Miss Prism Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 3 hours ago, brushman47544 said: Unless I’m mistaken, it appears from the photos above that it’s large crest = disc below, small crest = above. Good theory, but it doesn't hold: http://www.gwr.org.uk/prairie-pics/8104.jpg http://www.gwr.org.uk/prairie-pics/3100-july57.jpg 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 30, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2020 Overall we seem to have three positions used above the number plate, namely: Immediately above, Above and to the side and Near the top of the bunker. So far I have only found evidence of one position being used below the numberplate. (give or take a couple of inches) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 30, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2020 Here's one for you https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-gwr/6100-class-2-6-2t/ea889c8bb Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted May 31, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2020 Ok let’s put this to bed. Various locos from the Prairie Papers books. 5 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 31, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2020 5 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 7 hours ago, Hilux5972 said: Ok let’s put this to bed. Various locos from the Prairie Papers books. What are we putting to bed? Half of those are in different positions.... I know the reason why they are in different positions, but do you? Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 31, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2020 I know why those are in different positions above the number plate but, as can be seen from other photos, above the number plate was not universal even on locos in the same condition. It certainly doesn't put anything "to bed" 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 They are all in slightly different positions depending on whether they are lined or not. Lined ones the "dot" is lower. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted May 31, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2020 The oft-quoted phrase is 'find a photo'. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted May 31, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2020 I was meaning the position of the route indicator disc on bunker step locos. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2020 18 hours ago, Hilux5972 said: I was meaning the position of the route indicator disc on bunker step locos. What do you mean by the 'route indicator disc'? Being pedantic do you mean the Route Availability and Power Class 'disc'? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted June 1, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 1, 2020 22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: I know the reason why they are in different positions, but do you? Jason What is the reason, and your source please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 15 minutes ago, PMP said: What is the reason, and your source please? The photos above and thousands of others. The discs on lined locomotives are in different places than ones without the lining. Look at 6151 and 6100 (I think, could be 6106) above. The disc is higher. The lined ones such as 5164 and 8102 are lower. Hardly putting the matter to bed, but reinforcing the notion they were put in different positions. So you've got foot steps, handrails and the livery dictating to where the discs were placed. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted June 1, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: The discs on lined locomotives are in different places than ones without the lining. Jason So the actual answer is you don’t have a source Discs on locomotives were often in the same place regardless of lined or unlined. 4157 unlined black 27/06/64 4135 lined green 16/06/62. Same class, both at ‘6’ o’clock position with bunker steps. So your reason is invalidated. What we do know is the position varied. Edited June 1, 2020 by PMP Remove word for clarity 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted June 1, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Do I need a source? I use my own eyes and I reckon I know more about Prairies than most since I was involved in the dismantling and part restoration of one. Look at the photos or are you just trying to be abusive? They are still on the page you are looking at or are you just being an asswipe on purpose? Why am I getting the flak? Not the person posting "Lets put that to bed?". I pointed out the lining. Which means the discs are lower on the ones with it. I would used photoshop or something to prove my point, but I don't have the knowledge on how to do it. FFS. I don't need to argue with morons.... Jason You ok hun? Re the source I was thinking a prototype reference, eg GWR/WR paint specs, as clearly there are multiple positions for the RA marking to go on. You know to help establish a few actual reliable facts seeing no one has arrived with a definitive answer. Least of all it appears yourself, who said you knew the answer. Because you’ve taken apart a real one and operated one doesn’t really help in determining if there’s a established protocol for where these markings go. You did point out the lining, that is clearly irrelevant, due to the fact that lined praries have them underneath the plate in the same position as unlined versions. So no photoshop required, just looking at pictures. NB. the pictures on this thread aren’t the only pictures of these engines available. Some of us have pictures taken at the time and books. You should try them sometime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 No. I'm offended that you chose to pick on me rather than the person who is telling everyone to put the matter to bed or other posters. I've looked at the pictures. They are in the Prairie Papers books and the hundreds of other books in my possession and all over the internet such as Warwickshire Railways, RCTS, HMRS, Rail Online. Do you really think I haven't done that already? You are purposely trying to be abusive to me personally. For what reason I don't know. Nor do I care. I'll make my own mind up, ta...…. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulleidnutter Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Getting back on topic swiftly. You could have 2 Prairies in Swindon paint shop being painted at the same time with the discs placed in 4 different positions. No doubt there was a painting spec for the locos but the signwriters will have put then where it was easiest to apply. The other thing to throw into the mix is if the loco had any medium repair and needed a quick touch up. The disc may have disappeared and a replaced in a different place. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted June 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2020 Out of interest has anyone found a photo of one of these tanks in BR days with the disc on the upper forward area of the cab side sheet or on the sliding shutter as in GWR days? I wondered whether some very early BR paint jobs, still done in GWR style livery but with "British Railways" insignia, might be like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted June 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bulleidnutter said: The disc may have disappeared and a replaced in a different place. And there’s more than a few with no marking too, and likely some with it one side and not the other. As mentioned above if the position of the marking is important to you, find a photo of ‘your’ engine and change it if required. Edit Re Melmerby above, not yet. Most of my images are BR but don’t cover GWR livery transition Edited June 2, 2020 by PMP 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted June 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2020 There is one picture of 4144 in preservation but in the only other transition era picture I have seen the disc wasn't obvious. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted June 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, melmerby said: There is one picture of 4144 in preservation but in the only other transition era picture I have seen the disc wasn't obvious. The position there does tie in with a couple of pannier pictures I have. In those in GWR livery or ‘Block Egyptian’ British Railways livery the RA marking is next to the plate, rather than high cab side. It’d be a ballsy move to extrapolate that as a standard across Panniers let alone all types. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted June 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2020 It would appear that the Hornby pages relating to the Large Prairie have been moved into the 'difficult to find' section of RMweb. I wonder why? Perhaps it's a Froth War breaking out in anticipation of this much-anticipated model. Surely not? The ship carrying the Prairie models is circling the Azores, while carefully-chosen staff are removing said coloured dots, and putting them back on, but upside down. As far as I know, Caerphilly put those RA discs on slightly different to everyone else, just like painting the reversing rods red on the tender locomotive. Find a photo, and relax. I'm sure there are-is some transfer entrepreneurs who will sell you as many RA discs as you or I will need. I'm just awaiting the model to finally appear. 4 1 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2020 56 minutes ago, PMP said: The position there does tie in with a couple of pannier pictures I have. In those in GWR livery or ‘Block Egyptian’ British Railways livery the RA marking is next to the plate, rather than high cab side. It’d be a ballsy move to extrapolate that as a standard across Panniers let alone all types. An interesting one is 6116 where in final GWR livery the discs on both sides were just off the top left hand corner of the numberplate. I wonder if the painter did the one on teh step side first and then decided to match it on the Driver's side? Overall I wouldn't mind betting the painters put the disc wherever they found it easiest to paint it and depending on what steps or staging they had handy. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I think this is WSR's 4160, looking very much like 4144 above, where the white 'W' below the plate forces the power and route disc to be above the plate. http://www.uksteam.info/wsr/picsc/00082031.jpg Note the white W has disappeared from 4144 and the power and route disc lowered in a later presentation: http://www.gwr.org.uk/prairie-pics/4144-british-railways.jpg 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Miss Prism said: I think this is WSR's 4160, looking very much like 4144 above, where the white 'W' below the plate forces the power and route disc to be above the plate. http://www.uksteam.info/wsr/picsc/00082031.jpg Note the white W has disappeared from 4144 and the power and route disc lowered in a later presentation: http://www.gwr.org.uk/prairie-pics/4144-british-railways.jpg Also one has to be careful with preservationist painting because while it can sometimes be extremely accurate using original records and, ideally, photos it can also go very badly wrong - e.g. the incorrect colour of the Route Availability disc on City of Truro at its most recent 'part of the National Collection' repaint. Whether or not it has subsequently been corrected I don't know but the really amusing thing is that the disc was the correct colour when the engine was painted (on one side only) in the faux BR lined black livery at the SVR back in 1984/5. Knowing the extent to which certain Hornby researchers go I don't doubt that what has been criticised in this thread about the position of the disc has been copied from a contemporaneous prototype photo. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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