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Bachmann 2019 Speculation

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I wouldn't be surprised if Bachmann announce a 4-Cig based on the 4-TC they produced for Kernow..... Especially considering i've now bought all the bits to make one....

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Hi,

 

Some things I'd like:

 

4 CIG (in Blue-Grey).

3 Car version of previous 2H in Blue

3 Car version of Class 101 in Blue Grey.

3 Car version of Class 119 Gloucester Cross Country DMMU in Blue Grey before and after Reading Gatwick mods.

 

All to be available on some sort of reservation/credit scheme spread out over time so I can afford to buy enough before the production runs out (due to price rises to date and after Brexit/more Chinese industrial policy changes).

 

Some things that might happen:

4 CAP (as suggested) could be an easy win.

Car version of previous 2H (probably doesn't need low profile motor or more detail so mediumly easy win if Bachmann's new design office in Hong Kong can use the Kernow scan data?).

Bachmann announce train identification system to compete with Hornby (would be nice if they integrate it into their Railmaster 'programming language' and add decision making functions and variables).

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

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A Jinty more powerful than a SR D1/E1/L1 4-4-0?  No !!!!! 

I suspect you are comparing the theoretical tractive effort figure of the Jinty and the 4-4-0s.

 

Theoretical tractive effort is not a measure of power it's just an estimate of the initial force (in lb.) of the driving wheel rim on the rail on starting.

The 4-4-0s mentioned could produce 1000 hp which a Jinty certainly couldn't.

 

Off course a Jinty is more powerful than a SECR 4-4-0. They used to use them for station pilot work at large LMS stations pulling much longer trains than the SR had. I probably should have said 57XX which definitely were more powerful as they were 4Ps....

 

I've also been behind one on the SVR pulling nine Mark 1s. Many tender locomotive struggle with that load.

 

 

But all this is ignoring the fact what was originally pointed out, that there aren't any large SR locomotives left to do apart from the N15X and H15. Everything has been done.

 

 

 

Jason

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You can't really knock Bachmann: their attention to quality is by & large spot on. As a producer, it's their prerogative to release (or not) anything they wish to make. I'd guess they have underestimated the retained popularity of the 57xx-8750 pannier, which is after all, a very good model. E-bay prices remain good, with unscrupulous sellers trying it on with the Mainline model. That is itself, not a bad one either. If you look at the ratio of 8750 to 64xx, you'll see far more 8750 to 64, a bit like real life. It's a tough spot for Bachmann. The development costs can come close to wiping any potential profit they might make from the project. That then has a tendency to increase prices to cover costs. Here's where the problem starts. The increase drives it past the acceptable level of expectation of the product. A normal solution is to hang back, until the market can accept the inevitable price hike.

 

I like the prospect of the 94xx. But it's a rather pleasant conundrum for Bachmann. "Can we sell enough 94xx?" It's a little like mirroring real life, when the introduction of the real thing happened against the backdrop of a sea of existing 8750 panniers.

 

No, I won't knock Bachmann: There must be a pretty tough set of margins to work against. Time is, I feel, the only healer here, so we'll just have to wait. In the mean time, people will still convert the Lima model....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

I am not knocking B on the matter or quality, realism, or pricing; even with the increases of the last couple of years we have never had such good models so cheap!  But the long lead times, and a decade is much too long by any standards, are damaging the company's image and the idea of 'waiting for the market to bear the price' is flawed against the background of increasing labour costs in China; prices are going to rise further in the meantime, which defeats the object of the wait.  

 

There is a sense in which the model railway and similar markets disobey, or at least distort, the normal economic laws of supply and demand (for new items; things revert to supply and demand as soon as you consider the secondhand market).  We will pay over the 'normal' odds, whatever those are, for a model we want in the livery we want because it's that sort of hobby; it isn't like selling tomatoes or fridges.  We accept on entry that this is an expensive hobby, and live with it in a way that most 'normal' consumers, whatever those are, don't.  Most of us I suspect consciously or unconsciously budget a set amount, and as long as the item is within that ball park, we'll stump up the moolah!  For instance, at shows, I budget an amount for impulse buys, which is not normal consumer behaviour!

You can't really knock Bachmann: their attention to quality is by & large spot on. As a producer, it's their prerogative to release (or not) anything they wish to make. I'd guess they have underestimated the retained popularity of the 57xx-8750 pannier, which is after all, a very good model. E-bay prices remain good, with unscrupulous sellers trying it on with the Mainline model. That is itself, not a bad one either. If you look at the ratio of 8750 to 64xx, you'll see far more 8750 to 64, a bit like real life. It's a tough spot for Bachmann. The development costs can come close to wiping any potential profit they might make from the project. That then has a tendency to increase prices to cover costs. Here's where the problem starts. The increase drives it past the acceptable level of expectation of the product. A normal solution is to hang back, until the market can accept the inevitable price hike.

 

I like the prospect of the 94xx. But it's a rather pleasant conundrum for Bachmann. "Can we sell enough 94xx?" It's a little like mirroring real life, when the introduction of the real thing happened against the backdrop of a sea of existing 8750 panniers.

 

No, I won't knock Bachmann: There must be a pretty tough set of margins to work against. Time is, I feel, the only healer here, so we'll just have to wait. In the mean time, people will still convert the Lima model....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

I am not knocking B on the matter or quality, realism, or pricing; even with the increases of the last couple of years we have never had such good models so cheap!  But the long lead times, and a decade is much too long by any standards, are damaging the company's image and the idea of 'waiting for the market to bear the price' is flawed against the background of increasing labour costs in China; prices are going to rise further in the meantime, which defeats the object of the wait.  

 

There is a sense in which the model railway and similar markets disobey, or at least distort, the normal economic laws of supply and demand (for new items; things revert to supply and demand as soon as you consider the secondhand market).  We will pay over the 'normal' odds, whatever those are, for a model we want in the livery we want because it's that sort of hobby; it isn't like selling tomatoes or fridges.  We accept on entry that this is an expensive hobby, and live with it in a way that most 'normal' consumers, whatever those are, don't.  Most of us I suspect consciously or unconsciously budget a set amount, and as long as the item is within that ball park, we'll stump up the moolah!  For instance, at shows, I budget an amount for impulse buys, which is not normal consumer behaviour!

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I would prefer pukka non corridor coaches before a new B set, simply because the non corridors are more flexible for the modeller. Certainly my piece of BR(WR) in the West Midlands saw good numbers of non corridors whereas B sets were more the bucolic fayre of BLTs 

 

Preaching to the choir, Cov.  The problem from the manufacturer's pov is the different lengths, a result of the GW implementation of standard size compartments in various combinations, which mean each coach needs a different tooling.  

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I wouldn't be surprised if Bachmann announce a 4-Cig based on the 4-TC they produced for Kernow..... Especially considering i've now bought all the bits to make one....

A 4REP would actually make more sense as it has much more commonality with the 4TC plus the obvious reason...

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4 CAP - two of the pending 2 HAPs banged together.

 

Class 45 - 80's styles - before another manufacturer jumps in.

 

Class 09 - 

 

Bullied style EPB

 

….and for something special a Bulleid Double Decker 4-DD

 

Keith

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Is it wrong to hope that no new tooling is announced? Surely better to catch up on that front and get us all frothing about and buying reliveries until then?

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Is it wrong to hope that no new tooling is announced? Surely better to catch up on that front and get us all frothing about and buying reliveries until then?

TBH, I have been mentally adding four to the date on the Bachmann catalogue for several years so have become quite philosophical about all that. 

 

Stuff will arrive when it arrives and, for me, all that matters is that it was worth the wait, which it usually has been. 

 

Convention (and territory marking) requires the revelation of some future intentions, even if any suggested timescale needs to be taken with a substantial pinch of salt.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling

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How about the LBSCR E4 in Stroudley Improved Engine Green.  I for one would love one.

 

Craig.

Hadn't IEG been consigned to history long before the E4s were built?

 

John

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Is it wrong to hope that no new tooling is announced? Surely better to catch up on that front and get us all frothing about and buying reliveries until then?

 

Its not wrong - but at the same time manufacturers / retailers seek to use any 'new' item as a way to also promote other items they currently make. It doesn't matter whether you are selling cars, washing up liquid or model trains there is always a part of the market which although not wanting / being able to afford the 'new' item, may well be persuaded to purchase something else

 

As such there is no way Bachmann will turn round and say 'nothing new this year' - even if they do take the cautious approach.

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Hadn't IEG been consigned to history long before the E4s were built?

 

John

 

Nope - IEG survived its creator and wasn't replaced by Stroudly's immediate successor, RJ Billinton

 

According to http://www.semgonline.com/steam/e4class_01.html

 

Initially named and painted in Stroudley Goods Green, from loco Nº487 onwards* they were turned out named and painted in Stroudley's Improved Engine Green, a yellow colour, with some of the older, green, locos subsequently being re-painted yellow, until 1906 when Marsh repainted them in dark umber and removed their names.

 

* This loco was built in Jun 1899

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Off course a Jinty is more powerful than a SECR 4-4-0. They used to use them for station pilot work at large LMS stations pulling much longer trains than the SR had. I probably should have said 57XX which definitely were more powerful as they were 4Ps....

 

I've also been behind one on the SVR pulling nine Mark 1s. Many tender locomotive struggle with that load.

 

But all this is ignoring the fact what was originally pointed out, that there aren't any large SR locomotives left to do apart from the N15X and H15. Everything has been done.

 

Jason

 

Plenty of pics exist of E1 4-4-0s on SE boat trains of six and more Pullmans including 12-wheelers.

Like to see a Jinty tackle a duty like that.

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East Midlands Trains are Class 222 “Meridian’s” and subtly different from Class 220 and 221’s. The cab shape is different as well as the headlights. Also some of the windows are in different places on some of the cars and I believe the body profile is slightly different as well, so they would need a complete new tooling.

 

 

A big issue for anyone producing a 222 is that all the bodyside windows are different to a 220/221. The 222 actually has smaller sized windows compared to the panoramic windows used by Virgin. So unfortunately for some, and including the issues highlighted above, a 222 would require a complete new tooling. 

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I kind of agree with the sentiments about not wanting new tooling announced as it will mean quite a long wait and might prevent another manufacturer from doing so - though a SR U class and Standard 2MT tank/2-6-0 would make excellent Bachmann models based on their similar products.

 

I'd quite like to see some GWR black used. Perhaps on a 57xx if they make it back into the range - they seem to have been replaced by the 64xx completely.

Lined black, early crest LBSCR E4 with Billinton smokebox

J72 as Joem (though can't imagine that will be announced until the first batch have seen the light of day)

Another run of western region numbered Crimson/Cream Mk1s would be nice

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Plenty of pics exist of E1 4-4-0s on SE boat trains of six and more Pullmans including 12-wheelers.

Like to see a Jinty tackle a duty like that.

A class 3F loco like a Jinty will actually move a greater tonnage than any British 4-4-0 with the possible exception of a Schools.

 

On carriage pilot duties, they were used to shunt long trains of heavy modern corridor stock weighing up to twice as much as the loads cited in your example. What they won't do, and weren't designed to do, is cruise at 60-70mph for mile after mile. 

 

In the same way, a 400hp Class 08 can move as much as any Class 47 or even a Deltic, but only at 17mph. It's all a matter of gearing.

 

Not that such tank locos aren't capable of going rather faster than one might expect. After all, the wheels aren't much smaller than those on a 9F, and we all know what they could do if pushed.

 

A good few years ago, at a SVR Gala I attended, their Jinty was put on a train of at least seven coaches, replacing The Great Marquess which had been failed at short notice. There was initially much grumbling about this supposed "comedown", but it soon ceased once we got under way.

 

It's hopefully far too long ago for anyone to get into trouble over it, but the performance put up by that little loco and her crew was quite magnificent, and well in excess of anything permitted under the terms of a Light Railway Order. All the time lost in changing engines, and more, was recovered on the journey and, on arrival at Kidderminster, numerous passengers shook the hands of the footplatemen as they left the platform.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I cant guess what they will announce other than it will likely be mainly from post-2010 and pre-1980 stf....lol

 

looking forward to this years class 90 and class 117 + 121 + 2HAP.

 

however - just 1 of the following would make me happy....

class 101 2-car in regional railways

class 81

class 45 flush front

class 302, 303, 304, 309, 310

class 20's in BRT livery.

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A class 3F loco like a Jinty will actually move a greater tonnage than any British 4-4-0 with the possible exception of a Schools.

 

On carriage pilot duties, they were used to shunt long trains of heavy modern corridor stock weighing up to twice as much as the loads cited in your example. What they won't do, and weren't designed to do, is cruise at 60-70mph for mile after mile. 

 

In the same way, a 400hp Class 08 can move as much as any Class 47 or even a Deltic, but only at 17mph. It's all a matter of gearing.

 

Not that such tank locos aren't capable of going rather faster than one might expect. After all, the wheels aren't much smaller than those on a 9F, and we all know what they could do if pushed.

 

A good few years ago, at a SVR Gala I attended, their Jinty was put on a train of at least seven coaches, replacing The Great Marquess which had been failed at short notice. There was initially much grumbling about this supposed "comedown", but it soon ceased once we got under way.

 

It's hopefully far too long ago for anyone to get into trouble over it, but the performance put up by that little loco and her crew was quite magnificent, and well in excess of anything permitted under the terms of a Light Railway Order. All the time lost in changing engines, and more, was recovered on the journey and, on arrival at Kidderminster, numerous passengers shook the hands of the footplatemen as they left the platform.  

 

John

 

So thats why I had to help Mr Tranter fettle the axleboxes....

 

Phil

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Hi all,

 

I actually hope for not too much newness until funds recover to a level where I can freely spend on trains again. I’m looking forward to the Freightliner class 90 and 37703 in EW&S livery. I’ve wanted an EWS 37/7 since Rail Express first got them tooled by Bachmann so this was a great announcement. The 2HAP in NSE is also on my wanted list and the VEA’s.

 

I would like to see DRS liveried MK2’s and DBSO and Saltire livery on the 158. I’d be happy and skint if these happen.

 

Cheers

Mark

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Off course a Jinty is more powerful than a SECR 4-4-0. They used to use them for station pilot work at large LMS stations pulling much longer trains than the SR had. I probably should have said 57XX which definitely were more powerful as they were 4Ps....

 

I've also been behind one on the SVR pulling nine Mark 1s. Many tender locomotive struggle with that load.

 

 

But all this is ignoring the fact what was originally pointed out, that there aren't any large SR locomotives left to do apart from the N15X and H15. Everything has been done.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Hmm.  Not quite, and by the way 57xx/8750s were rated 3F by BR.  A Jinty, or a 57xx (there's probably not that much between them) can haul a full length passenger express train of 10 or more coaches from carriage sidings to a station, but looks very silly compared to even an Edwardian 4-4-0 like an L1 when that train's speed gets above 25mph; I agree the L1 is going to struggle to get to more than about 50, but it'll run, and haul, rings around an 0-6-0 with a smaller boiler and cylinders.  And it'll do it with much less damage to the track and it's own springs as well...

 

As for large(ish) Southern locomotives, some big pre-grouping tanks like the Rivers and the big Brighton tanks have not been done.  The Rivers are a bit niche in terms of period, though, withdrawn from service en bloc after the Sevenoaks derailment in 1927 to be rebuilt as mogul tender locos.

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Plenty of pics exist of E1 4-4-0s on SE boat trains of six and more Pullmans including 12-wheelers.

Like to see a Jinty tackle a duty like that.

 

Only because it couldn't manage the fuel. They could easily pull long passenger trains as they did on the North London Railway.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/albums/72157626659170058

 

I would like to see an E1 pull 14 Irish Mail or Royal Scot carriages out of Euston to the carriage sidings. Or bank a heavy freight train up Lickey Bank.

 

 

Just admit it, they are small.

 

 

 

Jason

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Hmm.  Not quite, and by the way 57xx/8750s were rated 3F by BR.  A Jinty, or a 57xx (there's probably not that much between them) can haul a full length passenger express train of 10 or more coaches from carriage sidings to a station, but looks very silly compared to even an Edwardian 4-4-0 like an L1 when that train's speed gets above 25mph; I agree the L1 is going to struggle to get to more than about 50, but it'll run, and haul, rings around an 0-6-0 with a smaller boiler and cylinders.  And it'll do it with much less damage to the track and it's own springs as well...

 

As for large(ish) Southern locomotives, some big pre-grouping tanks like the Rivers and the big Brighton tanks have not been done.  The Rivers are a bit niche in terms of period, though, withdrawn from service en bloc after the Sevenoaks derailment in 1927 to be rebuilt as mogul tender locos.

 

I'm pretty sure the 57XX BR power rating was changed when the route availability changed from Blue to Yellow. 4P 3F.

 

The L1s weren't even built until the late 1920s. Certainly not Edwardian. But they are still small. I think of a Black Five or Hall as being a medium sized locomotive. Small compared to a Duchess, but big compared to a 2P. Most people would think a 2P is small. The L1 is the SR equivalent of an LMS 2P.

 

But I did say power rather than speed. I can walk down to Speke and watch an 08 pull a huge train of containers which has just been brought in by a Class 66. It's powerful, but I'm not expecting it to deputise for a Pendolino to London.

 

BTW I'm not dumping on the SR 4-4-0s as I actually like them. They just aren't large in any way, shape or form.

 

 

 

Jason

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