The changes are as follows:

  • Lever 9 becomes the closing lever.
  • FPL added to points 7, operated by Lever 13
  • Down Through signal, operated by lever 15

This is where I would really appreciate all the comments, help and feedback that you can give. I have thoroughly enjoyed researching this, and have given it my best shot, but I am not a railwayman or a signalling engineer, and I have made a few guesses along the way. I would love to learn where I have gone wrong, and hopefully I can then put it right!

 

Many thanks for reading again.

Good night.

Hugh

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Just a thought - and I do like the plans and ideas shown a lovely project in the making.

 

Would the distant signals have become fixed ones by the 1980s ? If that was the case then No1 lever as closing lever would seem to work better than having a closing lever mid frame - my only experience of closing levers/ king levers has been on the Ffestiniog Railway and these were arranged at or almost the end of frames at Dduallt and Rhiw goch.  Planned for end at Minffordd and TYB planned boxes - these never happened being overtaken by power points and colour lights with a form of automated working.

 

Have fun and I hope you can get to perhaps make dioramas of sections of layout for eventual incorporation

Robert.   

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Would the distant signals have become fixed ones by the 1980s ? If that was the case then No1 lever as closing lever would seem to work better than having a closing lever mid frame

That's a good question about the distants. They were certainly gone by 1985, as shown in the photo at this link:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/37018109481/in/album-72157686481907854/

 

Personally though I am hoping they were still there in 1980 so I can include them - I like the splash of yellow on the frame and the extra pull for through moves.

 

As for where the closing lever sat, both Rhu (11 of 22) and Gorton (7 of 13) had it slap bang in the middle of the frame so I don't know if different frame manufacturers arranged them differently?

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That's a good question about the distants. They were certainly gone by 1985, as shown in the photo at this link:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/37018109481/in/album-72157686481907854/

 

Personally though I am hoping they were still there in 1980 so I can include them - I like the splash of yellow on the frame and the extra pull for through moves.

 

As for where the closing lever sat, both Rhu (11 of 22) and Gorton (7 of 13) had it slap bang in the middle of the frame so I don't know if different frame manufacturers arranged them differently?

 

Normally in my experience closing levers are somewhere towards the middle of frames because in that site it is usually easier to arrange the locking and it can save bars in the locking tray (depending on the type of locking.

 

The distants might well have changed in later years but almost all the diagrams I can find, albeit no later than the 1960s, show working distants.  It really needs somebody expert on latterday signalling changes in the area you intend to model to explain what went on.  For example were the signals replaced by reflectorised distant boards in order to reduce costs?

 

When it comes to signalling, where there can be detailed Company/Region specific bear traps just waiting for someone to fall into them, there is no substitute for careful research.  Ideally this should be 'educated research' so you understand what you are looking at but a good substitute for lack of knowledge of, say, signalling. is careful study of signalbox diagrams or even copying the arrangements at particular places which are similar to what you have in mind.  The only thing you have missed in doing that when providing yourself with a closing lever is a ground signal at 7A point end/13 FPL (look at Rhu which might be a clue, although perversely some things suggest it might not be).  The reason for my saying this is that there is nothing to prevent No.7 points being moved once  No. 15 signal  has been returned to danger and that very definitely is not acceptable in relatively modern signalling practice but the NBR might well have got round it some other way.

 

Incidentally I'm not sure quite how a closing lever would work on a Modratec frame as the principle would inevitably require a lever with three positions, viz -

Lever standing normal - the 'ordinary' interlocking is fully working

Middle position/part stroke  - Levers 1, 2, 3, and 15 (and ?18?) are all free to be reversed with the various points set in the relevant positions.

Lever standing fully reversed - All levers are locked in the 'box closed' position with opposing signals off.

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This looks like a lovely project but I'm not at all clear why you can't drive the trains and operate the frame at the same time. The operation is very simple even when operating solo. The levers in most case will be operated when the train is stationary. At most stations the more complex manoeuvres of crossing trains will be more the exception than the rule.

 

To my mind, a closing lever is atypical for the WHL. Rhu was an exception but I don't believe any of the more typical island platform stations had one.

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An interesting thread, thanks for the comments about my Flickr site, its proving quite popular this year with hits approaching 7 million and a total to date of over 26 million since inception. 

 

My files are as usual in a mess but I think the 14 images just uploaded to Flickr of Garelochhead are new to the site. Link to photostream is https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/?

 

I will insert them into the album asap https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157685023339563

 

 Dates  are from the early 80's to 1987.

 

Ernie

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Normally in my experience closing levers are somewhere towards the middle of frames because in that site it is usually easier to arrange the locking and it can save bars in the locking tray (depending on the type of locking.

 

The distants might well have changed in later years but almost all the diagrams I can find, albeit no later than the 1960s, show working distants.  It really needs somebody expert on latterday signalling changes in the area you intend to model to explain what went on.  For example were the signals replaced by reflectorised distant boards in order to reduce costs?

 

When it comes to signalling, where there can be detailed Company/Region specific bear traps just waiting for someone to fall into them, there is no substitute for careful research.  Ideally this should be 'educated research' so you understand what you are looking at but a good substitute for lack of knowledge of, say, signalling. is careful study of signalbox diagrams or even copying the arrangements at particular places which are similar to what you have in mind.  The only thing you have missed in doing that when providing yourself with a closing lever is a ground signal at 7A point end/13 FPL (look at Rhu which might be a clue, although perversely some things suggest it might not be).  The reason for my saying this is that there is nothing to prevent No.7 points being moved once  No. 15 signal  has been returned to danger and that very definitely is not acceptable in relatively modern signalling practice but the NBR might well have got round it some other way.

 

Incidentally I'm not sure quite how a closing lever would work on a Modratec frame as the principle would inevitably require a lever with three positions, viz -

Lever standing normal - the 'ordinary' interlocking is fully working

Middle position/part stroke  - Levers 1, 2, 3, and 15 (and ?18?) are all free to be reversed with the various points set in the relevant positions.

Lever standing fully reversed - All levers are locked in the 'box closed' position with opposing signals off.

 

Thank you for having a look over my design, and for the information on the closing levers. That ties in with what I saw on the other locations I looked at, so I will keep the closing lever at 9.

 

I'm not sure if the distants were replaced with reflectorised boards, or just fixed at caution until all the signals were removed in the build up to RETB. Either way, they will be off scene and not modelled, so the lever (if it is used) won't be connected to anything although I would like to include it in the interlocking. I will keep looking for references or photographs that give a date for the distants ceasing to be operated from the box, but so far they seem to have been very camera shy.

 

If missing out one ground signal is my only mistake, then I will take that as a great compliment from someone such as yourself. Thank you! However, I am not sure the NBR would have fitted one: they seem to have been very "frugal" with ground signals, subsuduary signals and the like.  For example, there is not, and never was as far as I can tell, a signal controlling moves into the turntable siding, and there doesn't appear to have been a "Limit of Shunt" for movements coming out either! Probably the signalman was meant to withdraw the token and Shunt into Section, but perhaps they just relied on the West Highland being a long way from Head Office and any visiting inspectors! I don't have all my books with me in Australia, but I seem to remember John Thomas in his book saying something about this for the area north of Crianlarich, and I doubt the southern end was much different: No doubt the signalman at Craigendoran would have spotted any official visitors and the telegraph wires would have been singing!

 

With regard to moving points 7 after 15 has been returned to danger, my understanding of long section working was that 15 could only be returned to danger when the box is opened again, which would only take place when there were no trains in the long section and the long section token had been returned?

 

I'm not sure how the closing lever is acheived in the modratec frame either, but one of the example frames shown on his website has one, so it must be possible somehow.

 

Hugh

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This looks like a lovely project but I'm not at all clear why you can't drive the trains and operate the frame at the same time. The operation is very simple even when operating solo. The levers in most case will be operated when the train is stationary. At most stations the more complex manoeuvres of crossing trains will be more the exception than the rule.

 

To my mind, a closing lever is atypical for the WHL. Rhu was an exception but I don't believe any of the more typical island platform stations had one.

 

You are probably right that I could operate both, and there may be some occassions when I will, but I think there will be quite a few occassions when I won't want to, so I'd like to have that option to simplify things.

 

I agree that the closing lever probably was atypical on the WHL.  My only source of signalling information is what's on John Hinson's website and he hasn't listed all the stations, and most of the books about the line that I have found don't give much info about how each station was signalled. If you have an additional source of info, or personal experience you could share, I'd be very interested to learn more. In my mind the key point when making the change was that although it wasn't common, it wasn't unheard of, so it's within the bounds of possibility.

 

Thanks.

 

Hugh

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An interesting thread, thanks for the comments about my Flickr site, its proving quite popular this year with hits approaching 7 million and a total to date of over 26 million since inception. 

 

My files are as usual in a mess but I think the 14 images just uploaded to Flickr of Garelochhead are new to the site. Link to photostream is https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/?

 

I will insert them into the album asap https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157685023339563

 

 Dates  are from the early 80's to 1987.

 

Ernie

 

Thanks Ernie - the first 2 are just what I'm trying to acheive.

 

Hugh

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Good evening all,

 

As part of the preparation for buying a Modratec lever frame, I have been working on the SigScribe4 document, which is their software for working out the locking. I have got most of the way there, but I don't know how to get the Closing Lever to work, so I have emailed off for assitance. I'm not sure if anyone here has done one and is able to help?

 

Here's a screenshot of where I've got to so far...

 

post-8555-0-41706900-1544523765_thumb.png

 

It has been quite fun setting it all out and then having a play with the interlocking. However, I'm feeling a bit stuck now, so time to go and do something else for a while.

 

Good night.

 

 

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Evening all,

 

Harold at Modratec got back to me very quickly in response to my email for help, and following his advice I've been building an Interlocking Table File, which has been quite an education! It's like a logic puzzle, but one where I only understand half the rules before I start. I think I've worked out what to do to get the closing lever to work, but in the process I've somehow managed to lock the whole frame solid! I've looked over it again.... and again... and can't see where I'm going wrong.  :scratchhead:  So, I'm stuck and waiting for more assistance. Time to go and make another cup of tea and try to resist buying new rolling stock which I don't need. :no:

 

Good night.

 

Hugh

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