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Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Did he expand on what kind of issues? Happy to wait, more time to save up! 

 

He named two other locos that were on the same production line and it was delays with them that had caused a knock on effect to the Prairie. I can’t remember which two locks though!

 

The implication was that the issue was not with the Prairie locos. 

Edited by Neal Ball
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9 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Did he expand on what kind of issues? Happy to wait, more time to save up! 

I'd be surprised to get any definitive information from Simon Kohler about a the reason for a delay especially to a loco which a competitor is also having a go at, and a vague reference to problems with other projects on the same production line, which I assume means at the same assembly facility in China (and may not even refer to Hornby products) is probably about as much as he'd be prepared to 'leak'.  He is a canny operator who plays close to his chest!

 

The 'outsourced to China' production method has served the big RTR players well for a long time now, and has delivered the current high standards of scale, detail, and smooth running that we have become used to from them, at still pretty reasonable costs but this is being eroded.  If it has a flaw it is that red and blue box have relinquished direct control of their own production processes and are vulnerable to delays which damage their image but which are beyond their control.  This has happened in several instances, and is the sort of issue that makes me happy to be a customer and not a supplier...

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'd be surprised to get any definitive information from Simon Kohler about a the reason for a delay especially to a loco which a competitor is also having a go at, and a vague reference to problems with other projects on the same production line, which I assume means at the same assembly facility in China (and may not even refer to Hornby products) is probably about as much as he'd be prepared to 'leak'.  He is a canny operator who plays close to his chest!

 

The 'outsourced to China' production method has served the big RTR players well for a long time now, and has delivered the current high standards of scale, detail, and smooth running that we have become used to from them, at still pretty reasonable costs but this is being eroded.  If it has a flaw it is that red and blue box have relinquished direct control of their own production processes and are vulnerable to delays which damage their image but which are beyond their control.  This has happened in several instances, and is the sort of issue that makes me happy to be a customer and not a supplier...

I'd be happy to be a customer if there was anything to buy.

This drought of new Western Region models which are promised but are taken so long to deliver means my mattress is getting higher and higher:(

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1 hour ago, 89A said:

I'd be happy to be a customer if there was anything to buy.

This drought of new Western Region models which are promised but are taken so long to deliver means my mattress is getting higher and higherhttps://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_sad.png

Seriously? How quickly were the suburban coaches released! Would you prefer they were late than never? 

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Posted (edited)

Deleted double post

Edited by Hilux5972

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Posted (edited)
On 08/08/2019 at 14:16, adb968008 said:

 

 

Heres one of the rods/pins of 6106...

often they are overstamped, so you have to read carefully the older number underneath the stronger one.

 

6106/4144/4159/3154

 

3154 built 1907, scrapped 1950.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_08/0F2B7968-55F7-4C51-9907-9E5CB6ADC9E0.jpeg.267177dd6b147cd7abb0100e361f96ae.jpeg

 

5900/5967/7802/7820

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_08/7F339E59-7E87-4FDB-8BDA-533F3D3B3F70.jpeg.37fe0c7b9a891078a6cbc161bda65c33.jpeg

 

4079/5050/5055

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_08/8D33BD82-B4E0-4AA6-87CF-DD6A4E37A49C.jpeg.e0eacff8ea95027f0ee554ec7e86b18e.jpeg

 

5322/5337/6371/7316/6302

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_08/66521BDF-D7A4-403E-879A-71E8FFF91B1E.jpeg.2f10d164f8e5511452a8a876f0b4d537.jpeg

 

7808/ 5396/6367/6319/5380

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_08/E96E78DC-04F6-4D9A-8559-26CFA7AAD74D.jpeg.b5db4582cb04aeca12e0a77b6db886aa.jpeg

 

I said to my 8 yr old daughter who's started collecting numbers, if you see a number then it counts...

 

21 numbers from 5 locos..

 

other finds include 6399 stamped on 46100, a pony wheel on Bahamas ex-lnwr Claughton, 60009’s tender ex-60700 (w1).

 

A good way of learning how steam locos are put together, and a way for her to take on her grandfather’s vast spotting collection from the 40-60’s.

There was an interesting piece on the NRM website for the Great Gathering about boilers circulation between preserved A4s.... it might still be online.

 

EDIT - found the piece:

https://nationalrailwaymuseum.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/the-great-gathering-a-remarkable-reunion-of-locomotives-and-boilers/

Edited by G-BOAF
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

There was an interesting piece on the NRM website for the Great Gathering about boilers circulation between preserved A4s.... it might still be online.

Ah but boilers are a hard one to count...

you cant see boilers (or the boiler numbers) under the cladding.

 

I set the challenge at numbers you can see.., so includes tenders.. or anything with a visible number stamped on.

 

There has to be a bit of “skill” in it

;-)

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Ah but boilers are a hard one to count...

you cant see boilers (or the boiler numbers) under the cladding.

 

I set the challenge at numbers you can see.., so includes tenders.. or anything with a visible number stamped on.

 

There has to be a bit of “skill” in it

;-)

 

 

I mean you can see washout plugs and often mudhole doors (so you can see the boiler material therefore!), or even large section of the firebox between the frames in some cases, and most locos will have boiler ID plates visible in the cabs. So you can identify boilers if you look in the right place, even with the loco fully servicable.

Edited by G-BOAF

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

I mean you can see washout plugs and often mudhole doors (so you can see the boiler material therefore!), or even large section of the firebox between the frames in some cases, and most locos will have boiler ID plates visible in the cabs. So you can identify boilers if you look in the right place, even with the loco fully servicable.

 

I get you, try convincing an 8 year old.

Though any chance to get on a footplate she will take it.

 

i’m not As hard as my father.. one trip to Swindon works in the early 1980:#s, I came across an Aladdin’s cave of flame cut numbers destined for collectors corner... at least 30 of them... he said if it’s not on it’s wheels it doesn’t count...

 

imagine my face..

 

i also got 2 GWR castle 4-6-0 tenders at Swindon, c1983-1985, to this day I don’t know what they were from or where they went, (I also have the mystery v2 tender at a  scrap yard outside Doncaster on the Sheffield line until only in the last 10 years or so), and another such tender at Tinsley used for load bank testing I’ve never Identified). I also recall 3 or 4 tenders of LMS stanier origin, painted grey used on a Fisons weed killing train to ID.

Edited by adb968008
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Posted (edited)

This business of "counting" cops from "bits" could be taken to extremes. Some years back a preserved Black Five stripped for overhaul was found to include parts stamped with over a dozen different numbers. Each of the frames had originally been on two other locos, and not everything even came from Black Fives. IIRC, one of the bogie wheelsets had previously been on an Ivatt 2MT tank with the other coming from an 8F.

 

Also, I think Flying Moneypit has contained some components from at least a couple other A3s since BR days, and until the most recent rebuild, it had carried an A4 boiler.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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43 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

i’m not As hard as my father.. one trip to Swindon works in the early 1980:#s, I came across an Aladdin’s cave of flame cut numbers destined for collectors corner... at least 30 of them... he said if it’s not on it’s wheels it doesn’t count...

 

imagine my face..

 

Derby Works was great for spotting long deceased locos in the late 50s early 60s

There used to be piles of cabs, smokebox doors etc so plenty of "cops", except they hadn't been in the Ian Allan for some years!

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The restoration of 9629 has thrown up some interesting numbers, about 22 so far. That total will undoubtedly rise as more numbers are found.

 

Ian.

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12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

This business of "counting" cops from "bits" could be taken to extremes. Some years back a preserved Black Five stripped for overhaul was found to include parts stamped with over a dozen different numbers. Each of the frames had originally been on two other locos, and not everything even came from Black Fives. IIRC, one of the bogie wheelsets had previously been on an Ivatt 2MT tank with the other coming from an 8F.

 

Also, I think Flying Moneypit has contained some components from at least a couple other A3s since BR days, and until the most recent rebuild, it had carried an A4 boiler...

In common with most works, when dealing with the expensive wide firebox locos, Doncaster had a spare frame and boilers 'in the pool' to enable the incoming asset to be returned to traffic as fast as possible after overhaul. Smaller components went into the bosh for cleaning, and whatever came out first - reconditioned as required - went onto the next loco in the queue.

 

There's no romance in it, just an industrial asset to be sweated for revenue. By end of life it is highly likely that the loco had just a few percent at most of the metal in it when first erected, some would have none at all.

 

Running numbers can only be collected from locos currently operating in traffic, were the strict rules understood in my youth. Collecting off scraplines and the like would have been seen as akin to buying a fish from the fishmonger and then claiming to have caught it.

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22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'd be surprised to get any definitive information from Simon Kohler about a the reason for a delay especially to a loco which a competitor is also having a go at, and a vague reference to problems with other projects on the same production line, which I assume means at the same assembly facility in China (and may not even refer to Hornby products) is probably about as much as he'd be prepared to 'leak'.  He is a canny operator who plays close to his chest!

 

The 'outsourced to China' production method has served the big RTR players well for a long time now, and has delivered the current high standards of scale, detail, and smooth running that we have become used to from them, at still pretty reasonable costs but this is being eroded.  If it has a flaw it is that red and blue box have relinquished direct control of their own production processes and are vulnerable to delays which damage their image but which are beyond their control.  This has happened in several instances, and is the sort of issue that makes me happy to be a customer and not a supplier...

The blue box concern is in no different a position now from that which it has occupied for a very long time - it is a subsidiary of Kader and it has always been supplied by its parent company apart from a few agency lines such as Woodland Scenics.

 

As the prairies and GW non-gangwayed coaches went into development at the same time I do wonder if latecomers such as the 'Terriers' and various 'back to the pas reintroductions has effectively 'stolen' production slots by using up the cash required to finance production?

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13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i’m not As hard as my father.. one trip to Swindon works in the early 1980:#s, I came across an Aladdin’s cave of flame cut numbers destined for collectors corner... at least 30 of them... he said if it’s not on it’s wheels it doesn’t count...

 

imagine my face..

 

On one of my first visits to Crewe Works I saw the control cubicle and others bits labelled for 47555. Great I thought as I needed it for sight at that time, but couldn't count it as the loco itself wasn't there. 

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15 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

 

Seriously? How quickly were the suburban coaches released! Would you prefer they were late than never? 

Obviously not.

The suburban coaches were a welcome surprise and 2 sets are now running around my layout.

Their release was nearly 6 months back.

The end of the year / early part of next year could see Bachmann 94xx, Dapol Mogul, Hornby Large Prairie and Rapido / Model Rail 16xx all being released within a relatively short time frame, but at the moment very little of interest.

 

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The blue box concern is in no different a position now from that which it has occupied for a very long time - it is a subsidiary of Kader and it has always been supplied by its parent company apart from a few agency lines such as Woodland Scenics.

 

As the prairies and GW non-gangwayed coaches went into development at the same time I do wonder if latecomers such as the 'Terriers' and various 'back to the pas reintroductions has effectively 'stolen' production slots by using up the cash required to finance production?

It's possible, especially in the case of the Terrier, which from the documentary at the time was clearly something Simon Kohler felt was Hornby property; his resentment at the proposed Sheffield model was palpable.  If the production was prioritised to gazump the Sheffield model, as seems entirely likely, then the Prairie, with the knowledge that Dapol were not near releasing theirs until after the Mogul, would be a candidate for deferral.  But we'll never be told the truth of this and speculating, while fun, is pointless.  

 

I'm going to defer buying a 5101 until I have the Baccy 94xx in my sweaty paws; this must be the priority for my layout and will generate another 57xx as a by product using the 57xx mech now sitting under a Lima 94xx.  Not that i won't be tempted at a discounted bargain, should one occur, mind!

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1 hour ago, 89A said:

The end of the year / early part of next year could see Bachmann 94xx, Dapol Mogul, Hornby Large Prairie and Rapido / Model Rail 16xx all being released within a relatively short time frame, but at the moment very little of interest.

 

I would guess they will be spread out, which is probably not only best for the buyers but also those selling.

 

The Hornby Large Prairie is now estimated Christmas, Bachmann is currently estimating May 2020 for the 94xx, the Model Rail 16xx is only at 3D print stage as of 2 weeks ago and so still has to be tooled so guessing maybe next summer for it.  The Dapol Mogul was estimated by the end of this year, but that was back in April and no information since then.

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3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The blue box concern is in no different a position now from that which it has occupied for a very long time - it is a subsidiary of Kader and it has always been supplied by its parent company apart from a few agency lines such as Woodland Scenics.

 

Indeed.

Bachmann Branch Line (eventually) came about from the demise of Mainline, with Kader owning the majority of those tools and wondering what to do with them.

They had used them for runs of product for others in the mean time but eventually set up their own Company. (BBL) for the UK.

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14 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

On one of my first visits to Crewe Works I saw the control cubicle and others bits labelled for 47555. Great I thought as I needed it for sight at that time, but couldn't count it as the loco itself wasn't there. 

Which 47555? There were dozens of them in the 80s and 90s - there was no way one loco could appear in so many places all at once! 

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It’s amazing to me how every single thread in this forum invariably goes way off course from what the thread is actually about. 

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18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

....

 

As the prairies and GW non-gangwayed coaches went into development at the same time I do wonder if latecomers such as the 'Terriers' and various 'back to the pas reintroductions has effectively 'stolen' production slots by using up the cash required to finance production?

 

Thanks Mike, we probably won’t ever know for sure.

 

But of course one thing we do know is that the 61xx were announced  in this years catalogue and will be appearing the same year. Pretty good going in anyone’s book!

 

Regards, Neal.

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Seen in a cabinet at GETS and due to arrive sometime next month the GWR version was on show. BR versions to follow after.1595520743_DSCN6009(2).JPG.869ef470b339e89f43fdea1844778ad2.JPGDSCN6009.JPG.bbb2713e9186ac134a88c592d03f202a.JPGDSCN6011.JPG.dbc1213ecf4d7b9da87293186792152b.JPG

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Green looks better.

 

Just needs a tender now.

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