Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[9402 Fredrick]

1 hour ago, gwrrob said:

It appears from the Hornby website that although the BR versions will be available soon the GWR versions have been put back to Spring '20 now.

No, only the BR Black one is, the 3 green ones are pushed back, 4160 included.

[Neal Ball]

1 hour ago, gwrrob said:

It appears from the Hornby website that although the BR versions will be available soon the GWR versions have been put back to Spring '20 now.

 

I wonder why they have all slipped back again..... the latest information about the BR versions was that they were due before Christmas.

 

Even when I spoke to Simon Kohler at the GDSF he said the GWR versions were definitely due by now / Jan - he definitely didn't say Spring. However, I am sure they will be worth the wait, but its squeezing the opportunity of getting a different numbered 61xx in the 2020 catalogue.

 

[tomparryharry]

We raised all sorts of noise about the 42xx tanks, and we were let down. Not by Hornby, but by ourselves. We got into such a frenzy, that Hornby rushed the job, spurred on by us, myself included. No doubt Hornby would release a cracker this time, so I'd say let them get on with it. 

 

The defining factor is the wallet (well 'your' wallet) so let's await events.

 

Hornby! Your public awaits!

 

Happy new year,

 

Ian.  

[PMP]

9 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

We got into such a frenzy, that Hornby rushed the job, spurred on by us, myself included.

Ian.  

Any facts to back this statement?

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

We raised all sorts of noise about the 42xx tanks, and we were let down. Not by Hornby, but by ourselves. We got into such a frenzy, that Hornby rushed the job, spurred on by us, myself included. No doubt Hornby would release a cracker this time, so I'd say let them get on with it. 

 

Ian.  

The 42/52/72XX were part of the "Design (not so)Clever" era where Hornby thought they could reduce costs by simplifying some of the details.

I don't see that they were "rushed out" just to satisfy the punters.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Any facts to back this statement?

 

I'd be inclined to say yes, backed up by the historical evidence in places such as RM web, and others. Once the news of the 42-72xx models broke cover, the anticipation was immense.  I, M'lud, was indeed amongst that throng. Hornby themselves were going through the 'design clever' phase, and the general received result by the public was "yes....OK"....

 

Fast forward to the present day, I'd think the buying public is a bit more circumspect. If we were to take a poll, I'd think the overall view is "just do it once, and right". To that statement, I'll pose a question;: Why did Hornby go to the trouble & expense of a comprehensive re-tool of the big tanks? Naturally, the new Prairie is eagerly anticipated, myself included. But, we've all been down the road before. 

 

To quote your own strapline: "I'll make me own mind up, ta" is extremely apt. Good luck to Hornby; I've publicly said that I'll buy one of the anticipated prairies. But! There is a caveat! the model has to meet the 'desirability' factor. After all, what are you moving forward otherwise? I'd respectfully rushing the job in this instance would be counter-productive.

 

I think I've got that right.....

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[PMP]

2 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I'd be inclined to say yes, backed up by the historical evidence in places such as RM web, and others. Once the news of the 42-72xx models broke cover, the anticipation was immense.  I, M'lud, was indeed amongst that throng. Hornby themselves were going through the 'design clever' phase, and the general received result by the public was "yes....OK"....

 

 Oh I recall the RMw  frothnami over the 42/52xx all too well. And the 42/52/72xx were all released within the ‘design clever’ period. But did Hornby rush them out in response to the aforementioned frothnami? no evidence for that whatsoever.

[tomparryharry]

4 minutes ago, PMP said:

 Oh I recall the RMw  frothnami over the 42/52xx all too well. And the 42/52/72xx were all released within the ‘design clever’ period. But did Hornby rush them out in response to the aforementioned frothnami? no evidence for that whatsoever.

 

I'll stand by my responses. After all, if I'm wrong, I'll publicly write to that effect. I've been wrong before, and on this forum as well.  (large Prairie, anyone?). The evidence of my statement points to the fact of Hornby releasing a comprehensive re-tool in very quick time; commendable quick time, in fact. My view is that I'd rather see a first rate, timely model.

 

Historically, I seem to remember that the 42xx thread was locked  (at least twice) within this very forum.  Hornby aren't mugs; they read & react to points made by us. Of course, there may well have been financial considerations, and returns. Once again, the pages upon this forum are well populated with comments upon Hornby's supposed financial woes. You only need to see a Hornby employee buying the cheap coffee & biscuits, to generate dozens of pages on the rumour mill. I sometimes wonder if SK himself says to an office junior..... 'Ere, take a fiver out of petty cash, and pop over to Westwood. Nothing too fancy, mind...."

 

In all honesty, you'd need to ask SK yourself. My public retraction awaits... I've got to go now. There's a large crowd gathering outside, with pickaxe handles, branding irons, and other implements of torture. 

 

Have a happy new year, everybody!

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

I am dubious about the extent to which H or any other big manufacturer are influenced by these sorts of forums.  Imagining myself in the role of market researcher for one of them, I think I would want to monitor views from them, but be more guided by information from retailers about what sells when and in what quantities and at what margin.  A chum is a retired lecturer in Marketing from Universty of Glamorgan, or Glam Poly/The Mining School as we know it, and writes academic books on the subject.  He comments that the problem with marketing is that, once you've established what the customers want (bearing in mind that by and large they don't know what they want until the advertising people have told them, though within a hobby scenario such as ours we tend to have a better idea, but only a partisan and amateur concept of what can be provided profitably) and explained to R & D why nobody will ever buy their latest all singing all dancing suggestion, you've got to convince the production design engineers that they can make it within cost.  

 

Hornby must have percieved some sort of market for the 42xx and derivates, and for the upcoming large prairie, but we are not party to their precise thinking on the matter and like to froth it up a bit.  It is unfortunate that in this case it was the 'year of the production engineers', design clever, and the result was so bad that the production engineers were told to keep their ideas to themselves and do what they were told, as a retooled chassis was devised.  Fortunately for me, my 42xx came from this second tooling and runs very well but has had some worrying issues with things falling off it and piston rods coming out of the cylinders, cured by fixing and fettling of various types...

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by The Johnster

[No Decorum]

The 42/52/72xx were hardly rushed out – in fact, they were considerably delayed. As for detail, the opening in the rear of the cab, which was much complained about, was probably present in order to show off the detail inside the cab. There was an exquisitely fine handhold on one of the boiler bands which contrasted oddly with the solid moulding (the notorious “shelf”) of the handrail underneath the cab side windows. The GWR green wasn’t up to much but that wasn’t “design clever” so much as Hornby’s inability to apply a decent finish. There was a clanger in the placing of the buffer beam number but that was a clanger, not “design clever”. So far as detail is concerned, the “shelf” was the only thing which I think merited criticism. However, where “design clever” made such a mess of things was under the skin. The cheap motors were very inconsistent and adding a flywheel was not enough to get the poor examples to work properly. Worse yet were the “square axleboxes”. A rough part of the chassis casting which, one might think, had been designed deliberately to wear rapidly.

 

In fairness to Hornby, “design clever” was probably a response to complaints about the ever rising cost of models. The motive was good but the execution was awful. I quite like the term. Ruptured English to describe ruptured models.

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

The 42/52/72XX were part of the "Design (not so)Clever" era where Hornby thought they could reduce costs by simplifying some of the details.

I don't see that they were "rushed out" just to satisfy the punters.

In fact precisely the opposite to 'rushed out' - initial releases were in small numbers and some model shops only got about 10% of the quantity they ordered.  I left my order sitting with my regular retailer and had to wait the best part of 8 months until he got enough to supply most of his pre-orders Including mine) of that version.

[PMP]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It is unfortunate that in this case it was the 'year of the production engineers', design clever, and the result was so bad that the production engineers were told to keep their ideas to themselves and do what they were told, as a retooled chassis was devised. 

 

So let’s see some factual evidence that Hornby production engineers disobeyed their instructions. Who told them to keep their ideas to themselves?

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

In fact precisely the opposite to 'rushed out' - initial releases were in small numbers and some model shops only got about 10% of the quantity they ordered.  I left my order sitting with my regular retailer and had to wait the best part of 8 months until he got enough to supply most of his pre-orders Including mine) of that version.

I was fortunate and got all three of mine, 42XX, 52XX & 72XX without a delay and they turned out to not be the lame ducks some seemed to get. They ran OK and looked reasonable (within the constraints of "Design Clever").

My biggest complaint was the lack of weight which meant that for a heavy freight tank they were anything but, fortunately the motor is strong enough to allow a bit (OK a lot) of extra weight to improve adhesion.

My verdict. OK but plenty of room for improvement.

 

I expect/hope the 41XX etc. to be a step or two up from those, with better detail and smoother running and sufficient mass to pull a decent load.

Edited January 1, 2020 by melmerby

[Ian Hargrave]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

In fact precisely the opposite to 'rushed out' - initial releases were in small numbers and some model shops only got about 10% of the quantity they ordered.  I left my order sitting with my regular retailer and had to wait the best part of 8 months until he got enough to supply most of his pre-orders Including mine) of that version.

 
A not uncommon shortfall in Hornby’s production at that time.Retailers found themselves embarrassed as their pre orders either fell woefully short or didn’t appear at all.Remember the saga of 34001 “Exeter” as eBay values went skywards as a result of its scarcity on release ? Howls of protest all round.....

[No Decorum]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

I was fortunate and got all three of mine, 42XX, 52XX & 72XX without a delay and they turned out to not be the lame ducks some seemed to get. They ran OK and looked reasonable (within the constraints of "Design Clever").

My biggest complaint was the lack of weight which meant that for a heavy freight tank they were anything but, fortunately the motor is strong enough to allow a bit (OK a lot) of extra weight to improve adhesion.

My verdict. OK but plenty of room for improvement.

 

I expect/hope the 41XX etc. to be a step or two up from those, with better detail and smoother running and sufficient mass to pull a decent load.

Good that yours worked well. I got a decent runner, a poor runner and an awful runner. I expect my locomotives to work but I don’t work them hard. Anyone working them hard might well find axlebox wear a problem. By all accounts, the revised chassis was a great improvement.

 

I would expect Hornby’s new Prairies to be good runners and well detailed (although one can never be quite sure with Hornby these days). For me, a lot will turn on whether Hornby manages to squirt on a decent GWR green. The “BR” green on the Nelson looked to my eyes like an intermediate colour between BR green and SR olive: disappointing.

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, No Decorum said:

By all accounts, the revised chassis was a great improvement.

 

My 42xx has the revised chassis, and performs very well indeed; good reliable slow control and it'll pull a house down, but it took a lot of running in to get to a satisfactory level of slow running.  I have a small BLT on which 11 loaded mins and a van are the heaviest load, and have found no need to increase tractive weight.

[Mark Hamlin]

Any sign of the BR ones yet?

[Neal Ball]

6 hours ago, Mark Hamlin said:

Any sign of the BR ones yet?

Hattons advert has shown them as being on the boat for a while now..... I’m hoping the GWR liveried ones might be there as well!

 

I found it odd that during the hype of the Hornby 2020 announcement, one item was Shewn with a Feb release date... Yet the Prairies had been slipping later and later. A Feb release would also be on the boat now.

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

Hattons advert has shown them as being on the boat for a while now..... I’m hoping the GWR liveried ones might be there as well!

 

I found it odd that during the hype of the Hornby 2020 announcement, one item was Shewn with a Feb release date... Yet the Prairies had been slipping later and later. A Feb release would also be on the boat now.

The Prairies, along with the Princess’s, and a few other models, were caught up in a factory issue. It was reported on another thread that someone was talking to SK at the launch and that he said a factory had closed or was having major issues or something along those lines. This was the reason for the delay. 

[Hilux5972]

On 11/01/2020 at 07:15, Legend said:

We know from Railway Modeller that the sudden shut down of a factory delayed some Pecketts , Merchant Navies and significantly Azumas , so that might be part of reason . 

 

5 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

The Prairies, along with the Princess’s, and a few other models, were caught up in a factory issue. It was reported on another thread that someone was talking to SK at the launch and that he said a factory had closed or was having major issues or something along those lines. This was the reason for the delay. 

 

[Neal Ball]

Ah didn't realise a factory had closed.

 

When I last spoke to SK at the GDSF in August they were on line for end Dec at latest with an outside possibility of January.

 

I'm sure once they arrive they will be great.

[The Johnster]

This is similar to one of the delays that have affected the Bachmann 94xx, and to be fair to Hornby there is little they can do about it except to inform us of the situation, which may be an ongoing and developing one they are not yet fully aware of.  We think of China as having a booming economy and growth is exponential there, but they do not have a bottomless pit of resources or capital and the loss of a factory for whatever reason will have a knock on effect.  It's a particular shame that the affected loco will be compared to the very quick and efficient release of the bow-ended suburbans it's meant to pull...

[Neal Ball]

Looking at the Hornby website, all of the Prairies are now showing a delivery date of Spring 2020. Clearly they are not yet on the boat...... A while back when the BR versions were due December, that was reflected on the Hornby website.

 

At the end of the day, they were only announced this time last year, so still not bad going.

 

I do wonder if there are other issues. Hornby are still using their original image rather than any of the pre production models.

[Legend]

Aren’t we coming up to Chinese New Year?  Hope they make it out ahead of that

[Neal Ball]

1 minute ago, Legend said:

Aren’t we coming up to Chinese New Year?  Hope they make it out ahead of that

Yes it’s in 2 weeks: Sat 25th January. Factories shut down around that time - is it a week? Some factories then struggle to get staff back at their desks afterwards.