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Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie


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17 hours ago, melmerby said:

I always remember ex GWR paintshop jobs always looked brighter/richer than ex LMS paintshop jobs using what was supposed to be the same BS colour.


Indeed, and the recent green on ex-GWR locos has been flat and lifeless, irrespective of the actual colour. My personal preference is the BR green used by Hornby on its recent rebuilt BB R3468 603 Squadron.

 

3 hours ago, Tim Hall said:

But which blue?

IMG_2400.JPG


Not the Dapol D63xx for sure. To my eye in that photo the Kernow D600 looks closest to what I visualise.

Edited by brushman47544
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4 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Ideally a photo of it alongside other BR green locos is what is needed

Hmm.  You'd think so, but the way the hooman eye works and the hooman brane interprets the information means that a large 'block' of colour on something big such as a locomotive viewed from within 100yds range will look brighter than the exact same colour with the exact same finish in the exact same lighting on a model unless the model is viewed from within abut 3 inches.  I believe it was David Jenkinson who pointed this out in regard to LMS crimson lake livery in MRC many years ago; he'd got some enamel paint mixed to the exact specification as provided by Derby works, used it on a model, and realised that it looked completely wrong, and David Jenkinson was someone who knew what crimson lake was supposed to look like.  

 

There is a point beyond which attempting to pin exact colours down even with calibrated camera and monitor settings on professional grade equipment, unless your hooman eye is calibrated in the exact same format.  My view is that that close enough for jazz is fine and I am happy to repaint locos or stock to my own specifications, especially unlined ones, and to weather them as well, until I get the look I want.  I do not subscribe to the view that 'this should not be necessary on a £xxx model' and while I accept that it will affect the resale value of my stock I do not buy models to resell them, though I will give them away to good homes.  I am not trying to state a fact that such a view is wrong, merely that I do not subscribe to it!  RTR models are very good indeed these days but I can improve them; nothing on Cwmdimbath is as it came out of the box, and all have been worked up in some way even if it is only a light wash of weathering.  It is a model of a working railway, not a model of a railway museum.

 

That said, of course I want my RTR to be as accurate as possible, including the colour, but I'm certainly not going to criticise Hornby's new prairie in this respect; the liveries look fine to me.  If I were to comment it would be that some of the brass plumbing is a bit prominent and needs toning down or replacing with real brass which will tarnish naturally over time.

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4 hours ago, brushman47544 said:


Indeed, and the recent green on ex-GWR locos has been flat and lifeless, irrespective of the actual colour. My personal preference is the BR green used by Hornby on its recent rebuilt BB R3468 603 Squadron.

 


Not the Dapol D63xx for sure. To my eye in that photo the Kernow D600 looks closest to what I visualise.

I've since repainted the 63xx, cos it stood out like the proverbial sore thumb. It's actually a Silver Fox D600, that I sold when the Kernow one came out (it's quite an old photograph). 

 

But we'd better stop, as we're off topic here :)

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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Hmm.  You'd think so, but the way the hooman eye works and the hooman brane interprets the information means that a large 'block' of colour on something big such as a locomotive viewed from within 100yds range will look brighter than the exact same colour with the exact same finish in the exact same lighting on a model unless the model is viewed from within abut 3 inches.  

I meant with other model BR green locos - yes colours change with size; a good example of this is how dark an individual piece of roof sheeting can look yet how much lighter the whole roof appears. There was a whole series in one of the magazines many years ago (might have been in Scale Trains) on translating colours to models. 

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My 4160 arrived this lunchtime. I've test-run it and fitted a decoder (my preferred one, the DCCC ZN8D wouldn't fit because it is too thick so I went for a ZN8H). It looks like I've got a fair amount of work to do to stop it falling off the track and to make it a bit heavier, and so on.

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So I ventured  down to my local emporioum on Saturday afternoon to get a look at the green. I have some pretty poor photo's (but then it was tucked in a dark corner of the cabinet) but I would say it is pretty much the same shade as recent BR Castles. Thankfully the lining is orange and black rather than the tangerine shade used on 46211 - I tried to tempt myself with the latter but the lining really is jarring in my opinion  and the green is flat and too 'sage' for my eyes. I would say the Prairie is a better match for recent Hornby BR green loco's than 46211 if that helps.

 

How  two models come out at the same time from the same manufacturer with such obviously different interpretations of the same livery is a mystery to me. 

 

Will post pictures anyone wants to see them but I stress they are awful both for lighting and being through a glass  cabinet with reflections!

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3 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

How  two models come out at the same time from the same manufacturer with such obviously different interpretations of the same livery is a mystery to me. 

 

Manufactured in different factories with different paint suppliers maybe.

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14 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Manufactured in different factories with different paint suppliers maybe.

  
Indeed they are. I posted on this a while back,remarking on the difference in overall finish between the Prairie and the Lizzie.IMHO quite a quality gap.

 

And yet I am forgetting that the same factory that turns out acceptable red and blue also presents us with it seems the familiar Hornby green.Odd indeed.

Edited by Ian Hargrave
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2 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Manufactured in different factories with different paint suppliers maybe.

But surely the colours have a specification  - discussions on this forum suggest there is actually a defined palette that industry selects from. I can understand Hornby might pick a different colour from the palette to Bachmann but not that Hornby specify different shades to different manufacturers. 

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45 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

But surely the colours have a specification  - discussions on this forum suggest there is actually a defined palette that industry selects from. I can understand Hornby might pick a different colour from the palette to Bachmann but not that Hornby specify different shades to different manufacturers. 

Well there's what you specify, which may or may not mean anything to the supplier on the other side of the planet, then there's what actually turns up, and how you verify it meets your specification (via a third party i.e. the actual  model manufacturer). There are other variables like the base colour of the plastic, level of gloss, colour temperature of the light used to view the model etc.

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19 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

But surely the colours have a specification  - discussions on this forum suggest there is actually a defined palette that industry selects from. I can understand Hornby might pick a different colour from the palette to Bachmann but not that Hornby specify different shades to different manufacturers. 

But even BR varied, so nothing new.

 

Pheonix do this as BR Green:

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/p101

 

BR Green is supposed to be this:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381C 224&cDescription=Deep bronze green

 

Which looks nothing like any loco green I have seen!

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Go back a few years to the release of the newly tooled Hornby King.Mainstream versions were dull,pale and drab. Then Locomotion launched their KGV ......with a gloss varnish finish which brought the whole model to life. But is it really necessary to consider this as the magic bullet if competitor Bachmann manage acceptable green finish without it ? 

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6 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Go back a few years to the release of the newly tooled Hornby King.Mainstream versions were dull,pale and drab. Then Locomotion launched their KGV ......with a gloss varnish finish which brought the whole model to life. But is it really necessary to consider this as the magic bullet if competitor Bachmann manage acceptable green finish without it ? 

 

What I find odd is that, as you say Bachmann's loco green is far better than recent Hornby efforts, yet on coaches Bachmann's BR(S) green is far too dark whereas Hornby's is pretty much spot on.

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15 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Go back a few years to the release of the newly tooled Hornby King.Mainstream versions were dull,pale and drab. Then Locomotion launched their KGV ......with a gloss varnish finish which brought the whole model to life. But is it really necessary to consider this as the magic bullet if competitor Bachmann manage acceptable green finish without it ? 

Precisely. Far by it from me to suggest industrial espionage but just take any Bachmann BR green loco from the past 10 years to your manufacturer(s) in China and say 'it needs to be this colour and this level of sheen please'. Simples!!

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8 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Precisely. Far by it from me to suggest industrial espionage but just take any Bachmann BR green loco from the past 10 years to your manufacturer(s) in China and say 'it needs to be this colour and this level of sheen please'. Simples!!

When viewed under lighting of a specific colour temperature by somebody with " perfect" colour vision. not so simples

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13 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

When viewed under lighting of a specific colour temperature by somebody with " perfect" colour vision. not so simples

I'm thinking these things are scanned digitally rather than colour mix by human eyeball. I'm going back to 'simples'!

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8 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I'm thinking these things are scanned digitally rather than colour mix by human eyeball. I'm going back to 'simples'!

But this requires not only the colour to be correct in the first place, but the scanner needs to be calibrated for it, and then every monitor on every computer or smartphone involved in the process of transferring the colour from the original scan, assuming that to be accurate which is by no means a given, to the final production of the model and the colour of the plastic.  I'm going back to 'not so simples'.  

 

There's a lot more to this colour business than meets the eye, if you see what I mean, and as I said trying to pin exact colours down is a bit like chasing the foo foo bird...

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Got my BR lined green one from Derails yesterday. The green is slightly darker and probably slightly bluer than my Bachmann 45xx in the same livery (the colour of which I'm happy with) in natural daylight.  it's the lining that's quite different though. The black lines are far more prominent and the orange barely visible on the 61xx compared to the 45xx.  I suspect the reality with the linings is that both are slightly overscale anyway.

I'll post some snaps later.

 

If anyone wants more information about assessing colour and colour differences, I was a colourmatcher in the plastics industry for over 10 years, for much of it supplying engineering thermoplastics into the highly demanding automotive sector to very tight colour tolerances. One simply did not go to Ford Berlin to present your latest matches to Frau Pfister without having done a selection of very good matches for her to choose from. All you had to do then was reproduce the lab sample in production :blink:.

 

 

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On 11/09/2020 at 19:30, melmerby said:

 

I always remember ex GWR paintshop jobs always looked brighter/richer than ex LMS paintshop jobs using what was supposed to be the same BS colour

Crewe and Swindon used different primer and undercoat IIRC. The brass and copper trimmings and amount of lining also change the perception and then there is the frequency and degree of enthusiasm applied to cleaning.

Add to that the effect of age on the varnish. For example what is the correct colour of a green Southern coach, given that it could be freshly painted then before the next scheduled full repaint 10 years later it would have a retouch and revarnish up to three times. 

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18 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Go back a few years to the release of the newly tooled Hornby King.Mainstream versions were dull,pale and drab. Then Locomotion launched their KGV ......with a gloss varnish finish which brought the whole model to life. But is it really necessary to consider this as the magic bullet if competitor Bachmann manage acceptable green finish without it ? 

The gloss did rescue the King and they looked magnificent. Having said that, I don’t think I like the idea of all my models being gloss. I’m not qualified to judge the authenticity of grouping-era liveries but I do find the Bachmann finishes very appealing.

 

Going back to Hornby’s original eight-coupled GWR tank locomotives, I found the finish very disappointing. Now, however, I seem to have got used to it, whilst at the same time not being wildly enthusiastic. An awful lot depends on what one looks for. There is a photograph of 4283 (I think – the book is hiding somewhere) in Brian Haresnape’s book on Great Western liveries. What struck me most as lacking from the model was the waviness of the tank sides and the nuts holding the motion in place, neither of which attracted particular ire from modellers who focused on other features.

 

It is very strange that Hornby seems to have succeeded with LMS red, LNER green and even BR express blue but just cannot seem to master dark greens. The new GWR Prairies are by no means bad but are not as pleasing as the Bachmann shade.

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Taken today indoors but in strong natural light using a DSLR.

The green looks quite acceptable to me, although quite a matt finish as usual these days.

 

 

IMG_0233.JPG

Edited by PMP99
corrected spelling
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Possibly of interest is this comparative shot of a new Hornby Large Prairie (4154) and a Bachmann Hall (4920 Dumbleton Hall), both in late GWR green. In the background (in case anyone is curious) is Heljan’s  47XX (4705).

 

 

Prairie & Hall 2.jpg

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2 hours ago, PMP99 said:

One from the other side.

 

IMG_0242.JPG

Thanks for those PMP - allowing for the effects of lighting, camera, and computer monitor, it looks pretty good to me. I shall find out more once mine has reached Alton and I'm able to collect it but judging by your two photos I'm unlikely to be disapointed by the colour.

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