Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

47 minutes ago, melmerby said:

What's all this 10oz, 9.5oz malarkey?

I never used them at work from the 1960s and I haven't used them at all since the supermarkets started using metric.

These days find it difficult to equate Imperial weights with what I am buying.

That's where the 28x table comes in handy. Or if preferred 30x and deduct 5.5%. Gotta use that mental arithmetic to keep the brain cells challenged at my age...

 

It's a funny thing, I am all grams, milligrams, micrograms (career background in some very arcane chemical and physical science) for small stuff; ounces, pounds, stones, cwt. for bigger stuff (several years casual employment in greengrocery while studying).

[tomparryharry]

27 minutes ago, melmerby said:

But so do Hornby's 0-6-0 (and many other) tender engines, so hence my query of why the Oxford Dean Goods was brought into the thread as if it was unusual.

 

Ah, limited exposure on my part, I feel. I used the Oxford Dean as an example. My thoughts about putting pickups on the pony trucks remain, however.

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

I have found that the NEM pocket on the front pony truck is too far back.

I came to fit Kadees and found a #18 fouls the buffer plank and even a #19 isn't far enough forward. (I don't have any #20s as I have rarely found the need for even a #19!)

A standard tension lock loop is still behind the buffers when fitted.

Arrghh!

Not only is the NEM pocket on the front too far back, it is too high as well, with the result that Hornby have supplied a front tension lock which is cranked and is slightly longer.

Hornby, how could you?

I  thought non standard mounts had gone after Bachmann's pathetic cranked couplings.

That knocks a couple of stars off it for me as I will need to cobble something for the Kadee coupling.

 

[No Decorum]

3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

That's where the 28x table comes in handy. Or if preferred 30x and deduct 5.5%. Gotta use that mental arithmetic to keep the brain cells challenged at my age...

 

It's a funny thing, I am all grams, milligrams, micrograms (career background in some very arcane chemical and physical science) for small stuff; ounces, pounds, stones, cwt. for bigger stuff (several years casual employment in greengrocery while studying).

4 mm to the foot. Metric is handy for some things and Imperial for others. Both metric and Imperial for yet others. Then again, some things are still produced in Imperial but described in metric, from 454 gram jars of marmalade to yards of flexi track. Still other things are specified in metric but built in Imperial such as the Class 16. It’s all good fun, unless you have to recover a 16 collapsed in a remote location.

[didcot]

When I did my apprenticeship the instructors in Building 501 would give you a drawing in imperial units ie 1 1/6, a metric micrometer and the lathe would be in Thou increments. Soon learnt that 1mm was 40 thou and chop and changed units quite happily. 

Back on topic my 6110 arrived via Derails today and very nice it is to. Just given it a quick run on the rolling road and it is very smooth.

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 Gotta use that mental arithmetic to keep the brain cells challenged at my age...

 

 

Too late for me, mine are already dead

[KeithMacdonald]

4 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

It's a funny thing, I am all grams, milligrams, micrograms (career background in some very arcane chemical and physical science) for small stuff; ounces, pounds, stones, cwt. for bigger stuff (several years casual employment in greengrocery while studying).

 

Completely agree. When I was on a Engineering Degree in the 1970s, everything was metric. Imperial measures never got a mention. Yet I still find Base 60 Mathematics ( or 12 base 60 math) useful, especially when explaining to folks. “Invented” by the Sumerian – Babylonians somewhere between 4000 – 7000 years ago in Mesopotamia, we still use it every day. It is from where we get 60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes per hour and 24 hours per day. We also get 12 months per year, 12 inches per foot, and so on.

[St Enodoc]

15 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

That's where the 28x table comes in handy. Or if preferred 30x and deduct 5.5%. Gotta use that mental arithmetic to keep the brain cells challenged at my age...

 

It's a funny thing, I am all grams, milligrams, micrograms (career background in some very arcane chemical and physical science) for small stuff; ounces, pounds, stones, cwt. for bigger stuff (several years casual employment in greengrocery while studying).

Pints and miles. Where would we be without those?

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Pints and miles. Where would we be without those?

Which would you rather have, 4 pints or 4 litres?

Miles, what are they? Funny Italian measure, I thought we measured in chains and links.

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Which would you rather have, 4 pints or 4 litres?

Depends if I"m buying or selling.

4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Miles, what are they? Funny Italian measure, I thought we measured in chains and links.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 hours ago, melmerby said:

...Not only is the NEM pocket on the front too far back, it is too high as well, with the result that Hornby have supplied a front tension lock which is cranked and is slightly longer...

The lapse worsens. And the rear coupler pocket position?

 

Aside of this issue, how's the mechanism performing for those who have given it a deal of operation?

 

36 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

...What have the Romans ever done for us?

Failed to make sufficient technical progress, allowing British engineers to have the credit for kicking off the industrial revolution.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Which would you rather have, 4 pints or 4 litres?

Miles, what are they? Funny Italian measure, I thought we measured in chains and links.

As it happens I have long worked, and continue to work when necessary, with miles, chains, and yards as units of measurement on Britain's railways.  All perfectly logical and readily understood units of measurement so no problems making use of them.  And as speeds on our roads are measured in miles per hour, and distances are measured in miles the units are of some importance if you are planning and making a journey by road as well as for those involved in certain aspects of railway operational planning.

 

All we need to remember is that we live in a land where we use a mix of scales of measurement and learn to live with it.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The lapse worsens. And the rear coupler pocket position?

 

Aside of this issue, how's the mechanism performing for those who have given it a deal of operation?

 

 

The rear pocket seems to be about the correct position but it is has very sloppy fit for the fishtail, which allows a coupling to droop, so I have had to pack underneath the fishtail to keep a Kadee NEM coupling anywhere near the correct height.

 

Mechanism is fine, a few hours of use (on DCC) and it's low speed performance is excellent with no signs of jitter. I tried it on DC as well (blanking plug replaced) and it is much better than out of the box, running in has improved it no end.

I had it running around my layout (DCC) with 8 various Hornby, Lima, Airfix & Bachmann bogies (mainly siphons) and it does slow slightly on my 1:100 gradient.

I'm not sure whether it is slight slipping or just slowing due to the load.

 

Coupling issues apart a nice model.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

...I had it running around my layout (DCC) with 8 various Hornby, Lima, Airfix & Bachmann bogies (mainly siphons) and it does slow slightly on my 1:100 gradient.

I'm not sure whether it is slight slipping or just slowing due to the load.

Useful information altogether there, for which thanks. If the decoder has effective BEMF speed regulation, then slipping is the likely cause of the slowing.

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Which would you rather have, 4 pints or 4 litres?

Miles, what are they? Funny Italian measure, I thought we measured in chains and links.

 

Links, eh? 

 

Where's the sausages?

[Hilux5972]

Interesting that the pony trucks have the old method of a piece of bent metal for a spring. Has anyone found suitable space for a speaker? Is under the bunker large enough? Could you fit a sugar cube under the chimney?

Edited July 4, 2020 by Hilux5972

[PMP]

38 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Interesting that the pony trucks have the old method of a piece of bent metal for a spring. Has anyone found suitable space for a speaker? Is under the bunker large enough? Could you fit a sugar cube under the chimney?

What’s really interesting is that the bogies don’t have a piece of metal for a spring.

 

 

Yes under the bunker is large enough for a speaker. If you fit a sugar cube under the chimney, you’ll likely need to cut the chassis down to fit it, and then find space somewhere else for a chip.

 

Re Kadee couplers, I wouldn’t expect a UK company to design for them, apart from providing an NEM socket.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

22 minutes ago, PMP said:

 

Re Kadee couplers, I wouldn’t expect a UK company to design for them, apart from providing an NEM socket.

 

The Kadees just use a standard NEM socket so you just need to provide one.

Other Hornby locos I have just take a #18 without adjustment.

There is a spec for a NEM socket,  unfortunately on this loco they haven't adhered to it hence they aren't even right for a Tension lock.

The front one is too high and too far back so a non standard tension lock is supplied.

The rear one is so sloppy that a standard one hangs too low.*

 

* this is not totally unusual however and many locos & other vehicles have sagging couplings, Dapol are pretty good at that.

[melmerby]

34 minutes ago, PMP said:

 

Yes under the bunker is large enough for a speaker. If you fit a sugar cube under the chimney, you’ll likely need to cut the chassis down to fit it, and then find space somewhere else for a chip.

 

 

That's where it's supposed to go and is shown as such on Hornby's service sheet.

[PMP]

30 minutes ago, melmerby said:

There is a spec for a NEM socket,  unfortunately on this loco they haven't adhered to it hence they aren't even right for a Tension lock.

The front one is too high and too far back so a non standard tension lock is supplied.

The rear one is so sloppy that a standard one hangs too low.*

 

* this is not totally unusual however and many locos & other vehicles have sagging couplings, Dapol are pretty good at that.

There is no agreed standard for UK 4mm NEM Pocket positioning to my knowledge, which is why we have a few models (Like this) that have specific couplings for that model. The front coupling included works fine for UK Standard tension locks, and is non standard to clear the vacuum pipe on the front bufferbeam. 
There isn’t  a great deal of point in the UK market demanding additional details on models, the manufacturers accommodating them, and then customers complaining about non standard couplings being awkward to fit.

 

Re the bunker speaker, I’m aware that’s where it goes, I have both taken mine apart and read the instructions.

[melmerby]

32 minutes ago, PMP said:

There is no agreed standard for UK 4mm NEM Pocket positioning to my knowledge, which is why we have a few models (Like this) that have specific couplings for that model. The front coupling included works fine for UK Standard tension locks, and is non standard to clear the vacuum pipe on the front bufferbeam. 
There isn’t  a great deal of point in the UK market demanding additional details on models, the manufacturers accommodating them, and then customers complaining about non standard couplings being awkward to fit.

 

Re the bunker speaker, I’m aware that’s where it goes, I have both taken mine apart and read the instructions.

That's a pretty offhand attitude to take. The required tension lock is non standard.

 

If there is no agreed standard in the UK (which I agree there isnt), why bother putting an NEM pocket on at all? If it's not required it becomes pretty pointless fitting one IMHO.

Here we have the case where it needs a special tension lock which could have been avoided if the pocket was in a slightly lower position and more forward, neither of which were impossible to do on the pony truck.

The NEM is a standard for coupling pockets and if you are going to opt to use it, you should abide by it, all of it, otherwise why not just fix the coupling any old how like they used to.

The UK manufacturers laissez faire approach to NEM pockets position is utter ridiculous.

 

EDIT

BTW this is what Hornby says (my embolding):

"NEM Coupling

A standard universal type of coupling that can be fitted by means of a small socket on the underside of most locomotives and rolling stock. It enables models from different manufactures to be run coupled together."

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by melmerby

[PMP]

26 minutes ago, melmerby said:

That's a pretty offhand attitude to take. 
 

EDIT

BTW this is what Hornby says (my embolding):

"NEM Coupling

A standard universal type of coupling that can be fitted by means of a small socket on the underside of most locomotives and rolling stock. It enables models from different manufactures to be run coupled together."

 

The model as supplied works with the UK tension lock couplings without any problems. Mine works with both Bachmann and Hornby items with no problems, therefore it’s fit for purpose with the equipment supplied, and couples to other manufacturers stock.

If a customer wants to fit different types of couplings, kadee/Roco  then I feel it unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to try to accommodate all the possible variations of a non standard type for the market (UK).

[melmerby]

You just don't get it do you?

Because Hornby have not put the coupling pocket in the same plane as usual it needs a special coupling (supplied)

The one on the back wont fit on the front and the one one the front is wrong on the back.

So fitting NEM pockets is a waste of time, the coupling might just as well be permanently fitted.

 

Claiming something has an NEM pocket implies that it is to a standard else it is not an NEM pocket.

In which case UK manufacturers should stop claiming they fit NEM pockets because they don't.

Edited July 4, 2020 by melmerby

[dibber25]

This sounds like a hair-splitting exercise. The NEM pocket has a particular shape and proportions to enable it to take a wide range of couplings fitted with the appropriate fork-shape to plug into the socket. IF NEM has a standard position for the socket, then it should be 'specced' as an NEM pocket fitted at NEM height. It may well have been a difficult exercise to fit a coupling of any sort - other than a scale screw-link - to this loco and at the end of the day the only requirement - from the manufacturer's view point - is that the loco should couple correctly to Hornby rolling stock, which it does. (CJL)

[melmerby]

38 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

This sounds like a hair-splitting exercise. The NEM pocket has a particular shape and proportions to enable it to take a wide range of couplings fitted with the appropriate fork-shape to plug into the socket. IF NEM has a standard position for the socket, then it should be 'specced' as an NEM pocket fitted at NEM height. It may well have been a difficult exercise to fit a coupling of any sort - other than a scale screw-link - to this loco and at the end of the day the only requirement - from the manufacturer's view point - is that the loco should couple correctly to Hornby rolling stock, which it does. (CJL)

OK I'll split hairs.

Say I've decided to fit Hornby's own NEM fitting "close couplers" as all my previous Hornby stock is fitted with them.

Problem. Hornby's own NEM close coupler is no good on this loco as it doesn't fit at the right position at the front.