Hornby - New tooling - LMS Princess class

[Ian Hargrave]

9 hours ago, No Decorum said:

They must have looked wonderful, especially with blood and custard coaches. From the photographs, which seem to be of the actual models, the blue looks better than that on King Richard II. Closer to that on preserved locomotives, assuming that the preservationists have it right.

When mine arrives,courtesy of Little Dan & Derails hopefully shortly,I will post my opinion of the paint job. But with regard to my own first impression of the prototype ( August 1952 ) the blood & custard livery aesthetic impression was marred by the motley collection of WR coaches in that livery making up a typical North to West express of the day..I.e. Colletts,Toplights etc.with the odd Stanier thrown in. Liquorice Allsorts with portions from everywhere north of Crewe to everywhere west of Bristol.They consequently were heavy trains which required heavy haulage. Sometimes,the Stanier Pacifics were seen trundling 3 non corridors on local work on running in turns too.

 

 

[No Decorum]

I found two silly shortcomings with my Ivatt Duchess. A crossbar fouled the flanges of the replacement trailing wheels and (notoriously) the drawbar could not be used on the closer setting because it fouled the chassis. It was easy to file slots for the flanges and knock up a replacement drawbar but I’m curious to know if these matters have been corrected in the new Princesses. If they have, it would save a little trouble and show that Hornby is at least awake!

[apollanaut]

26 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I found two silly shortcomings with my Ivatt Duchess. A crossbar fouled the flanges of the replacement trailing wheels and (notoriously) the drawbar could not be used on the closer setting because it fouled the chassis. It was easy to file slots for the flanges and knock up a replacement drawbar but I’m curious to know if these matters have been corrected in the new Princesses. If they have, it would save a little trouble and show that Hornby is at least awake!

 

I haven't yet tried the replacement trailing wheels, but the closer drawbar setting worked fine on my layout. My main line circuit has 33 1/4 inch curves and the closer setting made a big difference to the appearance of the Princess. The drop plate in particular sat on top of the loco-tender gap just like the real thing.

 

I only had limited time to take photos and they didn't come out very well, but I will try to take some decent shots next time I visit the property where my layout is housed.

Edited March 8, 2020 by apollanaut

[robmcg]

On 08/03/2020 at 18:11, robmcg said:

For those interested in the new R3207 LMS 6201 Princess which in late 1936-1937 condition so far as I know, the livery is in my opinion superbly rich.

 

  

 

Cheers

 

Here is the lower pic enhanced with editing and a vac pump and a few touches.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82970-hornbys-best-ever-models/page/132/&tab=comments#comment-3867053

[Flying Pig]

On 08/03/2020 at 05:11, robmcg said:

For those interested in the new R3207 LMS 6201 Princess which in late 1936-1937 condition so far as I know, the livery is in my opinion superbly rich.

 

I think that we decided up thread that the model is in 1940-45 condition (domed boiler and post-1938 livery with vacuum pump removed).

 

6201 went through a lot of changes in the first decade of her life and unfortunately your very nice image of her with vac pump isn't quite right for 1936/7.  She got a standard 4000 gallon/9 ton tender in 1935 and only received the larger 10 ton modelled by Hornby in 1936/7.  The boiler was changed for the domeless spare (still to the original pattern) in 1937 so it is possible that the tender was changed for the 10 ton type then as well - i.e. the combination of domed boiler and 10 ton tender didn't occur until 1940.

 

Hornby's livery is the 1938 one of seriffed figures in chrome yellow, shaded vermillion, rather than the gold letters, shaded black of all earlier schemes.  As built, 6201 would have had seriffed figures, but it's possible that from the 1937 reboiler and new tender until 1940 she had the 1936 sans-serif figures - someone with more books than I have will know.

 

 

[Buhar]

The 10 ton tender was fitted in November 1936, either just before or after the record run which was undertaken with the domed boiler. The last of the class was fitted with a 10t in January 1937.

Alan 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Buhar
Clarity

[robmcg]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think that we decided up thread that the model is in 1940-45 condition (domed boiler and post-1938 livery with vacuum pump removed).

 

6201 went through a lot of changes in the first decade of her life and unfortunately your very nice image of her with vac pump isn't quite right for 1936/7.  She got a standard 4000 gallon/9 ton tender in 1935 and only received the larger 10 ton modelled by Hornby in 1936/7.  The boiler was changed for the domeless spare (still to the original pattern) in 1937 so it is possible that the tender was changed for the 10 ton type then as well - i.e. the combination of domed boiler and 10 ton tender didn't occur until 1940.

 

Hornby's livery is the 1938 one of seriffed figures in chrome yellow, shaded vermillion, rather than the gold letters, shaded black of all earlier schemes.  As built, 6201 would have had seriffed figures, but it's possible that from the 1937 reboiler and new tender until 1940 she had the 1936 sans-serif figures - someone with more books than I have will know.

 

 

 

 

6201 still had the vac pump (not operating) and had a domed boiler in this pic

 

 

Not sure when it was taken, but I thought vac pumps were commonly removed from 1936 . I'm still looking in various books for when that domed boiler was fitted, certainly 6200 got one early on.

 

Cheers

Edited March 9, 2020 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Another example of variation in lighting affecting our perception of Hornby livery,  I was in a room with natural window light and no more, a dull cloudy day, and looking at the new Princess it was very, very, darkish....  that word being highly technical   but certainly darker than catalogue and shop photos.

.

I have tried to reproduce it here.  No light but ambient dull weather indoors.

 

 

by comparison Tony Wright's pic from his Wright Writes thread,  he being the gold standard for accurate photography.. I do hope he doesn't mind.

 

 

Now back to arguing about BR greens...     I have a 46203 pic in BR Brunswick Green which is driving me nuts. Swindon has a lot to answer for!

 

edit;

I would just like to add a quote from the flickr page of the 6201 society regarding the 1936 sub-6hr Glasgow-London run...

 

... the fact remains that 6201 achieved lasting national and international acclaim as did its driver Tom Clark, of Crewe, who was awarded the OBE in recognition of his remarkable skills as the driver.

In later life 6201 has notched up a few more 'firsts', but above all else she remains the Locomotive which set the record for the longest, hardest and fastest non stop run with a steam hauled passenger train.

 

What an engine!   

 

p.s. Don't mention  The Caledonian with 45244 or 46245 (Iforget which) which went much faster again...

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by robmcg

[Flying Pig]

52 minutes ago, robmcg said:

6201 still had the vac pump (not operating) and had a domed boiler in this pic

 

Well that answers my question about whether 6201 carried the 1936 sans-serif figures, as she clearly did. The tender is the higher-sided 10 ton design and as you say the boiler is a domed one.  So that's the condition between acquiring the new tender sometime in 1936/7 and the change to a domeless boiler in 1937.  

 

As I previously posted, removal of vacuum pumps was authorised in March 1938 at the next shopping.  6201 possibly didn't have hers removed until 1940 when she reverted to a domed boiler.

[Buhar]

The plot thickens.  When was the 1936 sans serif numbering discontinued?  This is a crop of a photo of the cabside just before the record run.  Clearly serif lettering and almost certainly black shaded.  There were 3 boilers capable of being fitted to 6200 & 6201 and I believe the domed one was built after the increase in superheating so 6200 wouldn't be carrying it "early" in her career,

Alan

[robmcg]

Well, the blue BR 46206 appears to have arrived at Hornby.

 

We are spoiled indeed! 

[Flying Pig]

55 minutes ago, Buhar said:

The plot thickens.  When was the 1936 sans serif numbering discontinued?  This is a crop of a photo of the cabside just before the record run.  Clearly serif lettering and almost certainly black shaded.  There were 3 boilers capable of being fitted to 6200 & 6201 and I believe the domed one was built after the increase in superheating so 6200 wouldn't be carrying it "early" in her career,

Alan

 

A photo showing 6201 on the November 1936 record run is reproduced here, showing that she had a domed boiler, 9 ton tender and serif figures at that time.  The sans-serif figures shown in robmcg's photo were applied later, again I'm guessing to match the newly built 10 ton tender. The later style serif figures were introduced in 1938.

 

 

[robmcg]

5 hours ago, Buhar said:

The plot thickens.  When was the 1936 sans serif numbering discontinued?  This is a crop of a photo of the cabside just before the record run.  Clearly serif lettering and almost certainly black shaded.  There were 3 boilers capable of being fitted to 6200 & 6201 and I believe the domed one was built after the increase in superheating so 6200 wouldn't be carrying it "early" in her career,

Alan

 

 

 

Quite so, about 6200, I have done many pics of 6200 in her early years, all without a dome, I don't know why I got my wires crossed, my apologies.

 

I am guessing Hornby's 6201 may be approx late 1936-7 but without the pump and with later lettering maybe later in 1938-9? Or 1940 as mentioned  while ago? Bearing in mind the early tooling had the pump but it got lost in development, being on the wrong side on one prototype model.

 

Super model regardless and I have just ordered a 46206.

[Buhar]

15 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

A photo showing 6201 on the November 1936 record run is reproduced here, showing that she had a domed boiler, 9 ton tender and serif figures at that time.  The sans-serif figures shown in robmcg's photo were applied later, again I'm guessing to match the newly built 10 ton tender. The later style serif figures were introduced in 1938.

 

 

Any tips on distinguishing between the two sizes of tender? I only know of the height of the sides.

Alan 

[Flying Pig]

2 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Any tips on distinguishing between the two sizes of tender? I only know of the height of the sides.

Alan 

 

Some info from Brassmasters: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/princess_4000_tender.htm

 

Princesses only had the 9 ton type between 1935 and about 1937 and the 10 ton after that, so for most modellers it isn't an issue, though it's a possible future variant or kitbash.

[Flying Pig]

11 hours ago, robmcg said:

I am guessing Hornby's 6201 may be approx late 1936-7 but without the pump and with later lettering maybe later in 1938-9? Or 1940 as mentioned  while ago?

 

It's clearly post 1938 as it has a livery that wasn't introduced until then.  The 1940 date is from information that 6201 carried a domeless boiler* from 1937-1940. So I think post 1940 really is the best conclusion.  

 

*this was the third, spare boiler for 6200 and 6201 which for some reason was not rebuilt with a dome when the others were about 1935.

[robmcg]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

It's clearly post 1938 as it has a livery that wasn't introduced until then.  The 1940 date is from information that 6201 carried a domeless boiler* from 1937-1940. So I think post 1940 really is the best conclusion.  

 

*this was the third, spare boiler for 6200 and 6201 which for some reason was not rebuilt with a dome when the others were about 1935.

 

Boilers are all listed in full spec., serial numbers and dates fitted , tube sizes etc on pp 32-3 in Irwell's Book of the Princess Royal Pacifics by Ian Sixsmith.

 

Three boilers suitable for 6200-6021 were nos 6048,9 and 50.  6200 received domed boiler 6049 in 5/37 which depending on your definition is as you say not early in her career.

 

6201 started with 6048 with header, and in 10/35 received domed 6049. In 9/37 it received 6050 header boiler, back to 6049 domed in 2/40.

 

Domed boiler 6049 is listed as fitted to 6200 in 5/37-8/39 then domed 6048 8/39 to 4/42, and 6048 fitted to 6201 from  10/35 to 9/37 which is to me the period for our Hornby model. From 9/37 to 2/40 it had header boiler 6050. (as you say)  thus domed 10/35 to 9/37 was correct.

 

6048 and 6049 were domed after 10/35 and 3/37 respectively. 6048 appears to have lasted until the early 1950s the others didn't last so long. when they were replaced by boilers from the 91xx series.

 

6200 got a 9 ton Stanier tender in 4/35 and 10 ton in 11/36.

6201 got a 9 ton Stanier tender in 3/35 and 10 ton in 11/36.

 

Another book, by Col. H.C.B. Rogers OBE Express Steam Locomotive Development in Great Britain and France, by OPC,  describes the preparation of 6200 in 1933 as quite shambolic, saved from embarrassment and ruin by Riddles and others. Crewe couldn't get the boiler lagged for cladding,  and other problems, tight mechanical parts melting on first run, and so on.

 

Irwell mentions a hot box and the driver climbed out of 6200's cab front window (they were hinged)during a 1933 publicity run and doused a hot box with oil which then burst into flame !  p11 caption

 

In any event the lettering style and vac pump is really a matter for photos. I haven't found the official changes yet.

Edited March 10, 2020 by robmcg
typos, correction.

[robmcg]

8 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

It's clearly post 1938 as it has a livery that wasn't introduced until then.  The 1940 date is from information that 6201 carried a domeless boiler* from 1937-1940. So I think post 1940 really is the best conclusion.  

 

*this was the third, spare boiler for 6200 and 6201 which for some reason was not rebuilt with a dome when the others were about 1935.

 

Or 1935-37 with incorrect lettering? That's my view, and I don't personally care much that serif or sans serif is used.  Would have been nice to have the vac pump though.

 

edit; and you are right, post 2/1940 would be correct

Edited March 11, 2020 by robmcg

[Pete the Elaner]

10 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

and you are right, post 2/1940 would be correct

Which also corresponds with the 5A shed code.

[MikeParkin65]

 

15 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

Or 1935-37 with incorrect lettering? That's my view, and I don't personally care much that serif or sans serif is used.  Would have been nice to have the vac pump though.

 

edit; and you are right, post 2/1940 would be correct

New April copy of Railway Modeler reviews 6201 (very favorably)  and includes a photo of the real thing in the condition portrayed by the model dated 31st August 1940

[Buhar]

That seems to clarify everything. I am surprised Hornby didn't reproduce the record run configuration, maybe the issue with the crosshead pump, which I suspect the factory messed up on, precluded that.

Alan 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

That seems to clarify everything. I am surprised Hornby didn't reproduce the record run configuration.

Suits me because I can run it with my Duchesses, although I would probably use modeller's licence to do so anyway.

[robmcg]

All in all I think we can safely say that Hornby have done very well!

[Robin Brasher]

There is a review of the 'Princess Elizabeth' on pages 336 and 337 of the April Railway Modeller.

 

The conclusion was that when Cyril Freezer measured the original Rovex Princess in the March 1952 Railway Modeller he found it excellent value for money, but he had some concerns about the dimensions.

 

Now ,68 years on, this magazine has no such qualms about the new 'Princess'.

[robmcg]

R3711 blue BR 46206 In stock at Rails and Kernow and quite possibly other shops now.

 

I had misgivings about the white boiler lining but it looks good in this Rails pic., acknowledgements to them.  (no connection)

 

 

 

cheers

Edited March 12, 2020 by robmcg
correction and added pic