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Hornby - New tooling - LMS Princess class


Andy Y
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Hi @MikeParkin65 Thanks for the comparison photo - mine sits almost as low as yours does now - mine is perhaps a 1/4 of a mm higher than what you show, but I think I know what I can file to squeeze that last bit of height - I am yet to flatten the top of the hole for the screw for the front chassis lug. I have cleaned it of excess paint but it is not yet flat on top :)

 

The rest of the fit looks similar to mine too - I still have some tweaking of the sir of the valve gear to do.

 

Cheers,

  60800

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37 minutes ago, Brocp said:

The comet bogie does make a huge difference. Why Hornby thought it a good idea to design there's for a front coupler is strange decision. 

The NEM box can be neatly snapped off from the Princess bogie which does improve the appearance but then the Comet adds the distinctive 3 holed front stretcher which improves the look especially for locos that don’t have AWS fitted and therefore no bang plate. The comet bogie mounts directly to the Hornby mounting point, the only modification needed was a spacer where the Hornby arm screws to the chassis to allow for the smaller (scale!) Gibson wheels. I found without the spacer the bogie derailed too easily. 

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The last bit of work on 46207 tonight pulled it down to the same height as Mike's - the big remaining issue stopping it sitting the same as Hamilton is that there is a slight incline on the chassis at that point - no worries as I can file it down later. I will need to snap the glue joints for the smokebox to the running plate so that can be manipulated, but I'll have to be very careful by trying to score though the glue with a knife - I can't just pull the joints apart as I did with the fake front frames which came off almost too easily. 

 

Cheers,

  60800

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1 hour ago, Brocp said:

The comet bogie does make a huge difference. Why Hornby thought it a good idea to design there's for a front coupler is strange decision. 

 

45637 Windward Islands was piloting 46202 Princess Anne when the 2 were destroyed at Harrow in 1952. Maybe it is so workings like this can be re-created?

Edited by Pete the Elaner
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3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

45637 Windward Islands was piloting 46202 Princess Anne when the 2 were destroyed at Harrow in 1952. Maybe it is so workings like this can be re-created?

That's true, I've got a few photos of Duchesses being coupled to Black 5s, hell I've got one of a Duchess with a Midland 3F but it still is something that was extremely rare with these two classes. 

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15 hours ago, Brocp said:

That's true, I've got a few photos of Duchesses being coupled to Black 5s, hell I've got one of a Duchess with a Midland 3F but it still is something that was extremely rare with these two classes. 

 

18 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

45637 Windward Islands was piloting 46202 Princess Anne when the 2 were destroyed at Harrow in 1952. Maybe it is so workings like this can be re-created?

The Duchesses were very rarely piloted, south of Crewe, in my experience at least. In 19 visits to Tamworth and around half a dozen to Crewe 1958 and 59, I only ever saw it once, with City of London and Jubilee Palestine heading south through Tamworth. I do, however have a photo in one of my books of Duchess of Rutland being piloted by a 2P 4-4-0 leaving Crewe for the north...........The caption read that once past Preston the Duchess would be pulling the train and pushing the 2P:wacko:. Never saw a double headed Princess though.

Rgds..........Mike

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1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

I meant more the colour ones orange the other more cream. Though I’ll have a read Of your file when I get back home in case it’s covered. Sure it’ll be a interesting read either way cheers 

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1 hour ago, farren said:

I meant more the colour ones orange the other more cream.

 

Farren,

 

Green locos had orange / black / orange lining; crimson locos had cream / black lining; (except the odd Princess that had orange / black / orange lining, in the same style as green locos, for a while).

 

Hornby have reproduced this correctly.

 

Research is ALWAYS required before criticising models.

 

John Isherwood.

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14 minutes ago, farren said:

I agree but I would like to point out I hadn’t criticised. I was puzzled that the lining on the two (green) locos didn’t match where the green is a pretty good match

 

Now I understand - I hadn't even noticed the second green loco in the background!

 

I would say the background loco is far closer to the truth - the lining of the foreground loco is far too thick and far to yellow.

 

John Isherwood.

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5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Farren,

 

Green locos had orange / black / orange lining; crimson locos had cream / black lining; (except the odd Princess that had orange / black / orange lining, in the same style as green locos, for a while).

 

Hornby have reproduced this correctly.

 

Research is ALWAYS required before criticising models.

 

John Isherwood.

The LMS pacifics had yellow and black lining, not cream.

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40 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

46225_14.jpg.3caadcf2047f554c1ddc0c7d7d146e27.jpg

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Please explain this, then - the diagonal cab stripe is yellow, so what do you call the colour of the lining?

 

John Isherwood.

The cab stripe is obviously much newer than the 46225's livery, which explains why it looks different and there's also more than one shade of yellow...

 

Every single book on anything to do with the Duchesses and Princesses state it's yellow. Photos back it up as yellow. Crewe's paint shop said it's yellow. Someone like Larry Goddard, who knows more than anyone about liveries on locomotives knows it's yellow. You're the first person that's said it's not.

 

Didn't you say something about researching before critiquing?

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22 minutes ago, Brocp said:

The cab stripe is obviously much newer than the 46225's livery, which explains why it looks different and there's also more than one shade of yellow...

 

Every single book on anything to do with the Duchesses and Princesses state it's yellow. Photos back it up as yellow. Crewe's paint shop said it's yellow. Someone like Larry Goddard, who knows more than anyone about liveries on locomotives knows it's yellow. You're the first person that's said it's not.

 

Didn't you say something about researching before critiquing?

 

As you say, there is more than one shade of yellow.

 

'Yellow', however, is generally understood to be something like Warning Panel yellow - and the LMR Pacifics certainly were not lined with anything akin to that.

 

Call it what you will, the lining was a deep cream; sometimes known as Straw Yellow. The same shade was used for lining and lettering of BR coaching stock.

 

'Yellow' may be commonly used to describe this colour, but it is misleading nowadays, when many / most modelled never saw the prototype.

 

I have seen models, and the odd preserved vehicle, lined and lettered in bright yellow - they look terrible!

 

Years ago, Humbrol produced 'Lining Cream' paint, which was an excellent match to the BR shade.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

 

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It's not cream It's yellow. Why would every single source material state its yellow and not cream then? Why would the overwhelmingly majority of people who have seen it, during BR, say it's yellow, when according to you and only you it's cream? It's a BR version of the standard LMS Crimson Lake lining and livery which is darker than the old midland straw coloured yellow. Middle chrome yellow is what the rcts book calls it.

 

Now what the LMS called straw is a different thing again. What they referred to as straw is not the same as the yellow that Crewe used for the lining on for the Maroon (really it was Crimson Lake) Pacifics they repainted from the late 50s. Straw is the edge lining that was used on the 1946 lined black locomotives, it being a pale more like a cream colour.

 

 

Great photographic examples are in "Stanier Pacifics" by Derek Huntriss, you can't look at those photos and tell us it's cream. 

 

Same as the cover of the RCTS book on the Stanier Pacifics, showing 46256 in the livery. Clear as day that's yellow lining around the bufferbeam and on the front running plate.

 

I agree regarding some models looking off with i guess, for want of a better term, straight or raw yellow. Yellow does not scale well with lining, hence why model painters use more of a creamer mix of yellow for lining. But that doesn't stop the real thing being yellow, just the realities of certain colours scaling.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Brocp said:

It's not cream It's yellow. Why would every single source material state its yellow and not cream then? Why would the overwhelmingly majority of people who have seen it, during BR, say it's yellow, when according to you and only you it's cream? It's a BR version of the standard LMS Crimson Lake lining and livery which is darker than the old midland straw coloured yellow. Middle chrome yellow is what the rcts book calls it.

 

Now what the LMS called straw is a different thing again. What they referred to as straw is not the same as the yellow that Crewe used for the lining on for the Maroon (really it was Crimson Lake) Pacifics they repainted from the late 50s. Straw is the edge lining that was used on the 1946 lined black locomotives, it being a pale more like a cream colour.

 

 

Great photographic examples are in "Stanier Pacifics" by Derek Huntriss, you can't look at those photos and tell us it's cream. 

 

Same as the cover of the RCTS book on the Stanier Pacifics, showing 46256 in the livery. Clear as day that's yellow lining around the bufferbeam and on the front running plate.

 

I agree regarding some models looking off with i guess, for want of a better term, straight or raw yellow. Yellow does not scale well with lining, hence why model painters use more of a creamer mix of yellow for lining. But that doesn't stop the real thing being yellow, just the realities of certain colours scaling.

 

 

 

 

You can quote all the references you choose - I know what I saw on many, many occasions.

 

It was what is now known as Straw Yellow - which, to my eye at least, is much more of a deep cream.

 

John Isherwood.

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34 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

You can quote all the references you choose - I know what I saw on many, many occasions.

 

It was what is now known as Straw Yellow - which, to my eye at least, is much more of a deep cream.

 

John Isherwood.

Let's agree to disagree then John.

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Erm, paint debate aside.... I'm happy with the state that 46207 is in now. I had to cut away more of the underside than I was comfortable with and had to split every glue joint forward of the first splashers. I would have split those too but it would have been impossible to do so without damaging the paint.

 

46232 has since turned up as a donor for 46233, so that's the West Shed pair sorted;

 

PXL_20201222_092942219.NIGHT.jpg.bb128b982331d47e3353cd8b91753eba.jpg

 

PXL_20201222_093828955.NIGHT.jpg.9038b083a6f5bb713e09933f637fea92.jpg

 

Since I had 46229 out, I figured I may as well drag out 6220. I bought the initial New-Tool release of the Blue Streamliner and renumbered it. A bit of a redundant exercise now but oh well! 

 

PXL_20201222_095022950.NIGHT.jpg.36634ade80c59c2fb07f5af9ca355166.jpg

 

Obviously the West Shed pair are still to be modified and detailed, but I'm excited to see these four together. Just to wait for Lizzie as preserved and finish my 46235 project now!

 

All I will say regarding the paint debate is that the lining on my two red'uns is yellow.

 

Cheers,

  60800

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