Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[MatthewCarty]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Re 5189, large Prairies usually had large crests, not small ones. There is a small window at the end of February 1957 where an early crest could have been applied to a lined loco, but I have not seen any photographic evidence of it. It is also possible that Hornby's artwork doesn't represent what is being sold. I suggest you challenge Hornby.

 

I have seen pictures of 6109 lined out with the small one so it definitely happened (see colourrail.co.uk for a couple of examples), but can't find any picture of 5189 at all (interestingly 5199 was outshopped like this unprototypically after restoration). Usually Hornby have been very good at basing the detail differences and livery details off examples so don't feel a need to challenge Hornby unless others have evidence to suggest it didn't happen. A more useful combination might have been unlined green late logo but maybe that's one Dapol can before Hornby!

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting stuff here.  5189 in line green with small crest is illustrated in the relevant volume of the Irwell series covering the prairies.  

 

The big question surrounds 6147 which is also shown in that series as it was ex-works at Swindon in 1964 and the text states it was in black. but the back of the bunker - in a monochrome picture - looks to me to be a lighter shade than black although it is difficult to reach any judgement about the colour of the cab and side tanks. However Wikipedia, of all things, comes to our aid as it has a colour picture of the engine taken at Swindon ex-works in that month and it is veryt clearly in 'economy' green livery.  And - again what a source  -there is another picture of it on the dreaded Pinterest  probably taken on the same date but from a different angle and again very clearly in 'economy' green.

 

So alas Mr Irwell got it wrong, presumably from working off a monochrome photo, and it looks like Hornby didn't bother to do a wider check when looking for a black 61XX.  Of all the prairies I reckon they would have been the least likely to get a coat of black in second emblem times.  And by 1964 Swindon probably had considerable stocks of green paint because their budgetted overhaul work for the year greatly exceeded what the R&M Dept actually intended to offer them for shopping (according to the chap who presented them with the R&M Dept shopping programme).  One thing which we can rely on fairly well is that the engine only lasted in traffic for c.18 months after that works visit.   best thing fplks could do with it is a renumbering job or a change to early emblem.

 

 

[MatthewCarty]

39 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting stuff here.  5189 in line green with small crest is illustrated in the relevant volume of the Irwell series covering the prairies.  

 

The big question surrounds 6147 which is also shown in that series as it was ex-works at Swindon in 1964 and the text states it was in black. but the back of the bunker - in a monochrome picture - looks to me to be a lighter shade than black although it is difficult to reach any judgement about the colour of the cab and side tanks. However Wikipedia, of all things, comes to our aid as it has a colour picture of the engine taken at Swindon ex-works in that month and it is veryt clearly in 'economy' green livery.  And - again what a source  -there is another picture of it on the dreaded Pinterest  probably taken on the same date but from a different angle and again very clearly in 'economy' green.

 

So alas Mr Irwell got it wrong, presumably from working off a monochrome photo, and it looks like Hornby didn't bother to do a wider check when looking for a black 61XX.  Of all the prairies I reckon they would have been the least likely to get a coat of black in second emblem times.  And by 1964 Swindon probably had considerable stocks of green paint because their budgetted overhaul work for the year greatly exceeded what the R&M Dept actually intended to offer them for shopping (according to the chap who presented them with the R&M Dept shopping programme).  One thing which we can rely on fairly well is that the engine only lasted in traffic for c.18 months after that works visit.   best thing fplks could do with it is a renumbering job or a change to early emblem.

 

 

There are however two pictures claiming to be of a black 6147 on colourrail.co.uk. One 3rd May 1958 which is clearly black but with no emblem visible, the second at Paddington (no date) but clearly in black with a late crest. (Also another couple at Swindon showing the April 64 green paint)

Edited January 6, 2021 by MatthewCarty

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

5189 in line green with small crest is illustrated in the relevant volume of the Irwell series covering the prairies.

 

Thanks Mike. Maybe some older crests were being used up at the time. Is the picture dated?

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 06/01/2021 at 19:28, Miss Prism said:

 

Thanks Mike. Maybe some older crests were being used up at the time. Is the picture dated?

 

I'm not sure without delving it out again a but i think it was a Mike Mensing picture so if it carries a date it is probably about as reliable as you can get.    Oddities like this seem to have happened quite a lot during livery transitions although it is the only lined green prairie with a small emblem I have ever seen a photo of.

 

Incidentally I do wonder about the colour of 6147 because having looked at the catalogue illustration (for what it's worth)it appears to be in green although it is very dark image.  6145 is definitely being offered in black but it is a full digital version.

[MatthewCarty]

On 10/01/2021 at 13:39, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally I do wonder about the colour of 6147 because having looked at the catalogue illustration (for what it's worth)it appears to be in green although it is very dark image.  6145 is definitely being offered in black but it is a full digital version.

Are you talking about the colour rail image of 6147? If so, having just bought a copy to download it is definitely in green (in fact lined green!) despite my earlier thoughts, unfortunately I think this means Hornby are much more likely to be wrong with their black, and I will probably write to ask.

 

I have also just found the reference to 6147 being black on 26th April 1964 in The Prairie Papers and as you say the bunker is the only real clue to the true colour, and this combined with another image which on first appearances can be taken as black, and this is probably a fairly easy error to make.

Edited January 14, 2021 by MatthewCarty

[Miss Prism]

26 April 1964, apparently:

 

[MatthewCarty]

I have emailed Hornby, and have also found another image of 5189 on Pinterest. Don't know if it's the same one as Irwell as I seem to have mislaid that volume of the Prairie papers, but interestingly it seems quite a few of the large prairies managed to get the small emblem.

5189 Class 51XX 2-6-2T | Train route, British rail, Steam railway (pinterest.co.uk)

[MatthewCarty]

The more you look the more you find!

Two photos for sale on ebay show 6147 in lined green at Oxford Station:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/pu2442-Oxfordshire-Engine-No-6147-at-Oxford-Station-photograph-6x4/392694737424?hash=item5b6e6e2a10:g:gTsAAOSwkGJcbDrV

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/pu2441-Oxfordshire-Engine-No-6147-at-Oxford-Station-photograph-6x4/293485387951?hash=item445517a0af:g:RV0AAOSwGMFcbDrV

 

Also possible the same one as Miss Prism's above, but the view of 6147's bunker at Swindon:

www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/2970921073

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

26 April 1964, apparently:

 

 

Early afteronn.

 

[MatthewCarty]

It would appear the email I sent with links to multiple photos did get passed on to the development team, and the website page for R3850 would appear to have been duly updated with a picture of 6147 in green! Full credit to Hornby for listening and adjusting accordingly.

 

Website appears to be running very slowly at present due to a big design update...

[derekc]

It may have been asked already but I couldn’t see an answer but the dcc fitted 4160 from Hornby seems to be missing.  It is on the Hornby website as out of stock.  Have Hornby quietly dropped this model?

Edited January 22, 2021 by derekc
Spelling

[brushman47544]

 

On 14/01/2021 at 11:22, Miss Prism said:

26 April 1964, apparently:

 

 

Looking at the Hornby website today BR (Late) Black Class 61XX No. 6147 (Hornby.com) the image has been changed and now clearly shows the model in unlined BR green as in the photo above. The text still says black but presumably Hornby has officially changed the livery to be produced. 

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

 

 

Looking at the Hornby website today BR (Late) Black Class 61XX No. 6147 (Hornby.com) the image has been changed and now clearly shows the model in unlined BR green as in the photo above. The text still says black but presumably Hornby has officially changed the livery to be produced. 

See MatthewCartys post 2 above yours Jan 22. 

[Covkid]

On 22/01/2021 at 17:53, derekc said:

It may have been asked already but I couldn’t see an answer but the dcc fitted 4160 from Hornby seems to be missing.  It is on the Hornby website as out of stock.  Have Hornby quietly dropped this model?

The Cat No s for these are R3725 and R3725X

R3725 is definitely available but not sure if the DCC version has been released yet.  

[melmerby]

34 minutes ago, Covkid said:

The Cat No s for these are R3725 and R3725X

R3725 is definitely available but not sure if the DCC version has been released yet.  

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-class-5101-large-prairie-2-6-2t-4160-era-5-r3725x

[Dan Hamblin]

Has anyone experienced issues with the TV interference suppression diode on their models? On my Prairie the diode appears to have touched the motor case and now it gets extremely hot, smokes occasionally and has a crack in it. The loco starts to run and if taken over a certain speed suddenly stops.

 

Is the quickest fix simply to remove the diode? Any help greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Dan

[melmerby]

14 minutes ago, Dan Hamblin said:

Has anyone experienced issues with the TV interference suppression diode on their models? On my Prairie the diode appears to have touched the motor case and now it gets extremely hot, smokes occasionally and has a crack in it. The loco starts to run and if taken over a certain speed suddenly stops.

 

Is the quickest fix simply to remove the diode? Any help greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Dan

There shouldn't be a diode.

Capacitors & inductor are normal suppression components

[Dan Hamblin]

 

 

Thanks Keith, apologies but my specialism is mechanical engineering and electronics isn't a strong subject.

 

It's circular, fairly flat and connected to both sides of the motor, with '104' printed on one side. In PMP's photo (below) it is the light brown coloured item above the flywheel, only on my loco it is now black.

 

On 04/07/2020 at 15:29, PMP said:

What’s really interesting is that the bogies don’t have a piece of metal for a spring.

 

 

Yes under the bunker is large enough for a speaker. If you fit a sugar cube under the chimney, you’ll likely need to cut the chassis down to fit it, and then find space somewhere else for a chip.

 

Re Kadee couplers, I wouldn’t expect a UK company to design for them, apart from providing an NEM socket.

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Dan

[melmerby]

Hi Dan

That's a capacitor and can safely be disposed of, complete with the ferrite sleeve through which the wires go.

Cut it cleanly by the motor terminals. Do not cut any other wires.

 

Electronics lesson of the day

104 means a value in picofarads (pF) of 10 and four zeros (100000) e.g. 100,000pF or more commonly 100 nanofarads (100nF)

Edited March 27, 2021 by melmerby
Correct first time

[Dan Hamblin]

Thanks Keith, that fixed it and all running smoothly again. A lot wiser on capacitors as well 

 

Regards,

 

Dan

[No Decorum]

I have added Fox bunker side numberplates to my “GWR” 4154 and very nice they look. Whilst Hornby has done a good job on the printing, the three-dimensional brass plates are a definite improvement. Fox hasn’t 6110 plates in the range to similarly upgrade my “Great Western” prairie so I asked Fox about them. In case anyone else is interested, they will be added to the next production run.

 

It could be as much as six months.

Edited April 27, 2021 by No Decorum
To add the time until they are available.

[Hilux5972]

Resurrecting an old thread here but question. Has anyone had issues with the front pony truck screw? The screw keeps working loose on mine because it seems the problem is either (or both) the thickness of the pivot point on the pony truck where screw goes through is too thick and/or the spigot the pony truck rotates around is slightly too short to be able to do the screw up tight. Am I alone in this?

[PMP]

11 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Resurrecting an old thread here but question. Has anyone had issues with the front pony truck screw? The screw keeps working loose on mine because it seems the problem is either (or both) the thickness of the pivot point on the pony truck where screw goes through is too thick and/or the spigot the pony truck rotates around is slightly too short to be able to do the screw up tight. Am I alone in this?

No problems with mine, a useful dodge with screws behaving like that is to use a dab of PVA glue on the thread, it’ll set but not enough that you can’t undo the screw or damage it in the future 

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Resurrecting an old thread here but question. Has anyone had issues with the front pony truck screw? The screw keeps working loose on mine because it seems the problem is either (or both) the thickness of the pivot point on the pony truck where screw goes through is too thick and/or the spigot the pony truck rotates around is slightly too short to be able to do the screw up tight. Am I alone in this?

No you're not.

 

I used a slightly longer M2 screw with a washer under the head, to allow some vertical movement.