Northern Powerhouse? Unlikely if this is true.

[black and decker boy]

8 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

I wonder if perhaps some of you bright chaps in the industry can help me out with a query?

 

Back in the 19th century, clever Victorian surveyors found the less difficult routes across the Pennines - some we still have, some such as Woodhead we don't. The basis of the routes was to follow river valleys, which inevitably are winding and curved, as far as reasonable, and then build a tunnel of up to around three miles to get under the highest part of the hills.

 

If we now want high speed rail, presumbly it isn't enough just to follow existing alignments because of the curves. As there isn't any magical route that no-one has yet discovered, the only realistic alternative is a long straightish tunnel, from somewhere just east of Manchester, to somewhere just west of Leeds, not unlike the base tunnels under the Alps between Austria and Switzerland to Italy.  Also preferably with some looping capacity in the middle to allow use by slower freights, maybe lorry trains on the Continental/ Channel Tunnel model.

 

Or am I missing some other option?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

John.

That’s the idea, straight (or very relaxed curves) = fast speeds.

 

id imagine the existing routes will get the freight, it’s not that far and you destroy HS capacity by mixing in long slow freight.

 

the other advantage with a long tunnel is less objections from the populations of the narrow, steep valleys through which the existing tracks run.

 

id imagine the tunnel length of HS3 will be a lot less than that on HS2

[corneliuslundie]

But that would put the average cost per  mile up and then it would be thrown out as more expensive than previous routes!!! Eg the GWML.

Or am i being cynical?

Jonathan

[Mike Storey]

The preferred route is via Bradford, which suggests some pretty serious tunnelling.

 

See attached, updated following TfN's submission in February.

 

https://transportforthenorth.com/northern-powerhouse-rail/

 

This also confirms that major dependency on HS2b for completing links to the NE, to Sheffield, and for another piece of HS railway to link with Liverpool. This suggests the £39 billion estimate would rise, by a lot, if HS2 is cancelled.

 

Just seen a reference in NCE stating that the NR plans for the Trans-Pennine Upgrade are totally separate, shorter term works from Northern Power House Rail, which answers my earlier question.

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

The preferred route is via Bradford, which suggests some pretty serious tunnelling.

 

See attached, updated following TfN's submission in February.

 

https://transportforthenorth.com/northern-powerhouse-rail/

 

This also confirms that major dependency on HS2b for completing links to the NE, to Sheffield, and for another piece of HS railway to link with Liverpool. This suggests the £39 billion estimate would rise, by a lot, if HS2 is cancelled.

 

Just seen a reference in NCE stating that the NR plans for the Trans-Pennine Upgrade are totally separate, shorter term works from Northern Power House Rail, which answers my earlier question.

Thanks for this, which is very informative.

 

As you say, a lot of tunneling indeed for a line which probably won't be that far away from the path of the M62 as it tops the hills. So based on the time taken for Crossrail and the Channel Tunnel presumably not less than ten years from the day you start.

 

John.

Edited July 30, 2019 by John Tomlinson
typo

[4630]

13 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

The preferred route is via Bradford, which suggests some pretty serious tunnelling.

 

See attached, updated following TfN's submission in February.

 

https://transportforthenorth.com/northern-powerhouse-rail/

 

 

 

12 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

 

As you say, a lot of tunneling indeed for a line which probably won't be that far away from the path of the M62 as it tops the hills. 

 

 

The City Of Bradford Metropolitan District Council has been lobbying hard since George Osborne first floated the idea of Northern Powerhouse Rail.  My feeling is that any HS3 station for Bradford is more likely to be sited around the M62/M606 junction area.

 

It certainly will be interesting to see the more detailed planned route once it becomes available in the public domain.  

 

Taking into account the topography and population distribution and density in this part of West Yorkshire, I’d agree that a route not too far from the path of the M62 is the most likely.  With a significant portion of it in tunnel and probably viaduct too where the Pennines drops down to Greater Manchester at Milnrow.

 

Personally, as 4630 Towers is practically within a stones throw of the M62 and perhaps the agreed route for HS3, I’d appreciate an offer for compulsory purchase now.  It could help with my retirement planning. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by 4630

[ess1uk]

Has the HS2 review affected this?

 

[Pandora]

Cost of a mile underground =  Cost of 10 miles above ground

[peanuts]

some timeback whilst doing some research for a school project i read of a plan to double a  exstend the Delph branch to Denshaw then tunnel under the moors for four miles to emerge at Rishworth before descending down the valley to Halifax and beyond .some survey work had been carried out but the whole project was deemed unecanomical .the section east of rushworth would parralel the M62 

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, peanuts said:

some timeback whilst doing some research for a school project i read of a plan to double a  exstend the Delph branch to Denshaw then tunnel under the moors for four miles to emerge at Rishworth before descending down the valley to Halifax and beyond .some survey work had been carried out but the whole project was deemed unecanomical .the section east of rushworth would parralel the M62 

I think that was the original L &Y plan. If I remember correctly the Rishworth branch was built as double track with generous curves for that reason.

 

Jamie

[peanuts]

19 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I think that was the original L &Y plan. If I remember correctly the Rishworth branch was built as double track with generous curves for that reason.

 

Jamie

so glad someone else has heard of it was beginning to think i had imagined it 

[Covkid]

On 19/09/2019 at 17:09, Pandora said:

Cost of a mile underground =  Cost of 10 miles above ground

I rather thought tunnelling is expensive but I was surprised to see a mention of a 23 mile tunnel being bored in the Boulby area to ship minerals to Teesport. This was in relation to the Sirius Mines news about financial problems.  Not sure what dimensions the tunnel is to, and what infrastructure it will provide, but is that one of the longest, if not the longest UK tunnel ? 

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

I rather thought tunnelling is expensive but I was surprised to see a mention of a 23 mile tunnel being bored in the Boulby area to ship minerals to Teesport. This was in relation to the Sirius Mines news about financial problems.  Not sure what dimensions the tunnel is to, and what infrastructure it will provide, but is that one of the longest, if not the longest UK tunnel ? 

23 miles would have been considerably shorter I believe than the combined lengths of existing tunnels at Boulby (Wikipedia refers to 620 - yes, SIX HUNDRED AND TWENTY MILES!).  Remember that the proposed tunnel may not actually be that large (bore) if it's only got to fit a conveyor belt with space for maintenance staff to walk alongside.  Also, unlike HS2, a substantial part of the tunnel would be through the potash seam, so the spoil is actually their product and has value, rather than waste that has to be disposed of.

[ess1uk]

Bradford not happy today 

[Flittersnoop]

Look at the government's map: how much more underwhelming could a "Powerhouse" be before it's just a shed with a torch in it?

 

What happens at Huddersfield to justify ending the core route there?!

 

Hopeless - I suspect the government has weighed up the electoral cost of this half-baked scheme and decided it's not bothered about losing support in Yorkshire.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

 

What happens at Huddersfield to justify ending the core route there?!

 

Standedge is what happens, big old set of four tunnels through the Pennines.

 

Given there are two spare bores, they may simply be able to use the existing tunnels to get the line through and onto a realigned but back to four track route through to Leeds.

 

It's not actually a bad thing, boring through soil/chalk down south is one thing, boring through rock in the Pennines is quite different.

[Flittersnoop]

13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Standedge is what happens, big old set of four tunnels through the Pennines.

 

Given there are two spare bores, they may simply be able to use the existing tunnels to get the line through and onto a realigned but back to four track route through to Leeds.

 

It's not actually a bad thing, boring through soil/chalk down south is one thing, boring through rock in the Pennines is quite different.

You haven't looked at the map - the "core network" goes through Standedge, reaches Huddersfield and then stops - it doesn't split into routes to Leeds and Bradford, it just gets to Huddersfield and decides to jog through Dewsbury and Batley much as it does at present.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

You haven't looked at the map - the "core network" goes through Standedge, reaches Huddersfield and then stops - it doesn't split into routes to Leeds and Bradford, it just gets to Huddersfield and decides to jog through Dewsbury and Batley much as it does at present.

Four Tracking to Leeds

 

The new alignment stops short of Huddersfield at Standedge

Edited November 18, 2021 by woodenhead

[APOLLO]

Huddersfield to Leeds has history.

 

The LNWR upgraded the line to 4 tracks past Heaton Lodge Jcn, Mirfield etc then 2 tracks to Batley, Morley Tunnel etc. They effectively four tracked it by building the Leeds New Line through Gildersome tunnel. This was closed (in the 60's ?).

 

This is an interesting site re the Leeds New Line

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1423096621218441/

 

Googling for a map of the new line I have just come across this interesting gem !! Well worth a look - from 2015 though.

 

http://www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/York-pic.png

 

Brit15

 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Flittersnoop said:

Look at the government's map: how much more underwhelming could a "Powerhouse" be before it's just a shed with a torch in it?

 

What happens at Huddersfield to justify ending the core route there?!

 

Hopeless - I suspect the government has weighed up the electoral cost of this half-baked scheme and decided it's not bothered about losing support in Yorkshire.

Can't disagree with your last statement.

P

[jamie92208]

A big problem on the existing route is a series of quite severe speed restrictions.  From memory, working east to west they are,

 

A) the entrance to Morley tunnel,

B) the line through Batley,

C) the eastern entrance to Standedge  tunnel.

Plus a lot of the current higher speeds between Huddersfield and Standedge  are only possible because the current line uses all the former 4 track alignment to give better speeds. It wanders around like a dogs hind leg

There may well be some more.

 

The High Line out of Leeds had a 10mph rextriction till it got past Domestic Street and to get to to it from the station blocked all routes west apart from the Harrogate lines. TPE wouldn't be as bad as London trai s but would still block workings from tne Holbeck direction. 

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the original HS2 station site gets built after a decent study. The land is all safeguarded.

 

Jamie

[woodenhead]

When they eased out the curves east of Standedge by reducing the tracks it was a cost based decision - didn't need all four tracks and it was a cheap method to raise speeds.

 

Here now they have an opportunity perhaps to do some engineering to ease out the curves, whether that is what they have in mind I don't know.

 

No mention of the 'new' route in any blurb so they are not looking to reinstate (yet).

[Phatbob]

[APOLLO]

"Where do I stick this ?" asks Boris on day one of his new job !!!

 

 

Brit15

[The Stationmaster]

The biggest hole in all of this appears to me to be leaving Manchester - Leeds to the last place in the phasing, i.e. it's at least 20 years away before work starts.  If 'they' mean what they say about a 'northern powerhouse' then surely that is the first place the shovels and dynamite should be doing their stuff?

 

Overall there is a lot of sensible pragmatism in what is proposed and some of it actually addresses the considerable problem of the West Midlands - Sheffield - Yorkshire axis where speeds are low and long distance trains tend to be overcrowded.  Plus spreading the jam of electrification to other routes makes a lot of sense although quite what Bristolians, Devonians, Cornubians, and Southwalians think about the claim that 75% in total of trunk routes will be electrified sorry 'decarbonised' remains to be seen. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Flittersnoop]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Four Tracking to Leeds

 

The new alignment stops short of Huddersfield at Standedge

No! The report clearly states that the new alignment ends at the eastern end of the Standedge Tunnels., and one of the first things would be reinstating a third line from Huddersfield up to Marsden to allow for freight train paths. There is no mention of four-tracking the section from Hudderfield to Leeds, which would be very difficult as the route was never more than two tracks.