Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, MG 7305 said:

Am I the only one to be amazed by how gawdy Hornby models have become over recent years?  In the case of the GWR 61xx I record, a not exhaustive list:

 

1.  The all brass cylinder relief valve mechanism.  Most of this is steel and should be black and no one was polishing the cocks and exhaust pipes on a 61xx.

2.  Injectors and associated pipework.  These  was/is black, refer to recent repaint of 6106.  A 61xx was not a King, assuming Kings were so polished.

3.  Injector feed pipes on top of tanks to clack valves.  No one was polishing these, assuming they were copper in the first place.

4.  Hand brake handle, fireman's side in cab.  No, it was not red, it was black.  See 6106 again.

5.  Unpainted and polished brass pipes to the whistles.

 

Some of these, serials 1 and 2 for example, are also evident on the 42/52/72xx classes and 28xx/2884 classes amongst others, 

 

Not so gawdy but should be correctly presented:

 

1.  Reversing lever handle and reversing lever releasing handle, drivers side.  The tops of these should be polished steel, not red.

 

Other issues on request.

 

On the plus side correcting these issues on my railway increase sales of Humbrol paints!

 

Best regards

 

Julian

I think the red handbrake handle and reversing lever handle and release clip should be red on BR liveried locos, IIRC but I'm happy to be corrected.  Some of the other stuff may have been polished in ex-works condition but would not have lasted looking like that beyond the loco's first steaming, and the injector feed and whistle pipes are a bit attention grabbing.  I would not let any of this affect my decision to buy or not buy the loco, as a wash of weathering will hide most of it anyway.

 

I am far more upset by the Oxford Dean Goods' brass chimney cap and copper dome in the fully lined out Edwardian livery; this is blatantly wrong and looks very odd!

[Hilux5972]

5 hours ago, MG 7305 said:

Am I the only one to be amazed by how gawdy Hornby models have become over recent years?  In the case of the GWR 61xx I record, a not exhaustive list:

 

1.  The all brass cylinder relief valve mechanism.  Most of this is steel and should be black and no one was polishing the cocks and exhaust pipes on a 61xx.

2.  Injectors and associated pipework.  These  was/is black, refer to recent repaint of 6106.  A 61xx was not a King, assuming Kings were so polished.

3.  Injector feed pipes on top of tanks to clack valves.  No one was polishing these, assuming they were copper in the first place.

4.  Hand brake handle, fireman's side in cab.  No, it was not red, it was black.  See 6106 again.

5.  Unpainted and polished brass pipes to the whistles.

 

Some of these, serials 1 and 2 for example, are also evident on the 42/52/72xx classes and 28xx/2884 classes amongst others, 

 

Not so gawdy but should be correctly presented:

 

1.  Reversing lever handle and reversing lever releasing handle, drivers side.  The tops of these should be polished steel, not red.

 

Other issues on request.

 

On the plus side correcting these issues on my railway increase sales of Humbrol paints!

 

Best regards

 

Julian

To start with, you can not use a preserved loco as fact, unless it has been untouched since steam days, so your referring to 6106 and it’s recent repaint does not help matters at all. 

[DCB]

There are plenty of old photos to work from. 61XX were booked for works attention at around 78 000 miles probably 18 months so they had quite a few works visits and repaints down the years. Problem is most of the photos are black and white and te colour ones have dodgy colour.  As to the Hornby GWR Green I suspect they copied 5322 in ROD livery for GWR green.   Thank heaven for Humbrol GW green and Rover Brooklands Green rattle cans.

Edited July 27, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Butler Henderson]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

My big bear is fitting couplings where there is only a very shallow / sloppy notch in the buffer beam. Such fittings normally require quick drying superglue by virtue of you having to hold the coupling till it sets (if you don't it tends to fall out or end up wonky), however one slip of the fingers and you smear superglue over the buffer beam (or up the back of the bunker of an ornately lined out P tank)

Drop the glue into the hole off the end of a pin and then insert the part

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

To start with, you can not use a preserved loco as fact, unless it has been untouched since steam days, so your referring to 6106 and it’s recent repaint does not help matters at all. 

There's no concensus amongst modern repaints to make them a definitive approach at all.

 

In "Great Western Way" I notice it says that when introduced Collett's 5101 class had polished brightwork but it was later painted over. It doesn't expand on that statement as to what is "brightwork" but I assume mainly brass and copper fittings.

[Ian Hargrave]

So then.....any observations to date on Hornby’s latest reincarnation of GWR green as now carried by this Large Prairie ?

 

[The Stationmaster]

48 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

So then.....any observations to date on Hornby’s latest reincarnation of GWR green as now carried by this Large Prairie ?

 

Dunno but the BR black version looks alright to me  (Sorry Ian, couldn't resist it and at least they have got one colour right!)

[gwrrob]

53 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

So then.....any observations to date on Hornby’s latest reincarnation of GWR green as now carried by this Large Prairie ?

 

 

You'll get my view when it finally comes Ian.

[tomparryharry]

The GWS  folks do many, many good things at Didcot. sadly though, you can't trust the grade of colour past the end of the paint brush. Some people will say that they have the closest match of Chrome green, but it can & does vary. 

 

Even black has several shades....

 

Only Flying Scotsman has the correct shade of green. I know, because my Auntie Mabel's second cousin (twice removed ) used to drive it.....

[Ian Hargrave]

But can anyone truly replicate Hornby sagebrush green ? Of course shortly we will see Dapol’s version  too. That will be interesting.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Ian Hargrave
Additional text

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

In "Great Western Way" I notice it says that when introduced Collett's 5101 class had polished brightwork but it was later painted over. It doesn't expand on that statement as to what is "brightwork" but I assume mainly brass and copper fittings.

 

I think the mention of polished brightwork for the Collett prairies was because it represented a relaxation of the previous post-1922 instruction that chimney tops and safety valve covers for 'goods and ordinary passenger locos' should be painted over (black, green, respectively). The extent of the application of that 1922 regime seems however open to question, and relaxations seem to be increasingly apparent toward the end of that decade. The situation following the prairie relaxation is no clearer either - the first lot of 48xxs had painted over safety valves, but many 1934 panniers had unpainted ones. Not quite anarchy, but it does seem the erecting shop took opportunity to re-establish the old unpainted/polished tradition from time to time, and maybe it wasn't until 1936 (say) when a distinction was being drawn between 'goods' locos and 'ordinary passenger' locos.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

If I ever buy another 5101, it will be renumbered as either 4145 in G W R unlined 1942-7 green austerity livery, as delivered new to Tondu in 1947, or 4144 as xfer Tondu 1957, in what I am going to assume in lieu of better information was unlined BR black with unicycling lion livery, and, by that time, black backed number plates.  4145, it can be fairly safely assumed, spent it's entire Tondu career in the livery it was delivered new in, which is known, at least to the extent that that was the livery new 5101s were being painted in at the time.  But 4144 will have to be best guestimation; the loco was in lined green as I remember it in it's final years before withdrawal and a deteriorated version of that at Woodham's, with a ferret and dartboard emblem, which suggests that it never received the 1956 lined green unicycling lion livery and had it's last repaint before 1965 withdrawal from BR plain black.  

 

But (and this is a typical issue for representing locos as correctly as I can on Cwmdimbath) 'suggests' is open to interpretation.  I have never seen a photo of 4144 while it was at Tondu from late 1957 (my period is 1948-58, 11 years in all) to the end of '58.  It could have been in lined green unicycling lion, lined green ferret and dartboard (just), unlined black unicycling lion black numberplate backing (my guesstimation), unlined black uncycling lion red numberplate backing, or either of the last 2 liveries in lined mixed traffic unicycling lion livery.

 

4144 currently carries early 1948 BR livery, unlined green with Egyptian Serif GW style lettering in 1920s style 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on tanks, no smokebox numberplate.  I believe this is an incorrect livery that the loco was unlikely to have carried in service, being less than 2 years in service when this livery was discontinued at the end of May 1948.  It is correctly applied, though!

 

11 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

61XX were booked for works attention at around 78 000 miles probably 18 months so they had quite a few works visits and repaints down the years.

Not that many repaints, David; repaints were only carried out at Heavy General overhauls which, depending on how the loco built up the mileage, were anything up to 10 or more years apart, and probably about 6 or 7 for a 61xx in intensive use, a little more for a South Wales 5101 on shorter valleys workings,  Outdated liveries could be carried in traffic for several years after the latest livery change and many locos will 'miss out' on some liveries altogether.  I doubt all the 61xx and certainly not the 5101s (built over the course at least 5 livery periods) were ever all in the same livery at the same time in service, especially as BR introduced 'economy' unlined green or black on some locos post 1958.

[gwrrob]

Here's a photo I took of 4144 at Kiddy last year in that livery.

 

[DCB]

On a slightly different tack, does anyone know if the 61XX have the same crank pin screws as other current Chinese Hornby sort of 2010 on locos.   I have a possibly 2010 on Thomas the Tank chassis which I could happily break for spares and the screws look similar and but  don't have access to the 61XX till the weekend.

[The Johnster]

Thanks Robin.  4144 is an old friend from my spotting days and it is always good to see photos of her irregardless (i've been waiting for a chance to use that word!) of the correctness of her livery.  She looks very smart in it!

[9402 Fredrick]

Am I one of the only people weirded out by the lack of a shed code on R3725 4160? I'm assuming they're wanting to model her when she was in storage before being needed at Severn Tunnel Junction.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

Am I one of the only people weirded out by the lack of a shed code on R3725 4160? I'm assuming they're wanting to model her when she was in storage before being needed at Severn Tunnel Junction.

What's weird about the engine not having a shed plate, especially on a livery sample?  Not exactly uncommon in the real world and as Hornby tend to work from photos for final detail it could well be that in the photo they used for this engine did not have a shed plate or it was missed off the livery sample.  We will only know what shed code it is or isn't carrying when it's actually delivered and we see either a photo of the production model or (in the case of some of us) it is actually sitting in our hands.  And if it does turn up without a shed plate it's not exactly the worst task in the world to add one and that might be better than having to change a pre-printed code.

 

The engine must have acquired that livery when at either Merthyr or Radyr because by the time it left Radyr 'economy green' was in vogue and in any case the engine only had 18 months to go before withdrawal so it was unlikely to have received a major shopping & repaint.  Logically it could potentially carry either an 88D, or 88A, or 88B shed plate before it acquired an 86E plate - so maybe Hornby hadn't made up their mind at the time of the decoration sample?  It was photographed in July 1962 in a clean condition so it might not have acquired line green before it went to Radyr?   As it happens either Radyr or the Tunnel would just about suit me, and for sentimental reasons Radyr would be rather nice

[dibber25]

On 26/07/2020 at 21:30, MG 7305 said:

Am I the only one to be amazed by how gawdy Hornby models have become over recent years?  In the case of the GWR 61xx I record, a not exhaustive list:

 

1.  The all brass cylinder relief valve mechanism.  Most of this is steel and should be black and no one was polishing the cocks and exhaust pipes on a 61xx.

2.  Injectors and associated pipework.  These  was/is black, refer to recent repaint of 6106.  A 61xx was not a King, assuming Kings were so polished.

3.  Injector feed pipes on top of tanks to clack valves.  No one was polishing these, assuming they were copper in the first place.

4.  Hand brake handle, fireman's side in cab.  No, it was not red, it was black.  See 6106 again.

5.  Unpainted and polished brass pipes to the whistles.

 

Some of these, serials 1 and 2 for example, are also evident on the 42/52/72xx classes and 28xx/2884 classes amongst others, 

 

Not so gawdy but should be correctly presented:

 

1.  Reversing lever handle and reversing lever releasing handle, drivers side.  The tops of these should be polished steel, not red.

 

Other issues on request.

 

On the plus side correcting these issues on my railway increase sales of Humbrol paints!

 

Best regards

 

Julian

Maybe something to do with having to SELL the model? Make it look a bit pretty and it'll sell more than just a dull plain black. Easy enough to dab a spot of black paint over whatever you don't like - and then weather it. (CJL)

[9402 Fredrick]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

What's weird about the engine not having a shed plate, especially on a livery sample?  Not exactly uncommon in the real world and as Hornby tend to work from photos for final detail it could well be that in the photo they used for this engine did not have a shed plate or it was missed off the livery sample.  We will only know what shed code it is or isn't carrying when it's actually delivered and we see either a photo of the production model or (in the case of some of us) it is actually sitting in our hands.  And if it does turn up without a shed plate it's not exactly the worst task in the world to add one and that might be better than having to change a pre-printed code.

 

The engine must have acquired that livery when at either Merthyr or Radyr because by the time it left Radyr 'economy green' was in vogue and in any case the engine only had 18 months to go before withdrawal so it was unlikely to have received a major shopping & repaint.  Logically it could potentially carry either an 88D, or 88A, or 88B shed plate before it acquired an 86E plate - so maybe Hornby hadn't made up their mind at the time of the decoration sample?  It was photographed in July 1962 in a clean condition so it might not have acquired line green before it went to Radyr?   As it happens either Radyr or the Tunnel would just about suit me, and for sentimental reasons Radyr would be rather nice

BOTH early livery samples for the BR livery large prairies were missing the shed plate, but R3723 has its shed plate, including in the FINAL livery sample, but not R3725.

[Hroth]

Don't mind if R3725 is missing a shed plate, its getting renumbered anyway!

 

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

BOTH early livery samples for the BR livery large prairies were missing the shed plate, but R3723 has its shed plate, including in the FINAL livery sample, but not R3725.

 
And so your point is.....exactly what ?  Etched plates are available if it vexes you to any extent. All GW models will benefit from their application.

 

Best wait until the model is released before being overcome by minor issues  I think.

 

 

 

 

[Neal Ball]

On 27/07/2020 at 18:50, gwrrob said:

Here's a photo I took of 4144 at Kiddy last year in that livery.

 

Lovely photo Robin.

[tomparryharry]

16 hours ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

Am I one of the only people weirded out by the lack of a shed code on R3725 4160? I'm assuming they're wanting to model her when she was in storage before being needed at Severn Tunnel Junction.

 

It's just an observation on my part, but perhaps, just perhaps, Hornby are moving towards leaving things like numberplates separate to the model. I'd surmise that a great many modellers will want 'their' locomotive on 'their' shed. Possibly more damage is done to the hapless model, by people trying to scrub off the shedcode plate.

[gwrrob]

At least there's no recess for the cab-sides on these models.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

BOTH early livery samples for the BR livery large prairies were missing the shed plate, but R3723 has its shed plate, including in the FINAL livery sample, but not R3725.

But R3723 is a production model, we still haven't seen the production version of the lined green engine.  You don't seem to understand what a livery sample is for - it is to check that the livery detail is correct and approve it for the production batch.  So when we see an illustration of a livery sample we might well notice an error or something missing that we think should be there but that doesn't matter provided Hornby's lads (and lasses in non-railway models) are doing their jobs as well as they usually do because they will pick up any problems and get them corrected for the production run.

 

But if there is no shed plate you can buy etched ones or transfers and you can even get custom transfers for a particular code.  so what, exactly. is the problem?

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=1632