Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[Ian Hargrave]

21 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

Remember that colour perception changes as we age (the main change is that the world looks more orange, although our brains compensate for that for a while).

 

So what may be perfect to one person, may look wrong to another.

 

 

 
And ?

[tomparryharry]

7 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

No he didn’t. If you listen properly he says after an hour of running in. He briefly tests before running in and then runs in and comes back again after that.

 

Thank you. I didn't hear that. On that basis, I'll delete my post.

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Thank you. I didn't hear that. On that basis, I'll delete my post.

Sorry if that came across as harsh in my post. It wasn’t intended that way. 

[tomparryharry]

No need to apologise old chap. Being civil to each other (and the forum at large) makes the place better for all. 

 

As I've said, I haven't bought one of these Large Prairies yet, despite publicly saying that I will. Naturally, the model concerned needs to come up to a perceived standard.  I'm just concerned that the last 2 years of polite conversations & observations by everyone has, or might have, come to naught. 

 

"Grasped from the jaws of victory, perchance?"

 

Have a great weekend, everyone.

 

Ian. 

[gwrrob]

I'm wondering if a change of factory has played a part in the finished product here.

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

Towards the end of steam in 1964 even the little 4575 Prairies hauled full length main line sets of around 12 coaches from Old Oak Common to and from Paddington as Empty stock.  Churcward himself described to the GWR Board in July 1905 how the 31XX  built for the very heavy mineral trains in the  Monmouthshire district  had been run at 75 MPH with complete steadiness and in December 1905 that one of them was running a 70 wagon train between Southall and Banbury doing the round trip in a day with one set of enginemen.   That was the non superheated low pressure predecessor of the 61XX.  

4575 were allowed 392 tons between Paddington and Reading as were 57XX and 94XX but Paddington ECS trains aren't really a guide to very much except the ability to climb the E&C line gradients to the flyover between Ladbroke Grove and Old Oak.   Many years ago (obviously) I had a footplate ride on a 57XX working an ECS from Old Oak to Paddington with 15 on and the Driver's only worry was getting a run - in so far as he could get a run - at the bank leaving Old Oak yard and not wanting to be stopped at the auto signal just before the flyover.  The train was entirely formed of Mk1 coaches so we're talking of 450+ tons so technically over what the Load Book said for a through load but it was at low speed (maximum officially 15 mph) , not normal line speeds.

 

In simple terms any decent design of steam loco can usually shift more than it is theoretically permitted to shift but the essential difference is can it maintain time while doing so?  And never forget that Load Book loads were always based on engines in 'average' condition.  Get an engine in top form with a really good crew and you'll usually beat what the book says all other things being in their favour.

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, gwrrob said:

I'm wondering if a change of factory has played a part in the finished product here.

.  Whether or not the change (of factory) has had an impact on quality is an unknown as far as we are concerned - we can only judge by the finished model in our hands.

 

But it does seem a regrettable feature of some factories that final assembly and relevant quality control can be sometimes lacking and UK customers get what they pay for (and from what I've heard of on more than one occasion of another r-t-r name don't get what we might have been led to believe they have paid for (which we end up paying for).

 

Original opening sentence deleted in the light of informed comment from Muz   My original final sentence stands and it should be noted was very much a general comment and not one specifically aimed at the prairie.

Edited July 31, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[Legend]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
Especially when compared to their new Princess Royal which does set new standards in both performance and finish.Why this discrepancy ?

Just for comparison for under £25 more you can buy a model that is light years ahead in quality...and they did run ( briefly) on the WR too.

 

Could it be different factories make them , and the contractor doing the Princess is much better . You used to be able to see the factory ref in the instruction sheet. Would be interesting to see if different.  Of course Hornby should ensure consistent QC

[Ian Hargrave]

54 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Could it be different factories make them , and the contractor doing the Princess is much better . You used to be able to see the factory ref in the instruction sheet. Would be interesting to see if different.  Of course Hornby should ensure consistent QC

Yes maybe there are reasons for this but that’s surely a matter for Hornby to deal with in the appropriate way. I couldn’t give a sniff who makes it but I do care if a model falls short of an expected standard for the price that I pay when I compare it with a very recent series of purchases of one of their best to date. 
 

    FYI  Prairie is LOT 01.     Princess is TEC 05 

[Legend]

3 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Yes maybe there are reasons for this but that’s surely a matter for Hornby to deal with in the appropriate way. I couldn’t give a sniff who makes it but I do care if a model falls short of an expected standard for the price that I pay when I compare it with a very recent series of purchases of one of their best to date. 
 

    FYI  Prairie is LOT 01.     Princess is TEC 05 

Agreed  but as Hornby clearly not doing it, maybe we need to show more caution with items marked “LOT’  . Would be interesting to see if we could classify products by that code . I bet that could be revealing 

[melmerby]

Haven't Hornby been using "LOT 01" for some time?

 

EDIT I can answer that myself.

Yes, loads of my Hornby stock is LOT 01 going back many years.

The superb Lord Nelson was LOT 01

Edited July 31, 2020 by melmerby

[Ian Hargrave]

So when we make a purchase,as most of us do,online of a newly released model,we ask the vendor for the box code . Oh well...

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

So when we make a purchase,as most of us do,online of a newly released model,we ask the vendor for the box code . Oh well...

IMHO that is a red herring as LOT 01 has produced some excellent models for Hornby over the years.

 

I still don't see this Prairie as bad as some are trying to make it.

Edited July 31, 2020 by melmerby

[Ian Hargrave]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

IMHO that is a red herring as LOT 01 has produced some excellent models for Hornby over the years.

 

I still don't see this Prairie as bad as some are trying to make it.

That’s a good point but a fair number of forum members are unimpressed ,including in the case of GW examples,me. As GWR Rob posts,it could have been a lot better.As to what Hornby can do if it puts its mind to it,I’ll point you once again in the direction of the Princess.That is the standard that should have been achieved.No it’s not bad but I’m afraid that’s hardly the point.Better is possible.

 

With regard to my post on box checking....I posted that with my tongue firmly in my cheek. As if...

 

[maico]

I do wonder if it's the product of a different factory due to the lack of metal die-cast in the body, something Hornby have been moving to in more recent times. The following Hornby all have metal boilers AFAIK:

 

D16

J15

B12

J36

Drummond 700

Adams Radial

Shools class

 

(forthcoming BR 2MT and Duchess of Atholl limited edition)

[melmerby]

54 minutes ago, maico said:

I do wonder if it's the product of a different factory due to the lack of metal die-cast in the body, something Hornby have been moving to in more recent times. The following Hornby all have metal boilers AFAIK:

 

D16

J15

B12

J36

Drummond 700

Adams Radial

Shools class

 

(forthcoming BR 2MT and Duchess of Atholl limited edition)

Hornby started using die-casted parts to increase the mass on certain "smallish" models

No need for die-cast in the GWR Prairie as there is plenty of room for mass in those big tanks. (pity they haven't taken full advantage of it!)

Factory "LOT 01" is a regular Hornby supplier.

[Graham_Muz]

Just to prevent future conjecture and false information regarding factories I refer you to the following.   
It is well known that the Hornby supply chain includes a number of different factories in China.
It was explained at the 2020 range media press briefing last December that I attended, that one of the factories was unexpectedly at very short notice closed, due to a compulsory purchase of the land by the Chinese government!
The owner had a sister factory in the North of China but this was not set up for the more complex moulded items and assemblies. Moulding machines had to be moved and reinstalled and up skilling or staff take place. 
This issue has affected / delayed the production of the Class 800s, these large prairies and also closer to my heart the original style Merchant Navys. 
I hope this clears things up and prevent speculative posts. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Graham_Muz

[Ian Hargrave]

Thank you Graham for this. It explains a lot of what has...and has not.....been happening. All one has to do is join the dots and draw your own conclusions from that.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

I appreciate that competition and corporate confidentiality mitigate against the concept of making customers aware of these sorts of production problems (I refer you to the saga of The Johnster and Bachmann’s 94xx), but cannot believe that competition in this field is so cutthroat asto preclude any possibility of the potential customer being made aware of it.  Toy trains or not, many of us consider ourselves to be adults, and will usually not throw our toys out of the pram if we are informed of production difficulties. 
 

But se of us might be prone to pramchuck behaviour if items are repeatedly put back with no explanation (The Johnster will emulate Krakatoan characteristics if he doesn’t get his 9487 in November unless there’s a good reason that he’s been told about). 

[Graham_Muz]

27 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I appreciate that competition and corporate confidentiality mitigate against the concept of making customers aware of these sorts of production problems (I refer you to the saga of The Johnster and Bachmann’s 94xx), but cannot believe that competition in this field is so cutthroat asto preclude any possibility of the potential customer being made aware of it.. 

As I said in my post the issue was very openly discussed at the media briefing and we were told we could report it. 
I certainly included the information within my blog post covering the 2020 range announcements, especially as it was relevant to the Merchant Navy models. I can’t recall if it was reported in the other media regarding the range launch, however I would not expect them to keep repeating it. 

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I appreciate that competition and corporate confidentiality mitigate against the concept of making customers aware of these sorts of production problems (I refer you to the saga of The Johnster and Bachmann’s 94xx), but cannot believe that competition in this field is so cutthroat asto preclude any possibility of the potential customer being made aware of it.  Toy trains or not, many of us consider ourselves to be adults, and will usually not throw our toys out of the pram if we are informed of production difficulties. 
 

But se of us might be prone to pramchuck behaviour if items are repeatedly put back with no explanation (The Johnster will emulate Krakatoan characteristics if he doesn’t get his 9487 in November unless there’s a good reason that he’s been told about). 

 

I do have my 'extreme Cynic' hat on, but I'll guess there's another price rise before you enter your local model shop,  and get your sticky mitts on the prize. 

 

Mind you. I've been wrong before....

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

Just to prevent future conjecture a false information regarding factories I refer you to the following.   
It is well known that the Hornby supply chain includes a number of different factories in China.
It was explained at the 2020 range media press briefing last December that I attended, that one of the factories was unexpectedly at very short notice closed, due to a compulsory purchase of the land by the Chinese government!
The owner had a sister factory in the North of China but this was not set up for the more complex moulded items and assemblies. Moulding machines had to be moved and reinstalled and up skilling or staff take place. 
This issue has affected / delayed the production of the Class 800s, these large prairies and also closer to my heart the original style Merchant Navys. 
I hope this clears things up and prevent speculative posts. 

I see no reason there for a perceived drop in quality as we are getting models made by the same company (presumably LOT 01) on the same machines but in a different location.

What comes off the machines should be of the same quality

 

Where there could be differences is in final assembly which is labour intensive and is being done by a new workforce.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

As I said in my post the issue was very openly discussed at the media briefing and we were told we could report it. 
I certainly included the information within my blog post covering the 2020 range announcements, especially as it was relevant to the Merchant Navy models. I can’t recall if it was reported in the other media regarding the range launch, however I would not expect them to keep repeating it. 

The change of factory was definitely reported in several places but the reason for its closure was never made entirely clear from what I read.  I. believe Hornby's official statement was along the lines that a problem of some sort with the original factory had led to production being moved to another factory for both the prairie and the MN resulting in delays to both.

 

 

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I do have my 'extreme Cynic' hat on, but I'll guess there's another price rise before you enter your local model shop,  and get your sticky mitts on the prize.

Mind you. I've been wrong before....

And I hope you are this time as well; 5p coins are accumulating in a dimple bottle (not a Haig one, sadly) as I write specifically in order to mitigate such an eventuality...  I’ve pre-ordered it from Rails of Sheffield at £106.99, and will be more than happy if the price doesn’t rise!
 

If it does, I have many times pointed out to price moaners that ‘it costs what it costs’ so I’ll only be hoist on my own petard, and I’m sure there’ll by more than a few who’ll consider that to be no more than my just deserts.  Maybe they’ll have a point...

[melmerby]

I had another look at the front steps as I hadn't noticed the wide splay shown by some on here.

One was IMO reasonably vertical but the other had a noticeable splay although not as bad as the worst posted on here.

I decided to put a little pressure on the worst splayed one and it moved but I don't think I have broken it, it still seems fairly solid, so hopefully job done.

They now look presentable.

 

Not sure how they are fitted, looked like part of the main moulding but I'm not so sure.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by melmerby