RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted January 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2019 I’ve just received my first rake of Collett Bow-Ended corridor stock. After seeing the quality of them, I can’t wait for the suburban stock to arrive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Yes, as Brian says, there were no all thirds on the 57ft underframe with 7ft bogies. Apart from the 4 car sets - D98/E131/E131/D98 - being modelled by Hornby, there were 5 car sets in the same style for South Wales - D101/E134/C56/E134/D101 - BUT the C56 third was on a 55ft 6in underframe. Chris KT Sorry, didn't spot this yesterday. I think you'll find that the five coach sets for South Wales were formed D101/C56/E134/C56/D101. Twelve sets were built of which at least 10 were allocated to Cardiff. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted January 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) I trawled through Russell last night. As has been commented elsewhere, it is surprising how many coaches that at first glance look the same style, are different lengths and often different widths and profiles as well. In the case of slightly different diagram Lionheart 7mm 4 coach version, it even looks like the 3rd class bays were much more cramped in the composites than in the brake 3rds, which is the sort of life changing info I look out for as a seasoned (but impoverished) commuter! Edited January 11, 2019 by Hal Nail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 On the strengthening discussion above, there’s this HMRS photo on Warwickshire Railways: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbh2628.htm Uses three clerestories (no idea what diagramme). As a west midlander, I’m more interested in the ability to tweak these into the other similar diagrammes and how closely they can be coupled David 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris45lsw Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Sorry, didn't spot this yesterday. I think you'll find that the five coach sets for South Wales were formed D101/C56/E134/C56/D101. Twelve sets were built of which at least 10 were allocated to Cardiff. Chris Yes, indeed. I had a 'senior' moment yesterday! Chris KT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold unravelled Posted January 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2019 I can understand how these are handed, by the ventilator position, but the unanswered, (as far as I can see), question is why? It can't be just to comply with the "no two coaches the same" rule, can it? Was there a pattern to how they were intended to be oriented, say with all the ventilators on the south side of the train? Thanks Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2019 I agree; most things are done on railways for a reason, admittedly not always a valid or good one, but there seems to be no advantage to be gained from 'handing' the ventilators of these coaches. I can see the point of having them off centre, to reduce the overall height of the coach, but not of handing them. Anyone know the answer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Islesy Posted January 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2019 Anyone know the answer? I’d hazard the answer to that is no - I spoke to several knowledgable sources during research about this, as even the Swindon GAs stated ‘right’ and ‘left’ handed and there was no consensus of opinion. I guess we need to wait for the time machine to be invented... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2019 Don't think I could have asked for a more authoritative answer than that! Thank you, sir! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I was interested to read in the latest issue of The Engine Shed that these suburban sets were "dispersed and disbanded" "following World War II" - does anyone know if this happened in GWR days and broadly to where coaches from these sets were sent to? I ask as I'm wondering if I can justify a pair of suburban brake thirds on my 1947-set St Austell - Marsh Mills morning and afternoon return workmen's train... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted January 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) I was interested to read in the latest issue of The Engine Shed that these suburban sets were "dispersed and disbanded" "following World War II" - does anyone know if this happened in GWR days and broadly to where coaches from these sets were sent to? I ask as I'm wondering if I can justify a pair of suburban brake thirds on my 1947-set St Austell - Marsh Mills morning and afternoon return workmen's train... A similar single D109 with end windows made it to the Looe branch. There was also a pair on that line featured in Gerry Beale ‘s book that I can’t identify - looks exactly like bow ended E140s but with flush guards doors and curly grab handles - photo in 1951. Edit diagram E135, of which there were only 4. Edited January 15, 2019 by Hal Nail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 To quote from the October 1946 carriaage working programme: "The trains shewn herein to be formed with Q Sets to be formed with FIVE COACH NON-CORRIDOR SETS (including two Van Thirds) (ie Four Coach Local Suburban set and Third extra) or Six Coach close coupled "Local C" sets. Note - it will be necessary to continue the use of the four coach Suburban Sets and six coach "Local C" sets in the formation of "Q" Sets and the First Class lettering on these sets has been discontinued. The "Q Sets" to be interchangeable and any speclally made up to meet requirements must be formed: - Van Third, three Thirds, Van Third (non-corridor stock)." In other words, yes - add a third to a four coach set. The move towards five coach sets was not completed until the Hawksworth suburbans began arriving in the early 1950s. Chris Thank you. Having gotten the Longworth book - which I am finding useful as a supplement to Russell - it seems if one wants something earlier than the bow ended stock to fill out the rake choices are more limited than I initially thought with not many all third non-corridor diagrams being produced. Indeed no all third toplights, the C25 being similar but pre-dating them? So either that or clerestories? Either way an interesting combination to model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 I was interested to read in the latest issue of The Engine Shed that these suburban sets were "dispersed and disbanded" "following World War II" - does anyone know if this happened in GWR days and broadly to where coaches from these sets were sent to? I ask as I'm wondering if I can justify a pair of suburban brake thirds on my 1947-set St Austell - Marsh Mills morning and afternoon return workmen's train... If you want them you can justify them! It is true that sets were moved around and disbanded/reformed during and after WW2 but unless the late Mr Walford of Bovey Tracey observed any specific instances the probability is that we will never know. Odd coaches could turn up almost anywhere. Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 I will have no compunction whatever about running them on my South Wales BLT. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 I will have no compunction whatever about running them on my South Wales BLT. Never mind Johnster; you're in good company here. Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 I will have no compunction whatever about running them on my South Wales BLT. They will also be running in to Danemouth on the South coast Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 And a good few other places as well I'll warrant... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 And a good few other places as well I'll warrant... I'm pretty sure I saw them at Hiya-Butt Bay, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 When did the composites start to get down graded to all thirds, was this a wartime measure or BR? Just thinking I need an all third non corridor to finish my Newton Abbot - Plymouth workman’s train, and as its near the bottom of the kit building pile something that is unlikely but technically feasible would be better than nothing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 In London at any rate the composites lost their first class accommodation in 1940. I would imagine that most if not all had it restored when first class was reintroduced, on 25th September 1950. The Railway Observer for June 1950 reported thst many London 4 coach sets were split up during the war and only slow progress was made in reassembling them. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 (edited) Thanks to Clearwater for the list of Birmingham sets in post 59. 4949/6237/6242/4951 are shown as having belonged to Set 40 so that will be my choice. Coaches from these diagrams form only 18 sets on the list but Birmingham had a total of 52 four coach sets in the 1951 Local CWN including 4 composed of 70' Toplights from 1913. When did the composites start to get down graded to all thirds, was this a wartime measure or BR?Just thinking I need an all third non corridor to finish my Newton Abbot - Plymouth workman’s train, and as its near the bottom of the kit building pile something that is unlikely but technically feasible would be better than nothing. Harris mentions downgrading from 1953 when talking about the previous batches of Bow-End Composites. Interesting as I am basing my stock on c1956/7 and many of the trains in contemporary photos seem to be formed Composite/Brake Second/Second. Edited January 12, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2019 I’d hazard the answer to that is no - I spoke to several knowledgable sources during research about this, as even the Swindon GAs stated ‘right’ and ‘left’ handed and there was no consensus of opinion. I guess we need to wait for the time machine to be invented... Here is a complete guess, which may be wildly wrong. It may have been desirable to have the first class compartments at different ends of the coach for marshalling purposes, yet to have all the battery boxes (for example) on the same side for servicing/maintenance purposes - hence in effect "reversing" the bodies on the underframes. That's all I can think of this morning. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 I have an idea that the handing of coach rake was instigated due to the loading gauge. By & large, the loco will be turned, not the rake. Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 In London at any rate the composites lost their first class accommodation in 1940. I would imagine that most if not all had it restored when first class was reintroduced, on 25th September 1950. The Railway Observer for June 1950 reported thst many London 4 coach sets were split up during the war and only slow progress was made in reassembling them. Chris Thanks Chris, that pretty much reconfirmed my thoughts that I have no use for these coaches. But that should I see a composite at a bargain price in a year or so’s time it would be a worthwhile addition as a gap filler Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Andy W Posted January 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2019 I have an idea that the handing of coach rake was instigated due to the loading gauge. By & large, the loco will be turned, not the rake. Ian. Not in the Birmingham area, where a fair number of these coaches were allocated from new. Diagrams including Birmingham-Stourbridge Junction-Wolverhampton-Birmingham or Birmingham-Stratford upon Avon-Leamington Spa-Birmingham were bread and butter work for non-corridor stock, and later for the dmus. Both take the train round three sides of a giant triangle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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