Northern Powerhouse? Unlikely if this is true.

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 Sounds like Boris & his merry gang !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

THIS is no laughing matter!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-22278037

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html

https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/03/1088612

 

The Chinese regime is a deeply thoroughly unpleasant one and should have gone the way of the rest of them did in 1989.

 

It is to be deeply regretted the Communist Party massacred large numbers of their own people in Titanian Square rather turn the other check and recognise their citizens have a right to determine the sort of Government they want every 5 years or so.

 

 

 

Note: A distinction needs to be made between an individual of Chinese ethnicity and the Government of China. The reprehensible behaviour of the latter should not be confused with attitudes to the former. It is perfectly possible to be well disposed to a Chinese individual (plus their culture) but also very hostile to the Government of their country.

[montyburns56]

The thing about the curves in Warrington is that presumably most trains will be stopping at the new station there so it doesn't really matter if the line speed isn't 100 mph etc.

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

The thing about the curves in Warrington is that presumably most trains will be stopping at the new station there so it doesn't really matter if the line speed isn't 100 mph etc.

 

I think the current curves will limit speeds to much less than that.

 

It should also be noted that even if every train stops only having a single platform in each direction constrains train throughput. Consider the likes of the proposed Old Oak (6 platforms) or even London Bridge which has 4 platforms feeding the double track to / from Charing Cross.

 

It would therefore be a far more sensible proposition for a big rebuild to straighten the alignment in the area and and build the Warrington station with either platform loops or more than just 2 platforms.

[phil-b259]

28 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Just one thing.

 

When HS2 was announced a few years ago, together with the Manchester & Leeds legs detailed plans were immediately published online. Very detailed indeed.

 

There is NOTHING AT ALL in this respect with the new announcement, other than a small overall general route map. No detail whatsoever, and I fear there won't be any detailed plans for a long time yet, and then they will be watered down, again and again. And what will be actually built after that will be different again, and at least 15 - 20 odd years away.

 

The subject of Warrington Bank Quay & the route is a joke, a lie, pie in the sky. It will NEVER happen, not a cat in hells chance. Perhaps Crewe to Manchester & the Golborne spur will get built (more or less as originally planned), and that will be it on the west side of the Pennines.

 

Brit15

 

 

Every idea in human history started life as a vague one! - and there is a lot to like about the principle of re-using the Bank Quay route in some form.

 

I suspect that the announcement as rushed - The Government was under pressure to make a decision over the Eastern leg of HS2 and having decided to ditch 2/3rds of it needed something else to present to voters. Existing schemes were dusted off and new ones (like this idea of using the Bank Quay route to get to Liverpool) added.

 

However even a rushed announcement in itself does NOT AUTOMATICALLY mean the concept itself is a poor one, nor that it cannot be developed into a deliverable scheme. Naturally this will take time - and for people with a massive chip on their shoulder about Governments 'betraying the north' it will be a bitter pill to swallow having to wait for more clarity. Still, many of those same folk were the ones who put Boris and co into power - you reap what you sow and all that.

 

Unfortunately without the ability to travel through time, dealing with the world as you find it is a pre-requite of being a human. So rather than griping about what hasn't or never happened lets look on the positive side and see the proposal for what it is - a scheme that is not only deliverable but has the potential to be of great use by travellers in the North West

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by phil-b259

[jamie92208]

Over on the HS2 thread a document from October 2020 has been posted which shows a proposed junction towards Leeds. Trains would reverse at Piccadilly, where the station is on the nort side, then out out towards Ardwick.

 

Jamie

[APOLLO]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I suspect that the announcement as rushed - The Government was under pressure to make a decision over the Eastern leg of HS2 and having decided to ditch 2/3rds of it needed something else to present to voters. Existing schemes were dusted off and new ones (like this idea of using the Bank Quay route to get to Liverpool) added.

 

My thoughts entirely. A knee jerk political announcement to appease the masses. Ill thought out, no detail of any description just a line on a map of the UK.

 

Typical Boris bluff and bluster.

 

When detailed plans are available I'll sit up and listen with interest. Going to be a long, long wait, and I predict disappointment yet again for many.

 

Brit15

 

 

[phil-b259]

40 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

My thoughts entirely. A knee jerk political announcement to appease the masses. Ill thought out, no detail of any description just a line on a map of the UK.

 

Typical Boris bluff and bluster.

 

When detailed plans are available I'll sit up and listen with interest. Going to be a long, long wait, and I predict disappointment yet again for many.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

I think its important to separate the political spin / bull**** from the actual proposal being flouted.

 

As you say Boris and co (like most politicians) are very good at 'bluff and buster' and yes, the reason it got lumped in with everything else was to soften the blow of HS2 / NPR being significantly trimmed. However they are not the ones who thought of the proposal (you don't seriously expect any of the senior minister to remotely knowledgeable about Warrington's rail network) nor are the ones charged with developing it into a workable scheme.

 

As a concept, the upgraded / rebuilt / extended / etc bank Quay line has the potential to work quite well as a connection to HS2 and Manchester, there is certainly the engineering scope to solve many of the potential problems relatively easily so lets wait and see what the professionals (i.e. the engineering team) come up with shall we before being quite so dismissive.

[whart57]

9 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I think its important to separate the political spin / bull**** from the actual proposal being flouted.

 

 

It's also important to separate out what is the remit of the Transport ministry and what should be the responsibility of the regional transport body. However it would appear that Schapps is closing that down

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I think its important to separate the political spin / bull**** from the actual proposal being flouted.

 

As you say Boris and co (like most politicians) are very good at 'bluff and buster' and yes, the reason it got lumped in with everything else was to soften the blow of HS2 / NPR being significantly trimmed. However they are not the ones who thought of the proposal (you don't seriously expect any of the senior minister to remotely knowledgeable about Warrington's rail network) nor are the ones charged with developing it into a workable scheme.

 

As a concept, the upgraded / rebuilt / extended / etc bank Quay line has the potential to work quite well as a connection to HS2 and Manchester, there is certainly the engineering scope to solve many of the potential problems relatively easily so lets wait and see what the professionals (i.e. the engineering team) come up with shall we before being quite so dismissive.

 

Fair comment. I await the plans with expectation.

 

Brit15

[John Tomlinson]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

THIS is no laughing matter!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-22278037

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html

https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/03/1088612

 

The Chinese regime is a deeply thoroughly unpleasant one and should have gone the way of the rest of them did in 1989.

 

It is to be deeply regretted the Communist Party massacred large numbers of their own people in Titanian Square rather turn the other check and recognise their citizens have a right to determine the sort of Government they want every 5 years or so.

 

 

 

Note: A distinction needs to be made between an individual of Chinese ethnicity and the Government of China. The reprehensible behaviour of the latter should not be confused with attitudes to the former. It is perfectly possible to be well disposed to a Chinese individual (plus their culture) but also very hostile to the Government of their country.

 

No it isn't Phil, quite right too.

 

China probably is the number one threat to Western values (defined as you wish) that there is right now, and massively overlooked are their very successful efforts to colonise in one form or another many parts of the less developed world.

 

The real irony is that we, the developed Western democracies, are in no small part responsible, by participating in the consumption of their exports in the 90's and noughties, so enabling a textbook example of export lead growth. We have created a monster, and have been remarkably slow in recognising the fact.

 

It beggars belief that we are still not completely clear in ensuring that their corporations are allowed nowhere near any capital project that could be deemed strategically or technologicly significant.

 

John.

[billbedford]

The trouble with talking about places like China is that you can never tell what is Chinese propaganda and what is Western propaganda. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by billbedford
typo

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, billbedford said:

The trouble with talking about places like China is that you can never tell what is Chinese propaganda wand what is Western propaganda. 

I think we can be pretty sure that the Chinese government have a pretty high grasp on controlling it's people through manipulation and coercion.

 

And in terms of other countries, it's infrastructure development programmes are a method to exert control and take large chunks of foreign soil through provision of loans that countries simply cannot afford and forfeit property when loans fall behind.

 

Was the West conned by the Chinese Government, possibly or possibly the Chinese Communist Governement itself was at some point hijacked by a few rich powerful individuals and moulded it into what exists now, rather like another notionally Communist regime.  The Chinese people did not vote for the oppression they now find themselves under, they sleepwalked into it as much as the West did.

[96701]

A couple of things spring to mind:

 

• Immense disruption whilst existing lines are upgraded - remember the Swindon to Kemble was doubled to try and facilitate electrification into Wales. Are the any diversion routes from "East of Standage" to Leeds?
• New railway to "East of Standege", then poddle along existing line improves nothing (unless "East of Standege" is going to become a destination of choice; maybe they ought to move Bradford there, they might as well. 

[APOLLO]

“Let China Sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world” so states a quote attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte. He was correct about this.

 

Whatever the politics of China, they make a decision and get on with it PDQ. They don't faff around like we do.

 

I'll say this. We, the west, need to wean off Chinese goods quickly. We are far too dependent on them. A very complex subject and I'll leave it there. China will meet it's Waterloo (!!!!) soon, energy, food, fresh water, 1.4 billion mouths to feed, all wanting the west's lifestyle. 

 

China may implode soon, and could take us all with it if we are not careful.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

Just now, APOLLO said:

“Let China Sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world” so states a quote attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte. He was correct about this.

 

Whatever the politics of China, they make a decision and get on with it PDQ. They don't faff around like we do.

 

I'll say this. We, the west, need to wean off Chinese goods quickly. We are far too dependent on them. A very complex subject and I'll leave it there. China will meet it's Waterloo (!!!!) soon, energy, food, fresh water, 1.4 billion mouths to feed, all wanting the west's lifestyle. 

 

China may implode soon, and could take us all with it if we are not careful.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

And we ought to be careful of bears with gas pipes too.

[billbedford]

That bit's easy, we just need to face down the greenies and start fracking...

Edited November 19, 2021 by billbedford

[Northmoor]

11 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

“Let China Sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world” so states a quote attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte. He was correct about this.

 

Whatever the politics of China, they make a decision and get on with it PDQ. They don't faff around like we do.

 

I'll say this. We, the west, need to wean off Chinese goods quickly. We are far too dependent on them. A very complex subject and I'll leave it there. China will meet it's Waterloo (!!!!) soon, energy, food, fresh water, 1.4 billion mouths to feed, all wanting the west's lifestyle. 

 

China may implode soon, and could take us all with it if we are not careful.

 

China has bought up much of Africa and will need to squeeze their debtors for the rest of the century, because unfortunately, China's population is ageing exceptionally quickly and they soon won't have people of working age to support all those over working age.  Their improved health care means the growing middle classes are living considerably longer while thanks to the one child policy*, they have nowhere near enough young people (and for generations, girls were often unwanted so the gender mix is nowhere near 50:50.  The demographic timebomb that is starting to hit Europe is a mere grenade compared to the 1000lb bunker buster that is hitting China.

 

But never mind China; this century belongs to India and to some extent the rest of the sub-continent, so including Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.  Collectively their populations outnumber China, they have a much younger and well educated population; India alone produces more STEM graduates per annum than we produce graduates in total and their second language is almost invariably English. This means they can communicate and do business with approaching half the people on Earth.

 

*This was abolished about 25 years too late, but in their political system, reversing a policy meant admitting it was even remotely possible that those in power could make a mistake.

[black and decker boy]

Aside from all of the things mentioned, I think the biggest single threat to world peace & harmony in the second half of this century is climate change.

 

if land mass becomes threatened by sea level rises and food production  is threatened by drought / flooding / winters then there are likely to be dire consequences and pressure to acquire replacement land & food sources.

 

not that this has much to do with HS2 2b or NPR other than climate change will be a risk to our victorian infrastructure (and our road infrastructure)

[APOLLO]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

And we ought to be careful of bears with gas pipes too.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

17 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Aside from all of the things mentioned, I think the biggest single threat to world peace & harmony in the second half of this century is climate change.

 

if land mass becomes threatened by sea level rises and food production  is threatened by drought / flooding / winters then there are likely to be dire consequences and pressure to acquire replacement land & food sources.

 

not that this has much to do with HS2 2b or NPR other than climate change will be a risk to our victorian infrastructure (and our road infrastructure)

 

So we plan a HS route at the side of the tidal River Mersey through Warrington  where known high spring tide flooding occurs (been involved with this at that location a few times over the years). The existing route is carried high over the Mersey on the Runcorn Widnes bridge.

 

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/yoursay/letters/19061764.letter-surprise-get-flooding-floodplains-gone/

 

WITH the recent floods at Sankey Bridges, could it be down to the fact that flood plains have gone.

There was one at the point where Sankey Brook enters the Mersey at Gatewarth Farm, there was one lower down just south of the rail line, there was also one near Buttermilk Bridge which has now been filled in in for the construction of Sankey Way.

Further up the river was dredged from Walton Lock to Howley and Athertons Quay.

The arm from the ship canal to the river has now been silted up as there now seems to be no holding points for river water.

Could this be why we now have floods in parts of the town that never flooded in the 50s and 60s?

 

Brit15

[whart57]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

That bit's easy, we just need to face down the greenies and start fracking...

 

You haven't noticed then that the fracking companies are looking at their financial prospects and deciding the game isn't worth the candle. Like so much recently, government support for fracking was for petty political reasons - like your "face down the greenies" - and not on cold analysis. Government friendly media dutifully reported the press releases that claimed we were floating on gas, what they didn't report was that it wasn't economically recoverable unless gas prices went a lot higher than they are now.

 

If we want gas for homes, or to power vehicles, then that gas is hydrogen. Green hydrogen produced when renewable electricity generation is outstripping demand, not blue hydrogen produced from fossil fuels with a non-existent carbon capture bit put on to make the press release look better.

 

Those greenies understand the issues a lot better than you do.

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 hours ago, Northmoor said:

China has bought up much of Africa and will need to squeeze their debtors for the rest of the century, because unfortunately, China's population is ageing exceptionally quickly and they soon won't have people of working age to support all those over working age.  Their improved health care means the growing middle classes are living considerably longer while thanks to the one child policy*, they have nowhere near enough young people (and for generations, girls were often unwanted so the gender mix is nowhere near 50:50.  The demographic timebomb that is starting to hit Europe is a mere grenade compared to the 1000lb bunker buster that is hitting China.

 

But never mind China; this century belongs to India and to some extent the rest of the sub-continent, so including Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.  Collectively their populations outnumber China, they have a much younger and well educated population; India alone produces more STEM graduates per annum than we produce graduates in total and their second language is almost invariably English. This means they can communicate and do business with approaching half the people on Earth.

 

*This was abolished about 25 years too late, but in their political system, reversing a policy meant admitting it was even remotely possible that those in power could make a mistake.

 

The only one child policy was so obviously wrong that one really does wonder how the politicos thought it a good idea.

 

Not only do they have an imminent problem of not enough workers to support the elderly population, but many of these children have been spoiled by newly-wealthy parents. I doubt if they will have the same acumen and work ethic as previous generations.

[APOLLO]

47 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

You haven't noticed then that the fracking companies are looking at their financial prospects and deciding the game isn't worth the candle. Like so much recently, government support for fracking was for petty political reasons - like your "face down the greenies" - and not on cold analysis. Government friendly media dutifully reported the press releases that claimed we were floating on gas, what they didn't report was that it wasn't economically recoverable unless gas prices went a lot higher than they are now.

 

If we want gas for homes, or to power vehicles, then that gas is hydrogen. Green hydrogen produced when renewable electricity generation is outstripping demand, not blue hydrogen produced from fossil fuels with a non-existent carbon capture bit put on to make the press release look better.

 

Those greenies understand the issues a lot better than you do.

 

Pity  those Greenies are not gas engineers understanding the vast scale of the problem replacing natural gas..

 

On paper, lots of things are possible (even the low level Warrington line). Its a question of scale, cost etc. Boris has pared back HS2 due to cost. Same with energy. Hydrogen has its uses and advantages, but also comes at cost. Can we afford it ?

 

Technology though advances very rapidly these days.

 

We will see.

 

Brit15

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

37 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I doubt if they will have the same acumen and work ethic as previous generations.

 

I think you'll find that China has ways of persuading its population to work hard.

 

And their education system is developing and expanding rapidly, especially in high-end HE.  I've seen it first hand.

[whart57]

18 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Pity  those Greenies are not gas engineers understanding the vast scale of the problem replacing natural gas..

 

They understand it better than you think.

 

Those of us of a certain age will remember that we went through a complete changeover from town gas to natural gas in the late sixties and early seventies. We would need a similar project but if we did it once we can do it again

 

We should also remember that coal gas, the stuff we burned fifty odd years ago was 50% hydrogen so if we managed to keep it in the pipes with 1950s technology and materials we should certainly be able to now.

 

The big issue of course is that to deliver natural gas we have an infrastructure of high pressure pipelines. That is where the difference between hydrogen and methane would be strongly felt. But ...... we only have that infrastructure because the gas is under the North Sea and we aren't. Back in the day of coal gas gas was generated locally. As railway modellers we should know that as local gas works - and the traffic they generate - have been on railway layouts forever. Buckingham had one. Generating green hydrogen requires water and electricity, the grids to deliver those are already there. The gas pressure on local distribution grids is a lot lower than on the main grid (I used to work with the grid engineers maintaining their telemetry many years ago).

 

It is a problem of vast scale, but it is also feasible. More feasible than retro-fitting heat pumps in houses built in the 19th and 20th centuries.