Hornby - New tooling - LMS Princess class

[Brocp]

Both "British Pacific Locomotives" by C.J. Allen and "Loco Profile #37 - LMS Pacifics" say that 6205 got the modified valvegear arrangement in 1938.

6205 definently got them pre war.

 

Also interesting read on the Hornby Engine Shed regarding 3 tooling of tenders being drawn up. Hopefully we'll never have to see the ledge tender ever again.

[sandwich station]

Both "British Pacific Locomotives" by C.J. Allen and "Loco Profile #37 - LMS Pacifics" say that 6205 got the modified valvegear arrangement in 1938.

 

 

6205 definently got them pre war.

 

Also interesting read on the Hornby Engine Shed regarding 3 tooling of tenders being drawn up. Hopefully we'll never have to see the ledge tender ever again.

 

I've just looked in my The Book Of The Princess Royal Pacifics by Ian Sixsmith and it says 1938 in there. There is also pictures of her running in 1958 and 1961 with the unique arrangement, so I'm not sure where they got their information on that website from.

[farren]

46205 modified valvegear stated by Wikipedia 1947! I have only one thing to say. . Never believe Wikipedia!!

[sandwich station]

46205 modified valvegear stated by Wikipedia 1947! I have only one thing to say. . Never believe Wikipedia!!

 

It wasn't Wikipedia I got it from, it was a site called preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com

[Brocp]

It wasn't Wikipedia I got it from, it was a site called preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com

Maybe they got it from Wikipedia? But in all seriousness plenty of the best books have gotten things wrong before. Even the LMS loco profile series has been wrong from time to time.

[robmcg]

With the newly-tooled Princesses having a lot of excellent details, I am greatly impressed!  6200-1 valve gear support differences, and the drawings look like bevelled front bogie wheels, which would be fantastic!

 

 

6201 in 1936 condition when it did that phenomenal Euston-Glasgow run non-stop in 5hrs 43 mins (I think) averaging 68.2mph with driver Tom Clark of Crewe who later received an O.B.E. I think that run is an all-time record for long non-stop high speed with steam. I stand to be corrected.

 

Inspiring stuff, Boy's Own and all that.   

 

I created this below with domed boiler and what I think is very approximately right, bevelled wheel rims etc.,10-ton tender, what a fine model this will be. Bravo Hornby!

 

 

picture created with PSP6 editing, public domain prototype pics and a bit of artistic guesswork, will remove if required. Based on old-tooling model.

 

I think Hornby are truly reaching new heights. I am VERY impressed given the stick they receive  sometimes from me. 

 

cheers

Edited January 14, 2019 by robmcg

[1BCamden]

Not wanting to sound negative, but the standout item which time stamps each class member is the tender type.

As previously highlighted, this class as built, and throughout its life experienced numerous alterations, and yes the boiler is important, but doesn’t come close to the tender as instantly providing the date, which hopefully Hornby will provide a map, so we all don’t rush out and buy the 10t tender, only later to find that a 9t example is coming next year.

[G-BOAF]

Not wanting to sound negative, but the standout item which time stamps each class member is the tender type.

As previously highlighted, this class as built, and throughout its life experienced numerous alterations, and yes the boiler is important, but doesn’t come close to the tender as instantly providing the date, which hopefully Hornby will provide a map, so we all don’t rush out and buy the 10t tender, only later to find that a 9t example is coming next year.

isn't that exactly what Hornby want - you run out and buy one version (to have the brand new model), and then run out and buy the version you need next year. This is why slightly oddball models are often released first, with mainstream/more widely applicable versions coming later. Look how long it took to produce a single chimney, late creat Castle Class. And still waiting for a 'bog standard' Maroon destreamlined BR Duchess!

[Brocp]

Not wanting to sound negative, but the standout item which time stamps each class member is the tender type.

As previously highlighted, this class as built, and throughout its life experienced numerous alterations, and yes the boiler is important, but doesn’t come close to the tender as instantly providing the date, which hopefully Hornby will provide a map, so we all don’t rush out and buy the 10t tender, only later to find that a 9t example is coming next year.

The Engine Shed says they are tooling the 9T tender, two types as well, https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/Hornby-2019-range

[robmcg]

Further to the marvellous announcement by Hornby of new Princess engines, with variations, I found myself wondering just how good the details will be.

 

The drawings in the ads show all kinds of excellent detail, and we know that two type of motion support bracket and three types of tender are being offered, presumably the header style domeless boiler will be also on some models  eventually.

 

Here is the Hornby ad.

 

 

I took a photo of old-tooling LMS 6204 'Princess Louise' which had the header type boiler from new until about 1940 or later, and have added wheels re-sized slightly from a current Duchess, with bevelled rims, and used a smokebox front and trailing truck from a prototype photo, and came up with what might well be Hornby's absolutely best ever. 6204 had a 10-ton tender after 1937 but I wouldn't know the visual differences with a 9-ton version, the one in the pic is a Hornby version from the old tooling. Perhaps the 10-ton version has a longer coal bunker? If so the one in the pics is close.  

 

Liberties taken with editing but the likelihood is in my opinion that the new model will not be far off this.

 

 

Will remove if it offends.

Edited January 19, 2019 by robmcg

[1BCamden]

Hornby.com has slipped the release date to Q4 (winter) 2020.

Which in my mind is no big deal, we have waited this long.  Just hoping Simon gets it right, and of course he will, we are counting on it.

Edited July 16, 2019 by 1BCamden

[Black 5 Bear]

2 hours ago, 1BCamden said:

Hornby.com has slipped the release date to Q4 (winter) 2020.

Which in my mind is no big deal, we have waited this long.  Just hoping Simon gets it right, and of course he will, we are counting on it.

I'm somewhat confused about this release date.

I contacted Hornby a few weeks back when the release date slipped back and was told that Winter 2020 was probably January or February of that year rather than November/December.

Many retailers including Hattons are quoting February for these locos.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Black 5 Bear
Mistakes

[1BCamden]

You are probably correct, my recollection of a British winter was November-December, but I guess January-February is still winter, and a February 2020 release is far better than December 2020. Better start getting those pre orders in. Thanks for the correction for those out in the colonies, we rely on you guys so much.

Edited July 17, 2019 by 1BCamden

[Pete the Elaner]

I don't usually think of winter as the end of the year.

The media bombards us with all this stuff about snow at Christmas but it rarely happens.

Jan & Feb are usually the coldest months, so hopefully this is what Hornby meant by Winter 2020.

 

It seems to be common within the hobby that release dates slide & Hornby have done this as far back as I can remember, so I would not be surprised if it is Q4 before we actually see it.

I agree with your view that I am happy to wait for a really good model than have one rushed out with errors they are aware of.

[Black 5 Bear]

Hornby website now gives expected delivery for the Princess class as Autumn 19. 

Maybe we'll have more information about these releases in Friday's Engine Shed.

[Flying Pig]

On 24/07/2019 at 22:53, Black 5 Bear said:

Hornby website now gives expected delivery for the Princess class as Autumn 19. 

Maybe we'll have more information about these releases in Friday's Engine Shed.

 

Well it's there but a long way from production.

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Well it's there but a long way from production.

Have a look at the Engine Shed thread and accompanying conversation.

[robmcg]

It has just occurred to me that some of the tenders for the upcoming models will be very similar to the tender tooled-up about a year ago for 46256 Sir William Stanier F R S    without a coal-pusher?  but riveted and lower front than most Duchesses.

 

Just a thought. It must save time to already have the tooling?

 

But then the pics in the Engine Shed show a finished BR green tender body with higher front shape and what looks to me like a coal pusher, which the Princesses had? And it is welded ...  so what would I know.

 

I do hope Hornby get this right though, they've been good with Duchess models.  Maybe they just picked up any older tender body lying around?  I must check my Irwell book!  

 

 

cheers

 

edit; 46206 was the only one with a coal-pusher,  and most or all ? were riveted tenders...

Edited August 11, 2019 by robmcg

[MGR Hooper!]

3 hours ago, robmcg said:

It has just occurred to me that some of the tenders for the upcoming models will be very similar to the tender tooled-up about a year ago for 46256 Sir William Stanier F R S    without a coal-pusher?  but riveted and lower front than most Duchesses.

 

Just a thought. It must save time to already have the tooling?

 

But then the pics in the Engine Shed show a finished BR green tender body with higher front shape and what looks to me like a coal pusher, which the Princesses had? And it is welded ...  so what would I know.

 

I do hope Hornby get this right though, they've been good with Duchess models.  Maybe they just picked up any older tender body lying around?  I must check my Irwell book!  

 

 

cheers

 

edit; 46206 was the only one with a coal-pusher,  and most or all ? were riveted tenders...

 

Hornby never shares tooling between locomotives even if they have the same tender or parts. They always make a new set of tools.

 

Sharing tooling doesn't save money. Because shared tools wear out faster and you need to spend more money re-tooling them.

 

As for what you see on TES, it's quite obvious from the picture that they've used a tender from a Duchess as it is similar and something they have lying around.

 

A quick message to Paul Isles with you doubts can clarify them.

[robmcg]

12 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

Hornby never shares tooling between locomotives even if they have the same tender or parts. They always make a new set of tools.

 

Sharing tooling doesn't save money. Because shared tools wear out faster and you need to spend more money re-tooling them.

 

As for what you see on TES, it's quite obvious from the picture that they've used a tender from a Duchess as it is similar and something they have lying around.

 

A quick message to Paul Isles with you doubts can clarify them.

 

Yes that makes sense, unless the tools are under-utilised and in the same factory.   I agree they used a Duchess tender body, as it's early days.  I was in no way trying to criticise anyone.

[JSpencer]

On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 09:01, MGR Hooper! said:

 

Hornby never shares tooling between locomotives even if they have the same tender or parts. They always make a new set of tools.

 

Sharing tooling doesn't save money. Because shared tools wear out faster and you need to spend more money re-tooling them.

 

As for what you see on TES, it's quite obvious from the picture that they've used a tender from a Duchess as it is similar and something they have lying around.

 

A quick message to Paul Isles with you doubts can clarify them.

 

It is not always true. For example when a loco has three possible tenders that it shares with other loco classes, then Hornby keeps them in the same factory and they share tenders.

 

The Nelson & S15 can share tenders, there are 3 types between them. It would have been worth tooling up the S15 Maunsell flat sided tender twice for use on the early Lord Nelson class.

(Maybe the N15 does as well as the Urie type are identical between the S15 and N15, except for the S15 model using a new running plate, draw bar and having fittings for sound gubbins. I've no idea if the next N15 release still uses the old electrical wiper drawbar and brass pin or if was upgraded to the new DCC sound ready standard of the S15).

 

Another case are the T9 (3 types of tender) and black motor (2 types) sharing tenders as well. The West Country class in original and rebuilt forms seem to share 4 tender types between them also.

 

[MGR Hooper!]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

It is not always true. For example when a loco has three possible tenders that it shares with other loco classes, then Hornby keeps them in the same factory and they share tenders.

 

The Nelson & S15 can share tenders, there are 3 types between them. It would have been worth tooling up the S15 Maunsell flat sided tender twice for use on the early Lord Nelson class.

(Maybe the N15 does as well as the Urie type are identical between the S15 and N15, except for the S15 model using a new running plate, draw bar and having fittings for sound gubbins. I've no idea if the next N15 release still uses the old electrical wiper drawbar and brass pin or if was upgraded to the new DCC sound ready standard of the S15).

 

Another case are the T9 (3 types of tender) and black motor (2 types) sharing tenders as well. The West Country class in original and rebuilt forms seem to share 4 tender types between them also.

 

 

I've shared information which I've got straight from the horse's mouth. In many of their blogs and so on Hornby have stated that even if they have two different locomotives that use the same tender(s) they still go ahead and make a new set of tools to go along with the new locomotive.

 

So if the Princess and Duchess have 2-3 tenders that are similar, Hornby will still make a set for the Princess and another set for the Duchess. This is done just incase production shifts around. 

 

That's what I've been told by Mr. Hornby himself and that's what's been posted publicly by Hornby in a few blogs.

 

Whether that's strictly followed or not, I have no idea....

[Big James]

I remember reading that they’ve reused cads before for tenders. But they’ve never used the tooling as many are bundled up with the whole set of tools. 

 

Big james 

[MikeParkin65]

4 hours ago, Big James said:

I remember reading that they’ve reused cads before for tenders. But they’ve never used the tooling as many are bundled up with the whole set of tools. 

 

Big james 

This might be true of more recent models but older models certainly share tenders - Scot/Patriot/ Class 5/ Class 8 for example.  

[Buhar]

I suspect managing sets of tools at long-range and maybe in different factories makes re-using items more trouble than it's worth.  It's also possible that the tools being set up to take modifications makes their life-expectancy shorter.

 

Wouldn't it be good if the Stanier 4000 gal tender had been new tooling somewhere along the line and that mythical valance might have disappeared.