Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[Coppercap]

2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Does show what a good model the old Airfix one  was for its day. Are the Airfix front steps properly vertical - if so the new arrangement is actually a retrograde 'step' (sorry :))

The front running plate is certainly straighter on the ex-Airfix one!

Edited September 21, 2020 by Coppercap

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

 Are the Airfix front steps properly vertical - if so the new arrangement is actually a retrograde 'step' (sorry :))

They are upright and those on 6110 aren't far off.

 

Meanwhile colour comparison of new 6110 and the last (?) GW green version of Hornby's previous model

By this time it had had another slight revamp as the vacuum brake hoses are more realistic, the buffers are sprung and the chimney copper colour is better, even though the chimney is still the same.

The safety valve bonnet still looks rather crude.

 

6110:

 

5154:

 

From this you can see the green has changed to something closer to the latest version.

 

The thing that really show the model's age are the driving wheels, which although not all Airfix's as there are no traction tyres are still rather '70s IMHO and the fact that the chassis intrudes ito the cab space.

Edited September 21, 2020 by melmerby

[MikeParkin65]

11 minutes ago, melmerby said:

They are upright and those on 6110 aren't far off.

 

Meanwhile colour comparison of new 6110 and the last (?) GW green version of Hornby's previous model

By this time it had had another slight revamp as the vacuum brake hoses are more realistic, the buffers are sprung and the chimney copper colour is better, even though the chimney is still the same.

The safety valve bonnet still looks rather crude.

 

6110:

 

5154:

 

From this you can see the green has changed to something closer to the latest version.

 

The thing that really show the model's age are the driving wheels, which although not all Airfix's as there are no traction tyres are still rather '70s IMHO and the fact that the chassis intrudes ito the cab space.

Colour wise both pretty well finished (so 'tidy'), both quite flat, 6110 marginally nearer the green I expect to see but not totally convincing. Totally accept all of this is about perception, how much a person wants  a 61xx  and what alternative is there

[The Johnster]

The later Hornby’s are a significant improvement on the Airfix original, with proper open backed pony and radial truck wheels, separate handrails all round, correct distance from body, and I think the new body tooling addressed the undersized smokebox door as well.  There may have even been a proper smokebox dart. 
 

AFAIK the chassis was never retooled until the the current loco, and was well beyond it’s sell by, as were the crude crosshead assembly and delicate slide bars.  It can be made to run smoothly enough if you replace the traction tyre wheelset, though, and the loco passes muster from a distance if you can’t see inside the cab.  Crew leaning out to block the view is a bit of a cliche, and the alternative, removing the moulded sliding cab side weather sheet and replacing it further back, is probably more trouble than it’s worth on a loco that’s going to be replaced in a year or so.  
 

I would hazard a guess that the old loco can probably out-pull the new one even without traction tyres, but 8 on the flat at 60 is probably prototypical.  It’s academic on my 3-coach blt!

 

[melmerby]

29 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

AFAIK the chassis was never retooled until the the current loco,

The previous Hornby version is quite a bit different to the Airfix under the skin..

It has a can motor sitting horizontally in the middle driving through a train of gears onto the middle axle, later it acquired an 8 pin DCC socket which probably co-incides with the provision of sprung buffers etc.

It retains a very chunky chassis block like the Airfix version, so weighs 100+ gms more than the new version.

Mine will take 8 various bogies with ease and will probaby manage 10, without drastic slowing.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Out of interest I've just started running my early Hornby version on the 8ft roundy where it normally operates with three coaches or about 12 wagons. So far it's up to 12 coaches and still bowling along happily. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Out of interest I've just started running my early Hornby version on the 8ft roundy where it normally operates with three coaches or about 12 wagons. So far it's up to 12 coaches and still bowling along happily. 

Big motor, heavy chassis. Can't go wrong.

IMHO Two things which could be better on the new one.

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Big motor, heavy chassis. Can't go wrong.

IMHO Two things which could be better on the new one.

The old one took 14 OK but started to slip with 15. 

[melmerby]

On 20/09/2020 at 22:19, The Johnster said:

 

Interestingly, I have two Hornby NPCCS vans from the 'design clever' era, I mean error.  One, a Southern BY van, is a delight, a first class model that is a joy to own, has a very good level of detail, an excellent finish, and runs perfectly.  The other, an LNER 'long' CCT is a complete disaster, and seems impossible to do anything about.  It looks fine, but the running is appalling (B2Bs have been checked), the wheels cannot be replaced because of the daft inside bearings, the thing buffer locks if you look at it funny, and I have never managed to get the coupling bars the correct height.  I have taken it out of service pending purchase of a Parkside kit.

Coming back to this, although not Prairie related.

 

I have no curve less than 30" and I'm puzzled by that statement as I would have liked the couplings to be shorter because as they stand they couple too far apart, so no chance of buffer locking.

I've got two, as well as the Southern van and an LMS CCT.

[Dunsignalling]

On 20/09/2020 at 22:19, The Johnster said:

 

Interestingly, I have two Hornby NPCCS vans from the 'design clever' era, I mean error.  One, a Southern BY van, is a delight, a first class model that is a joy to own, has a very good level of detail, an excellent finish, and runs perfectly.  The other, an LNER 'long' CCT is a complete disaster, and seems impossible to do anything about.  It looks fine, but the running is appalling (B2Bs have been checked), the wheels cannot be replaced because of the daft inside bearings, the thing buffer locks if you look at it funny, and I have never managed to get the coupling bars the correct height.  I have taken it out of service pending purchase of a Parkside kit.

That's a bit odd, considering the wheelbase and overall length are pretty much identical, as is the dodgy (IMHO) inside "bearing" set up.

 

I have both, don't have issues with either, and have successfully replaced the wheels on the ER van with Gibsons. Fairly easy once the body is off, though the extra brake gear detail on the SR van makes that a bit more challenging.

 

My difference is that the NEM coupler mounts have been "rectified"  using my faithful Xuron track cutters and both vans now have #146 Kadees mounted direct to the underframes via some Plastikard packing.  

 

Gut feeling is your problem is likely to be coupling-related.

 

John

Edited September 22, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

Gut feeling is that you are probably right, but I can't really be bovvered wiv it. at the moment.  Parkside replacement is the answer, and once that's in service I may have a go at replacing the Hornby's wheels with Gibsons and having a long hard look at the couplings.  I've checked that the van sits level on a piece of mirror glass, and need to attend to a problem with one end's inside bearings in which the axle will not run freely.  I like this van, it's got a lot of character and ticks a livery box for me (late LNER passenger brown), but I've really got more NPCCS than the layout can possibly need and thus this work is low priority.  The big event this year will of course be the Baccy 94xx and cash is being put aside for this, including saving 1p and 5p coins in a bottle!  Then there's a Wills 1854 to build a chassis for, paying for a Comet cyclops auto trailer that's being built for me, and then a large prairie (see how I got back on topic, there), all on a poor pensioner's fixed income, cue tragic violins!

 

The LNER long CCT is the longest 4 wheel rigid framed vehicle at Cwmdimbath, has the longest fixed wheelbase, longest overhangs, and has to cope with minimum radius setrack no.3 curves on the fy throat; if any vehicle is going to cause trouble it's gonna be this one!  I can almost hear the grinding on the check rails as it enters the loop...

 

It'll all be done eventually, but pension means it has to be prioritised over time, and new stuff I want keeps coming out all the time; the CCT is very much a backburner project.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

On 21/09/2020 at 19:04, TheSignalEngineer said:

Out of interest I've just started running my early Hornby version on the 8ft roundy where it normally operates with three coaches or about 12 wagons. So far it's up to 12 coaches and still bowling along happily. 

 

I was interested in comparing the new one with this 12 coach benchmark as it certainly felt lighter than expected when it first came out of the box. Mine has had no issues with 12 coaches on test (I would usually have 6 or 7 maximum, more commonly 5 coaches). 7 Maunsells and 5 Mk1s if that makes any difference. I couldn't see any point in adding any more carriages! My similarly sized 52xx can shift them but appeared far less comfortable with the job.

 

The prairie did have trouble shifting 9 Hornby Pullmans, but I'm not sure that they would be a fair test with their pick-ups creating extra drag.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Torn-on-the-platform said:

 

I was interested in comparing the new one with this 12 coach benchmark as it certainly felt lighter than expected when it first came out of the box. Mine has had no issues with 12 coaches on test (I would usually have 6 or 7 maximum, more commonly 5 coaches). 7 Maunsells and 5 Mk1s if that makes any difference. I couldn't see any point in adding any more carriages! My similarly sized 52xx can shift them but appeared far less comfortable with the job.

 

The prairie did have trouble shifting 9 Hornby Pullmans, but I'm not sure that they would be a fair test with their pick-ups creating extra drag.

The Pullmans can be a challenge 

[john dew]

 

This is an extract from my latest Granby post where I have started to weather the new prairies. I thought it might be worthwhile reaching out to a wider audience with a couple of questions.

Here are three rather crude closeups of the bunker with plastic coal load removed


 

 

 

 

 

 

 Ignore the air gun slugs which add a little more weight.....to be painted black and covered with real coal

A couple of questions for the experts

(1) In the three shots of the bunker you can see a pipe on the right hand side. It starts at the bottom, rises vertically  and then turns 90o to run horizontally near the top of the bunker and turns thru 90o again and rises vertically to terminate in a loop on the edge of the right hand grille.

Not seen this detail before and have no idea of its function......any suggestions?

(2) Can I assume that Fire Irons and Spare Lamps were stored inside the cab?
There are no retaining devices for fire irons and no side lamp irons. I dont recall seeing any on photos although perhaps I should do a more detailed search. Any help will be much appreciated

 

NB Since writing this I checked a load more photos and did, eventuallly find one prairie with fire irons stowed on the tank top......but it was on a a preserved line.

 

Regards from Vancouver where we are enjoying the last day of sunshine before the monsoon season

 

John

[mswjr]

I am pretty sure the pipe run in the bunker was just a breather from the water tank,  The fire irons were stored on top of the side tanks,  Not sure about the lamps.

 

[mswjr]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-prairies.html

 

Some good photos on here , shew the fire irons on top of the tanks.

[St Enodoc]

59 minutes ago, mswjr said:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-prairies.html

 

Some good photos on here , shew the fire irons on top of the tanks.

Those photos also show the two spare lamp irons on the left side between the tank and steam pipes, which is what I would expect.

[Miss Prism]

There is a fireiron stowage location inside the cab at the rear

 

Tank breather pipe, inside the bunker

 

Both pics from the excellent Brian Daniels album.

 

[john dew]

4 hours ago, mswjr said:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-prairies.html

 

Some good photos on here , shew the fire irons on top of the tanks.

Thank you so much for your quick and helpful. I cant believe I didnt check that site.....its my go to reference, permanently book marked.

 

Miss Prism has confirmed your belief that the pipe is in fact a breather pipe. Fire Iron storage seems to be optional.

 

The photos were brilliant .....lots of interesting weathering detail and as John (St Enodoc) observed they also showed where the the spare lamps were stored.

 

Thank you again

 

John

 

[St Enodoc]

10 minutes ago, john dew said:

Thank you so much for your quick and helpful. I cant believe I didnt check that site.....its my go to reference, permanently book marked.

 

Miss Prism has confirmed your belief that the pipe is in fact a breather pipe. Fire Iron storage seems to be optional.

 

The photos were brilliant .....lots of interesting weathering detail and as John (St Enodoc) observed they also showed where the the spare lamps were stored.

 

Thank you again

 

John

 

At the risk of making @Miss Prism blush, I must say that www.gwr.org.uk is one of my go-to sites for many things, especially information about coaches.

Edited October 8, 2020 by St Enodoc
Link didn't work

[john dew]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Those photos also show the two spare lamp irons on the left side between the tank and steam pipes, which is what I would expect.

Its Mea Culpa time.......I have just discovered that Hornby have actually modelled two spare Lamp Irons exactly where they should be.

 

Mind you I did have laser eye surgery last week....
 

Best wishes

 

John

 

[john dew]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

There is a fireiron stowage location inside the cab at the rear

 

Tank breather pipe, inside the bunker

 

Both pics from the excellent Brian Daniels album.

 

Like St Enodoc I wouldnt wish to make you blush but I do find your site absolutely invaluable.......which makes it all the more mortifying that I hadnt checked there before posting my query.

 

Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction
 

Best wishes

 

John

 

 

[Neal Ball]

Having also looked at GWR.org. I wonder if the answer to the crew situation would be to remove the half open door and place crew in the doorway, as per one of the photos.....

[St Enodoc]

45 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Having also looked at GWR.org. I wonder if the answer to the crew situation would be to remove the half open door and place crew in the doorway, as per one of the photos.....

A good thought Neal. Perhaps cut the door off, put the crew in in then fix the door back in the closed position? We'll see...

[Miss Prism]

Must admit I'd never really thought about the fireiron issue before, and it's interesting that prairies did not have the usual 3 or 4 fireiron curly bracket things on the rear face of the bunker, whereas all panniers do. GWR standardisation strikes again...  ahem

 

Whether stashed on top of prairie tanks or on the back of pannier bunkers, ready access to fireirons would seem to be difficult in either case, so I guess some form of in-cab stowage was also present on panniers.

 

There is of course ad hoc stowage as well.