Northern Powerhouse? Unlikely if this is true.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

 

You haven't noticed then that the fracking companies are looking at their financial prospects and deciding the game isn't worth the candle. Like so much recently, government support for fracking was for petty political reasons - like your "face down the greenies" - and not on cold analysis. Government friendly media dutifully reported the press releases that claimed we were floating on gas, what they didn't report was that it wasn't economically recoverable unless gas prices went a lot higher than they are now.

Uh oh, let's hope Mr Putin's meddling doesn't unlease a new PR campaign.

 

Come and see the new ground level illuminations at Frackpool, rainy night, no problem, just set your water taps alight and have an illuminations party in your kitchen.

[Northmoor]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Uh oh, let's hope Mr Putin's meddling doesn't unlease a new PR campaign.

 

Come and see the new ground level illuminations at Frackpool, rainy night, no problem, just set your water taps alight and have an illuminations party in your kitchen.

To be fair, much of those sort of scare stories are based on USA experience from 20 years ago , where there was little or no regulation ("You want Regulation? What are you, some sorta Communist?") or agreed engineering standards for the process.  I remember hearing a oil industry engineer commenting about anti-fracking protests in the UK, saying that's he'd been fracking in the UK since the 1960s and had long ago lost count of the number of underground "shots" he'd fired.  No-one had ever complained about noise, vibration or water pollution.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Northmoor said:

To be fair, much of those sort of scare stories are based on USA experience from 20 years ago , where there was little or no regulation ("You want Regulation? What are you, some sorta Communist?") or agreed engineering standards for the process.  I remember hearing a oil industry engineer commenting about anti-fracking protests in the UK, saying that's he'd been fracking in the UK since the 1960s and had long ago lost count of the number of underground "shots" he'd fired.  No-one had ever complained about noise, vibration or water pollution.

But the people of Blackpool did suffer a number of tremours from it.

 

Personally, if we are that desperate for energy that we need to frack then something is really wrong, there are plenty of other polluting things we can do to make energy without literally destroying the land under us.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

 

They understand it better than you think.

 

Those of us of a certain age will remember that we went through a complete changeover from town gas to natural gas in the late sixties and early seventies. We would need a similar project but if we did it once we can do it again

 

We should also remember that coal gas, the stuff we burned fifty odd years ago was 50% hydrogen so if we managed to keep it in the pipes with 1950s technology and materials we should certainly be able to now.

 

The big issue of course is that to deliver natural gas we have an infrastructure of high pressure pipelines. That is where the difference between hydrogen and methane would be strongly felt. But ...... we only have that infrastructure because the gas is under the North Sea and we aren't. Back in the day of coal gas gas was generated locally. As railway modellers we should know that as local gas works - and the traffic they generate - have been on railway layouts forever. Buckingham had one. Generating green hydrogen requires water and electricity, the grids to deliver those are already there. The gas pressure on local distribution grids is a lot lower than on the main grid (I used to work with the grid engineers maintaining their telemetry many years ago).

 

It is a problem of vast scale, but it is also feasible. More feasible than retro-fitting heat pumps in houses built in the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

Buckingham had three gasworks models if I remember correctly.

 

I started an engineering apprenticeship with The North Western Gas Board in 1969, retired in 2009, 40 years on the distribution side, 20 of those at Warrington. I worked on appliance conversion in Wigan (1970) and mains conversion in Warrington (1974) - then planning & replacing gas mains in all of South Lancs area. Conversion is a mammoth undertaking, expensive also. There is just not the numbers of skilled people in the industry to do this again. 75,000 worked in the industry back then.

 

The existing network will no doubt carry hydrogen, but appliances would need converting, and converting each town sector by sector, both mains and appliances - one sector per week, Warrington alone had about 15 sectors. well, been there done that - it won't happen again (££££££££££££££).

 

Technical note added - Each sectors mains were converted by introducing the new gas & flaring off the old gas at many locations within the sector, then an army of fitters would start appliance conversion. Lots of work / planning was done beforehand. A sectors size was set at the number of consumers / appliances, injection points etc. Military type planning was required. It mostly went well, but when it didn't - well I never got home for several days.

 

This is the real time flow of Natural Gas into the UK network, scroll down to the bar graphs. 

 

https://mip-prd-web.azurewebsites.net/InstantaneousView/Index

 

Predicted daily demand (Demand Forecast) is currently just over 201 million cubic metres / day,

Tomorrow's prediction is 245 million cubic metres / day,

 

https://mip-prd-web.azurewebsites.net/

 

A very good % of which is generating electricity. I'll let someone else calculate how much Hydrogen that equates to, and how much "unwanted surplus green" electricity would needed to produce it.

 

That is the SCALE of the problem.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by APOLLO
typo

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

The existing network will no doubt carry hydrogen, but appliances would need converting, and converting each town sector by sector, both mains and appliances - one sector per week, Warrington alone had about 15 sectors. well, been there done that - it won't happen again (££££££££££££££).

 

I'd say it is more like most of the existing network will carry hydrogen.

 

They've been busy near me for a couple of months replacing the gas main and pipes to houses on a 1930s estate, whilst I doubt it is the original piping I'd wager if it needed replacing it certainly wasn't up to a standard for current natural gas let alone hydrogen.

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

 

 

It is a problem of vast scale, but it is also feasible. More feasible than retro-fitting heat pumps in houses built in the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

I think that should be clarified.

 

There is no difficulty about attaching an air-source heatpump to an old building. The issue is that ashp puts out the hot water at a lower temperature than a gas/oil/electric boiler. So you need much bigger radiator capacity or dig up all the floors to put in underfloor heating.

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that should be clarified.

 

There is no difficulty about attaching an air-source heatpump to an old building. The issue is that ashp puts out the hot water at a lower temperature than a gas/oil/electric boiler. So you need much bigger radiator capacity or dig up all the floors to put in underfloor heating.

 

Air source heat pumps need to be big to be effective at air temperatures below 7°C. Is there space if not originally planned for. Then there is the hot water issue you mention.

 

I don't trust this government enough to be sceptical that this heat pump pilot idea is anything but a bit of pre-COP26 PR material.

[whart57]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Buckingham had three gasworks models if I remember correctly.

 

I started an engineering apprenticeship with The North Western Gas Board in 1969, retired in 2009, 40 years on the distribution side, 20 of those at Warrington. I worked on appliance conversion in Wigan (1970) and mains conversion in Warrington (1974) - then planning & replacing gas mains in all of South Lancs area. Conversion is a mammoth undertaking, expensive also. There is just not the numbers of skilled people in the industry to do this again. 75,000 worked in the industry back then.

 

The existing network will no doubt carry hydrogen, but appliances would need converting, and converting each town sector by sector, both mains and appliances - one sector per week, Warrington alone had about 15 sectors. well, been there done that - it won't happen again (££££££££££££££).

 

Technical note added - Each sectors mains were converted by introducing the new gas & flaring off the old gas at many locations within the sector, then an army of fitters would start appliance conversion. Lots of work / planning was done beforehand. A sectors size was set at the number of consumers / appliances, injection points etc. Military type planning was required. It mostly went well, but when it didn't - well I never got home for several days.

 

This is the real time flow of Natural Gas into the UK network, scroll down to the bar graphs. 

 

https://mip-prd-web.azurewebsites.net/InstantaneousView/Index

 

Predicted daily demand (Demand Forecast) is currently just over 201 million cubic metres / day,

Tomorrow's prediction is 245 million cubic metres / day,

 

https://mip-prd-web.azurewebsites.net/

 

A very good % of which is generating electricity. I'll let someone else calculate how much Hydrogen that equates to, and how much "unwanted surplus green" electricity would needed to produce it.

 

That is the SCALE of the problem.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is certainly the scale of the problem, but keeping on burning gas is not an option. North Sea fields are running out, fracking is not the magic bullet the backers said it would be. Until someone demonstrates carbon capture that actually works then don't even think of that. Yes converting the gas network - and all appliances - to hydrogen would be a massive amount of work and expensive. However so is everything else and unlike some of the ideas being floated this particular approach uses technology we know works.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I'd say it is more like most of the existing network will carry hydrogen.

 

They've been busy near me for a couple of months replacing the gas main and pipes to houses on a 1930s estate, whilst I doubt it is the original piping I'd wager if it needed replacing it certainly wasn't up to a standard for current natural gas let alone hydrogen.

 

 All pipe will carry hydrogen, safety is THE issue.

 

I must have planned / supervised literally thousands of Km of gas mains both new and replacement over my 40 years.  Renewal was mostly cast iron, and quite a lot over 100 years old at the time of renewal. Cast iron mains (especially the smaller diameters) break easily (ground movement, frost heave, heavy traffic). Most, probably all (in the North West) has been replaced but if some small % remains I would not be surprised. Large Dia cast iron is a lot safer in this respect (far thicker wall), but all cast iron has joint leakage problems, addressed over the years by many techniques. Another material that we had problems with was Ductile Iron, introduced in the late 60's this material graphitised in certain ground conditions, basically crumbling away in small areas. Most if not all Ductile (at medium pressure) has been replaced also, certainly the high risk ones.

 

Every metallic gas main (known about !!) has a risk value calculated by a number of factors, property with cellars, distance from property, ground surface type (sealed / unsealed), building use / occupancy etc. High risk mains were the main target for renewal, especially streets of terraced houses. These SHOULD be all plastic by now, and plastic (PE) mains should be quite OK Hydrogen wise. Study re this is being undertaken right now.

 

https://www.dnv.com/oilgas/perspectives/heating-homes-with-hydrogen-proving-the-safety-case.html

 

Hydrogen is certainly not a no go, but I doubt full scale conversion will happen, perhaps inxsome localised areas. Hydrogen blending with natural gas (which will give a composition similar to town gas) also may happen. I read a smallish % of Hydrogen can be added without any conversion being required. I think this is the way we will go when Hydrogen production becomes economic.

 

Brit15

[whart57]

Town gas was 50% hydrogen, so the issues of hydrogen leakage existed sixty years ago.

 

Blending hydrogen with natural gas might be worth considering as a transition strategy

[black and decker boy]

I thought it had already been announced that hydrogen was to be added to mains gas, IIRC 10% in a year or two?

 

equally, I might have dreamy that up 

[ess1uk]

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/transport-for-the-north-demands-to-see-dfts-technical-work-underpinning-rail-cuts-30-11-2021/

 

[ess1uk]

https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2022/07/25/transformational-transpennine-investment-or-just-the-best-of-a-bad-lot-for-englands-north/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter week 2022-30

[Mallard60022]

Ref Gas; Yes I heard it on R4 yesterday that a small amount of Hydrogen will be added to the present Gas supply.

I can't remember if it is still OK for the present gas Boilers. 

 

Ref Rail development.

During the last few weeks hiatus in Westminster there has been a sneaky roll out of the GBR Plans and those plans are pretty grim folks. Not looking good at all from Mr Schapps and Co.

Worth looking into the murky depths of Westminster Papers.

P

 

[jjb1970]

On 20/11/2021 at 18:56, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

And their education system is developing and expanding rapidly, especially in high-end HE.  I've seen it first hand.

 

Very true, their education system is excellent. They're developing some impressive technical capabilities and have some world class research institutes. And their expertise in manufacturing is second to none.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Ref Gas; Yes I heard it on R4 yesterday that a small amount of Hydrogen will be added to the present Gas supply.

I can't remember if it is still OK for the present gas Boilers.

 

 

Yes, much in the same way as most car engines will work quite happily with a small amount of bio-ethanol added to the Petroleum (E10 fuel), so it is that most gas boilers will be happy being fed a 20% hydrogen 80% methane mix.

 

The problems get far grater when you approach 50-50 mix though, as with cars and bio-ethanol, the manufacturers of gas boilers are planning for the proportion of hydrogen versus methane to increase in future and effectively future proof their design.

 

IIRC a complete switch from methane to Hydrogen requires a completely new burner (if not boiler) - just as a car engine running purely on bio-ethanol requires some fairly fundamental changes.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

 

Ref Rail development.

During the last few weeks hiatus in Westminster there has been a sneaky roll out of the GBR Plans and those plans are pretty grim folks. Not looking good at all from Mr Schapps and Co.

Worth looking into the murky depths of Westminster Papers.

P

 

 

And what else did you expect!

 

The DfT are incompetent, the SOS more interested in party politics, Whitehall mandarins are power hungry and HM Treasury doesn't want to spend (preferring to try and find a way of delivering tax cuts for their political masters)

 

Roger Ford isn't impressed... https://ezezine.com/ezine/pdf/759-2021.06.17.03.03.archive.pdf

[31A]

5 hours ago, ess1uk said:

https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2022/07/25/transformational-transpennine-investment-or-just-the-best-of-a-bad-lot-for-englands-north/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter week 2022-30

 

Interesting article but unless I'm missing something I can't see how the map with it illustrates the Trans Pennine Upgrade!  Looks more like loading gauge enhancements for freight routes leading to ports.  Surely not an article written by a Southerner with little knowledge of Yorkshire geography?! 😀  And what is "Investment is on a racially different level" supposed to mean?

[jamie92208]

A very superficial article.   The Huddersfield Dewsbury scheme has been shown in detail for at least a year or more as it has gone through the consultation process.  All the plans have been in the public domain for some time. As pointed out above by 31A it has obviously either not been proof read or the author has no real idea about the area.

 

Jamie

[KingEdwardII]

On 20/11/2021 at 11:54, woodenhead said:

Blackpool did suffer a number of tremours from it.

Hmm, those tremors were so minor that they are smaller than the ones experienced in coal mining areas on a reasonably frequent basis.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 09/05/2019 at 21:50, locoholic said:

That is a level of investment that northern England can only dream of. The answer would seem to be to devolve powers from Westminster to a northern regional assembly. One thing's for sure - the current set-up is delivering nothing, nor does it look likely to in the future.

 

Or of course, the north of England might decide they want to become part of Scotland when the Scots get independence !

As far as many people who live in Surrey are concerned St Albans is just another town in the frozen north,

[Mike Storey]

23 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Interesting article but unless I'm missing something I can't see how the map with it illustrates the Trans Pennine Upgrade!  Looks more like loading gauge enhancements for freight routes leading to ports.  Surely not an article written by a Southerner with little knowledge of Yorkshire geography?! 😀  And what is "Investment is on a racially different level" supposed to mean?

 

Simon Walton, the author, was the Chair of the Campaign for Borders Rail, and lives in or near to, Edinburgh. His primary job is PR. He is also the leading light in Railfreight.com, which may explain his angle on Trans-Pennine.

 

I surmise that "racially" is a typo, on the voice-sensitive dic-sub systems that journos use these days, and should read "radically". Obvs, no-one thought to check it. Unless he meant it did not involve the Scots??

 

[Mike Storey]

But, on another point, isn't Northern Powerhouse dead as a concept?

 

There were a number of opportunities for the electorate to vote for Regional Government, certainly under Cameron, but they rejected it. A few Mayors were created, often in the face of opposition. I note Liverpool has just decided to get rid of theirs, despite a referendum. Apparently the successes of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands do not apply there. Transport for the North was meant to be the opportunity for all northern areas to get together and formulate a single policy, but the DfT, and, presumably, the Cabinet and Treasury, simply ignored it in the end. Perhaps that is why so many of the electorate voted instead for the concept of Levelling Up, where a few civil servants and MP's in Westminster decides what few millions you get, if any, rather than some local representatives. I just don't understand the voters, but perhaps I am completely thick.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

33 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

I just don't understand the voters, but perhaps I am completely thick.

 

Don't worry about it, nobody from the Home Counties understands them either. 

'appen it's their northern dialect ! 

[31A]

52 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Simon Walton, the author, was the Chair of the Campaign for Borders Rail, and lives in or near to, Edinburgh. His primary job is PR. He is also the leading light in Railfreight.com, which may explain his angle on Trans-Pennine.

 

But woolly, Southern poofter, knowing nothing about anywhere north of the Watford Gap, he is not!

 

I surmise that "racially" is a typo, on the voice-sensitive dic-sub systems that journos use these days, and should read "radically". Obvs, no-one thought to check it. Unless he meant it did not involve the Scots??

 

 

Thank you Mike; I was unaware of his background.   I did wonder whether "racially" was a typo but it occurs twice!  I surmised that the map may have been lifted from another article, which WAS about rail freight.