Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[Budgie]

On 05/05/2019 at 13:22, The Johnster said:

I am pushing it a little justifying one on Cwmdibath (4162 would have to have a through duty from Barry concocted for it), so two are unlikely.  I have an old Airfix, which runs, albeit not to my standards, already.  My final decision is likely to be 'informed' by price, reported slow running quality, and availability at the time.  It is unlikely that I'll be buying either as soon as they're in the shops.

 

You wouldn't have the same loco on every through duty from Barry, would you? Even if this duty was once a day or once a week, surely you'd get different locos, not necessarily every time, but enough times to warrant buying a new model.

[The Johnster]

No, you wouldn't.  There were, in any event, no through workings beyond Tondu into the valley hinterland from Barry, or AFAIK anywhere else; everything came off and went on shed at Tondu.  4162 ticks a livery box that cannot be ticked any other way, and was supplied new to Barry in early 1948.  It can be excused as an occasional 'borrow' or a return Bank Holiday excursion, or perhaps a pigeon special, but it's appearance at the top end of one of the Bridgend valleys is, to be honest, not probable.  

 

4145, at the shed in G W R initials from delivery in 1946 to transfer away end March 1948, and 4144 in what must have been BR unicycling lion black, transferred in beginning October 1957, are the only suitable candidates for my period limits if I'm being sensible, and locos that spent such a short time at the shed during my period are a bit of a luxury.  My withdrawn Airfix is numbered for 4145, and I used it on the Tremains workmans and parcels traffic.  It's original chassis, which ran well enough, wore out at the slide bars, and a replacement is a stiff runner.  It's not really worth bothering with.

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by The Johnster

[B15nac]

The BR versions were at the kernow new shop opening at the start of the month but no better pictures of them yet. 

 

Kind regards Neil 

[rovex]

Hope this is the right place to post this.

I'd always assumed one of the benefits of a tank local was that it didn't have to be turned for the return journey. 

However a quick scan of photos of Birmingham Snow Hill fails to turn up any of this class on a suburban working going bunker first. This is whether entering or leaving the station. A few on freight workings but none on passenger services?

Surely these engines wouldn't have been turned at Snow Hill, involving as it did a trip to the other side of the station in many cases.

[Talltim]

Photographers seemed to have preferred photographing tank locos when they were running chimney first, so there may be an element of selectiveness in the photos taken, especially considering that each photo had a cost, unlike now with digital cameras.

[Miss Prism]

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw376.htm

 

But that does seem to me something of an exception - chimney first does predominate in pictures.

 

 

[melmerby]

Here's one bunker first arriving at Leamington from Snow Hill:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2099.htm

 

and as this is a Tyseley loco, probably another:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2100.htm

[Ian Hargrave]

They were in common use on The Vale Of Neath line in the 1950's. Both Neath and Pontypool Road had an allocation...one of Neath's ( 87 A ) 8104 being of the 81XX variety . And yes of course they ran bunker first.Railway photography was rare and its skills were even rarer. There was no Eric Treacy or Norman Lockett on every lineside or platform.Both decent film and cameras were an expensive commodity.So why wouldn't you wait for the shot that showed the loco and train to best advantage ?

 

My first efforts...long now thankfully cast into oblivion.....were of Saints with quaint names like Quentin Durward and Cefntilla Court  with a Box Brownie 127. Try taking a moving train with one of those.....I'm afraid we perhaps understandably assume too much from early railway photography.

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw376.htm

 

But that does seem to me something of an exception - chimney first does predominate in pictures.

 

 

Looking through the North Warwickshire Line pages on the site there are at least 8 other examples of large Prairies running bunker first on passenger trains, and for good measure a Bulldog arriving tender first at Stratford upon Avon. 

There was quite a bit of that on the Snow Hill locals even into the 1960s when I managed to get a tender first run behind a Grange on a Stourbridge line local. At least the crew were in front of the chimney up through Old Hill Tunnel and it was a fine day.

[melmerby]

37 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Looking through the North Warwickshire Line pages on the site there are at least 8 other examples of large Prairies running bunker first on passenger trains, and for good measure a Bulldog arriving tender first at Stratford upon Avon. 

There was quite a bit of that on the Snow Hill locals even into the 1960s when I managed to get a tender first run behind a Grange on a Stourbridge line local. At least the crew were in front of the chimney up through Old Hill Tunnel and it was a fine day.

Certainly I can remember tanks (Type not remembered so many years on!) running bunker first from Snow Hill or Moor Street, typically with 4 coach rakes,  as the GWR was my "local" line where I spotted frequently.

OK I actually lived between GWR & LMS routes but always preferred the "Western"

[Miss Prism]

12 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Looking through the North Warwickshire Line pages on the site there are at least 8 other examples of large Prairies running bunker first on passenger trains

 

Accepted, but I tried to confine myself to BSH services, which was the scope of Rovex's remark.

 

Paddington Prairie ins and outs seem a bit of a mixture, even though the turntables at Ranelagh Bridge,  Reading and Oxford were arguably a more readily accessible compared to BSH services. My guess, and it is only a wild guess, is that if a Thames Valley loco needed more coal, then it might take the opportunity to turn if there was time. Or maybe there was a more fixed pattern? Hmmm, dunno,

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

I wonder how much of it was crew preference as to whether the loco was turned. There were a couple of instances where reversal could take place i normal work such as Birmingham - Dudley - Wolverhampton - Birmingham  or Birmingham - Stratford - Leamington - Birmingham which happened on some of the parcels workings.

Otherwise gradients could play a part as  the Birmingham area is higher than most of the surroundings. Prolonged climbs included Warwick Avon Bridge to Olton on the Leamington line, Stratford to Earlswood and Tyseley to Earlswood on the North Warwicks, and Stourbridge to Rowley Regis or Dudley,  

[TheSignalEngineer]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

Certainly I can remember tanks (Type not remembered so many years on!) running bunker first from Snow Hill or Moor Street, typically with 4 coach rakes,  as the GWR was my "local" line where I spotted frequently.

OK I actually lived between GWR & LMS routes but always preferred the "Western"

Around the time of the Class 116 DMU introduction many of the trains had been reduced from the traditional Birmingham 'B' set (BT/C/C/BT) to three-coach sets which mirrored the DMU capacity consisting of C/BS/S, the first two usually being taken from a four-coach set and the latter sometimes being a BR Mk1 W46xxx vehicle. A common form of marshalling seems to have been with the First class section of the Composite coupled to the Brake end of the BS.

Here's one at Winson Green in 1961 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrswg1936.htm

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Accepted, but I tried to confine myself to BSH services, which was the scope of Rovex's remark.

 

Paddington Prairie ins and outs seem a bit of a mixture, even though the turntables at Ranelagh Bridge,  Reading and Oxford were arguably a more readily accessible compared to BSH services. My guess, and it is only a wild guess, is that if a Thames Valley loco needed more coal, then it might take the opportunity to turn if there was time. Or maybe there was a more fixed pattern? Hmmm, dunno,

 

Turning at Paddington would not be particularly straightforward.  The tank engine worked trains used either the suburban station (no turning facility at all of course) or were right over towards the arrival side so accessing Ranelagh Bridge from there, and getting back over, were not simple moves.  Photos indicate that prairies seem to have used Paddington Yard and were a rarity on Ranelagh Bridge - the latter being hardly surprising as it was there to deal with short turnround mainline engines.

 

Equally at Reading trains were dealt with almost entirely on the Relief Line side particularly in No.6 and No.10 bays so I doubt there was much time available to get to shed.  And don't forget the bunker on the Collet series large prairies held 4 tons of coal which would be more than enough for over 200 miles of running so could probably easily manage three return trips between Reading and Paddington without any need to coal (including standing time between trains).   So they could easily manage a shift on a bunker full of coal although I would think (but don't know) that they would probably be coaled between shifts on many of the suburban turns so would go on shed for that anyway.  And of course they couldn't be easily turned at Slough off the trains which terminated there.

 

When they worked the Regatta shuttle services on our branch (5 coach sets) they would run in from either London or Reading then up & down all day and back to London or Reading in the evening without any need for coaling so they were probably doing a bit over 200 miles notwithstanding a round trip of only 10 miles on the branch itself.  

 

And yes as SE has suggested there were no doubt many crews who preferred to work chimney first with tank engines - it was more comfortable for a start but equally there was plenty of tank engine (and tender engine) work where running bunker/tender first was inevitable in one direction.

[The Johnster]

Most steam engines most of the time had sufficient coal to last for their working day, though one does hear tales of long distance non stop expresses arriving with empty tenders, but having kept working pressure until arrival at King's X or wherever after a rough trip.  Water was another matter. steam locos consume vast quantities of it even if things are going well, and need frequent replenishment.  This can be done without recourse to shed facilities, even on the move from troughs.  Tank engine work in general gives plenty of opportunity to brim the tanks, which only takes a few minutes and can be done at a platform.

 

Abercynon shed's 'Auto JB' (St Fagan's Pullman) duty had the loco off shed for about 16 hours; light to Pontypridd, work to Cardiff (Clarence Road) via Church Village and St Fagan's, about 20 miles, two shuttles to Penarth, back to Ponty via St Fagan's at lunchtime for crew relief, and then repeat the performance in the afternoon, 2 auto trailers, a fair bit of climbing in both directions and Penarth bank, fast running to keep out of the way on the main line from St Fagan's to Cardiff General, finish off by running light Ponty-Abercynon.  This busy and tightly timed little job clocked up an accumulated mileage that would have been respectable for a main line express duty (and make the Brighton Belle look like a trip freight) during in it's working day.  The tiny bunker of the 64xx was sufficient for the work, but the tanks probably couldn't make it past Cardiff (General) without needing topping; there was no water at Clarence Road, which is unusual for a terminus.

 

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

And yes as SE has suggested there were no doubt many crews who preferred to work chimney first with tank engines - it was more comfortable for a start but equally there was plenty of tank engine (and tender engine) work where running bunker/tender first was inevitable in one direction.

Moor Street, of course, had no turntable so locos required to return with their coaches just switched tracks on the traversers to run round.

Inevitably one direction was bunker first.

[TheSignalEngineer]

22 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Around the time of the Class 116 DMU introduction many of the trains had been reduced from the traditional Birmingham 'B' set (BT/C/C/BT) to three-coach sets which mirrored the DMU capacity consisting of C/BS/S, the first two usually being taken from a four-coach set and the latter sometimes being a BR Mk1 W46xxx vehicle. A common form of marshalling seems to have been with the First class section of the Composite coupled to the Brake end of the BS.

Here's one at Winson Green in 1961 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrswg1936.htm

If you're modelling in my era you can even have three coach liveries on different types of vehicle on one train

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1718.htm

[tomparryharry]

21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Most steam engines most of the time had sufficient coal to last for their working day, though one does hear tales of long distance non stop expresses arriving with empty tenders, but having kept working pressure until arrival at King's X or wherever after a rough trip.  Water was another matter. steam locos consume vast quantities of it even if things are going well, and need frequent replenishment.  This can be done without recourse to shed facilities, even on the move from troughs.  Tank engine work in general gives plenty of opportunity to brim the tanks, which only takes a few minutes and can be done at a platform.

 

Abercynon shed's 'Auto JB' (St Fagan's Pullman) duty had the loco off shed for about 16 hours; light to Pontypridd, work to Cardiff (Clarence Road) via Church Village and St Fagan's, about 20 miles, two shuttles to Penarth, back to Ponty via St Fagan's at lunchtime for crew relief, and then repeat the performance in the afternoon, 2 auto trailers, a fair bit of climbing in both directions and Penarth bank, fast running to keep out of the way on the main line from St Fagan's to Cardiff General, finish off by running light Ponty-Abercynon.  This busy and tightly timed little job clocked up an accumulated mileage that would have been respectable for a main line express duty (and make the Brighton Belle look like a trip freight) during in it's working day.  The tiny bunker of the 64xx was sufficient for the work, but the tanks probably couldn't make it past Cardiff (General) without needing topping; there was no water at Clarence Road, which is unusual for a terminus.

 

Takes water at Penarth ISTR.

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Indubitably.  And Ponty; there was little time a the General to more than put a splash in.  

[B15nac]

When are these due to arrive can't be to long now? 

 

Regards Neil 

[Black 5 Bear]

Hornby's website states Autumn 19. Many outlets have these locos listed as expected August/September dependant on which particular variant is required.

Perhaps we'll have further info tomorrow in this month's edition of the Engine Shed.

[The Johnster]

Discipline, Johnster, discipline.  94xx first, then you can start thinking about 5101s...

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Discipline, Johnster, discipline.  94xx first, then you can start thinking about 5101s...

94xx? That’s the one taken half a decade isn’t it?

[tomparryharry]

Big prairie please. When that's done & dusted, can we have a re-worked pannier? The money's here, just call, deliver & collect.....

[Pannier Tank]

4 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Big prairie please. When that's done & dusted, can we have a re-worked pannier? 

 

or an upgraded 14xx ?