RMweb Gold simon b Posted December 26, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 26, 2018 According to 'the engineers' the 3rd rail could take it but the train cabling and protection systems couldn't hence they accepted the proposal to do it with a split pick up system. (Incidentally the 73 wouldn't be drawing any traction current, solely there to provide a route for hotel power into half of the train. Was that the reason eps had the two class 73's on the books, as I always thought they were an odd choice as a rescue loco? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 26, 2018 Share Posted December 26, 2018 Our loco building industry really was a cottage industry by comparison. No wonder it hasn't survived. Have we even built 6000 diesels in the UK? Doubtful. I can only get to 5733! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 26, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 26, 2018 Even at the time I thought the various plans for North of London services were triumphs of optimism and hope over reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Do we have a capable electric loco the 92s have struggled on the Caley Sleeper so not sure how they would cope with the jumbo trains There's several companies out there who would be very happy to sell you a heavy freight electric... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted December 27, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 27, 2018 Doubtful. I can only get to 5733! A rough, quick and dirty tot up of BR diesels, using spreadsheets from wnxx, got me to 5627, excluding 73's and electric locos. How did you arrive at 5733? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted December 27, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 27, 2018 Plus of course there were hundreds, if not thousands, of shunters built for industrial use and for export, and mainline diesels built for export. Also there were several hundred small shunters built during WW2 for the MoD (I don't mean the LMS types, which I think are mostly accounted for in the data from wnxx). I reckon we could be knocking on 8-9000 over let's say 70 years in total. Still piffling by comparison with 6000 of just one type over 20 years. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 But we are but 1/53rd the size. That’s why things in USA cost in $ what we pay in £ (ie based on historic exchange rates, up to half price). They buy 53 times more of the same than we do. So in loco terms, that’s a batch of 120 or so. We have smashed that a good few times. We even did evolution: 47 to 56 to 58. Power units from EE becoming Paxman etc so lineage from 20s & 37s through to 56s & 58s. Sadly there it ended and we added to our cousins order books. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Is that factor of 53 the difference in rail networks or geographic size? Or is it something else entirely? Ultimately it doesn't matter too much, 6000 SD40s is 6000 SD40s. And then there's the tens of other types which were built in large numbers, such as the nearly 4300 GP9s, or even the 1300 Alco RS3s. Several of GEs designs comfortably exceed 2000 units delivered, too. It's just a ridiculously different scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Is that factor of 53 the difference in rail networks or geographic size? Or is it something else entirely? Ultimately it doesn't matter too much, 6000 SD40s is 6000 SD40s. And then there's the tens of other types which were built in large numbers, such as the nearly 4300 GP9s, or even the 1300 Alco RS3s. Several of GEs designs comfortably exceed 2000 units delivered, too. It's just a ridiculously different scale. I was angling that we are similar to a single US state. However, population wise we are more densely populated at 1/5th of our cousins but geographic size, we are 1/40th of the USA. As you say, it’s a matter of scale and strapping 6 or more locos to most trains to cover that sheer size of country is something we cannot compete with. It would be interesting how the EU as a block of 28 compares though given the Nationalist buy local policies and clearly the influence of the USSR up to 1989 means there isn’t the same dominance of 1 or 2 loco manufacturers ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted December 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 28, 2018 (edited) I see your point. US railroads have always been more freight dominated though, so more dependant on locos. Even passenger trains are largely loco hauled apart from urban commuters and the Acelas.I'm not saying we didn't build good locos-we did. But the scale was tiny by comparison even with European manufacturers. I don't think we were ever geared up for volume production in the same way, even in wartime. Edited December 28, 2018 by rodent279 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 The USA also benefits from having a large single market ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 28, 2018 Was that the reason eps had the two class 73's on the books, as I always thought they were an odd choice as a rescue loco? No. they were ideal for shunting at North Pole and a pair of them made a perfectly sensible rescue loco (or even a single one when working on 3rd rail supply). They were allegedly capable of working an empty Eurostar 'Three Capitals' set (i.e. a full 18 vehicle formation) from North Pole to Waterloo via Kew including reversal on the bank at North Pole but I was somewhat sceptical of that and insisted that the trial trip was done using the pair. That presented no problems on the non 3rd rail equipped parts of the route but I think a single one would have got into trouble in a couple of places. Even at the time I thought the various plans for North of London services were triumphs of optimism and hope over reality. More like a triumph of real politik over just about everything else! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I couldn’t care less what locosare better or will be used. I just shake my head at another transfer of contract between FOCs , that doesn’t make inroads into road transport any further and must be based mainly on cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I couldn’t care less what locosare better or will be used. I just shake my head at another transfer of contract between FOCs , that doesn’t make inroads into road transport any further and must be based mainly on cost. So what do you propose that isn’t illegal? The customer wants best value & best service. The customer issues a long term contract to open tender. Do you think FL, GBRF etc shouldn’t bid because DB hold the current contract? How does that satisfy the customer and prove to them best value / best service? If they conspire to not bid then they are in breach of the law and would be subject to prosecution. DB have been cross hiring drivers etc from other FOCs to service this contract for a number of years so how do you know that DB are meeting the customers expectations? How do you know that FLs offering doesn’t include or facilitate new flows and additional investment over what DB would offer? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcoblanco Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Our loco building industry really was a cottage industry by comparison. No wonder it hasn't survived. Have we even built 6000 diesels in the UK? Yes by the time you have built 500 of something the errors and faults can be found and clear way forward for design for the next 500,so on and so forth. Only build 50-60 of such a complicated machine your asking for problems. The cost goes down with high volumes and more tech can be built in. The 59s are a no brainer. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcoblanco Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Anybody in the know, know if this means 59s will be repainted into yukkie FL livery..? Please not!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted January 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 19, 2019 Anybody in the know, know if this means 59s will be repainted into yukkie FL livery..? Please not!! What about the DB 59/2s? Aren't they currently maintained alongside the Mendip Rail 59s? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 So what do you propose that isn’t illegal? The customer wants best value & best service. The customer issues a long term contract to open tender. Do you think FL, GBRF etc shouldn’t bid because DB hold the current contract? How does that satisfy the customer and prove to them best value / best service? If they conspire to not bid then they are in breach of the law and would be subject to prosecution. DB have been cross hiring drivers etc from other FOCs to service this contract for a number of years so how do you know that DB are meeting the customers expectations? How do you know that FLs offering doesn’t include or facilitate new flows and additional investment over what DB would offer? Many questions. I don’t know what the solution is but I still find it depressing when I’m regularly almost rammed off the road by 44T trucks that FOCs are competing against each other rather than the bigger enemy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted January 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 19, 2019 Many questions. I don’t know what the solution is but I still find it depressing when I’m regularly almost rammed off the road by 44T trucks that FOCs are competing against each other rather than the bigger enemy Don't worry too much, the 44Te trucks are also competing against each other............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Many questions. I don’t know what the solution is but I still find it depressing when I’m regularly almost rammed off the road by 44T trucks that FOCs are competing against each other rather than the bigger enemy The thing that depressed me about the rail freight industry is when you see apparent duplication of resources with what seems to me needless light diesel mileage, or traincrew travelling around when there are resources of another FOC much closer. By the end of my railway career I was glad to get out, just before EWS became DBS. The constant reorganisations were draining. I still occasionally meet some of the EWS drivers I worked with, though hardly any remain with DB. Tis the way of the world though I suppose, and no different from on the roads. My mother orders quite a bit over the phone, some days she might get two or three deliveries as well as the normal post, one by Royal Mail, one in a brown van, one in a white van,..... all adding to congestion and pollution. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) Couldn’t agree more. Even in the early privatisation era it seems utilisation was better. For instance( and someone may know better ) look at whatseems to happen at west bury. Those colas 70s seem to sit idle for most of the week other than the hinksey/bescot trip.....in the meantime a DB 66 is used as a shunter and one will do a trip to Eastleigh and back because they have the contract for that... A GB 66 comes light from Eastleigh to operate the bulk ballast to somewhere up north .... Efficiently and utilisation seem very poor , because everyone has a little piece of the cake and the parts of the jigsaw don’t fit together Edited January 20, 2019 by rob D2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) On 21/12/2018 at 15:09, newbryford said: FY didn't have the option of rejecting a 60 - the 59s arrived in 1986 and the tender for the 60s was issued in 1987. FY were comparing the offerings of the US against a 56. No contest there! Right debate wrong party, it was BR that evaluated the 59 against the 60. I have a copy of the projector slide deck for EMDs sales pitch. this was before Powerpoint, and used an overhead projector with slides on in those days. its about 30 slides, so nothings changed.. death by slides as opposed to death by ppt. Edited July 6, 2019 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcoblanco Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 'For instance( and someone may know better ) look at whatseems to happen at west bury. Those colas 70s seem to sit idle for most of the week other than the hinksey/bescot trip.....' Yes I noticed this on a couple of spotting trips at westbury.. One 70 was actually on tickover most of the day and created an awful stink' in the air.. Yuk! I thought these modern things were environmental!! Anyways I see the 59/2s are off to pastures new in nov as freightliner supplying there own locos..All change!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2019 19 hours ago, Marcoblanco said: 'For instance( and someone may know better ) look at whatseems to happen at west bury. Those colas 70s seem to sit idle for most of the week other than the hinksey/bescot trip.....' Yes I noticed this on a couple of spotting trips at westbury.. One 70 was actually on tickover most of the day and created an awful stink' in the air.. Yuk! I thought these modern things were environmental!! Anyways I see the 59/2s are off to pastures new in nov as freightliner supplying there own locos..All change!! I hope Freightliner's locos are up to 5,000 tonne trailing loads although presumably the Mendip Rail (ex Yeoman) 59s will still be in use? The 66s seem to be able to mange the lighter trains ok from what I've seen from lineside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 For reference, 24 wagons is the most a 66 will take up the B&H. No idea how many extra a 66/6 could drag Jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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