Hornby - New tooling - 57' Bow-ended suburban coaches

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, brushman47544 said:

 

So the No Smoking label is almost correct - it should be triangular with red text on a white background.

 

That is my interpretation of the article.

 

The white on red version, as applied by Hornby, does shout BR to me, though.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

I think what you are seeing as a first class sausage may actually be a trick of the light/flash reflection from the edge of the glazing?

I think you might be right about that; it is too high up to be in the correct position anyway which supports your theory.  Still leaves the no smoking labels though; the red triangle with white letters is a BR label and the GW one is a blue bordered white rectangle with, IIRC, blue letters, although what I am remembering as blue may be black.  My memory might just run to GW liveried coaches in the early 50s, but not details of their labels and I am working from preserved examples.

 

In BR liveries, compartments were assumed to be 2nd class if there was no other indication, and smoking unless there was a label prohibiting it, until smoking was banned on trains altogether, I think in the 80s.

 

The red triangle was replaced on BR with a round diagrammatic cigarette-with-a-diagonal-bar through it label, and the 'first' sausage with a white bordered blue square containing a '1'.  These appeared at around the time of the 'corporate identity' roll out in '64 and were applied at depots, not works, so could be seen on late maroon liveried coaches.

[Steamport Southport]

Off topic. But the smoking ban was far later than you realise. 2005 according to the BBC.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4192862.stm

 

Some local authorities banned it on local trains and buses before then by using local byelaws. It was also banned on London Underground and some systems like Merseyrail after the King's Cross fire in 1987.

 

 

Jason

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think you might be right about that; it is too high up to be in the correct position anyway which supports your theory.  Still leaves the no smoking labels though; the red triangle with white letters is a BR label and the GW one is a blue bordered white rectangle with, IIRC, blue letters, although what I am remembering as blue may be black.  My memory might just run to GW liveried coaches in the early 50s, but not details of their labels and I am working from preserved examples.

 

In BR liveries, compartments were assumed to be 2nd class if there was no other indication, and smoking unless there was a label prohibiting it, until smoking was banned on trains altogether, I think in the 80s.

 

The red triangle was replaced on BR with a round diagrammatic cigarette-with-a-diagonal-bar through it label, and the 'first' sausage with a white bordered blue square containing a '1'.  These appeared at around the time of the 'corporate identity' roll out in '64 and were applied at depots, not works, so could be seen on late maroon liveried coaches.

Also off topic, but after the triangle and before the pictogram there was a red circle edged in white, with "No smoking" in white letters.

[Wickham Green]

18 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Also off topic, but after the triangle and before the pictogram there was a red circle edged in white, with "No smoking" in white letters.

................... and remaining off topic  I rather like this : - 

 

...... which I spotted in Alaska recently : Mount Roberts Tramway - so ALMOST railway related !

[The Johnster]

Jeremy Clarkson related a tale about eating whalemeat in a Japanese restaurant on QI once, mainly for shock effect because that's what he's like, and the waiter asked if he wanted grated puffin on his meal.  Of course he did, you would, wouldn't you!

[jcredfer]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Jeremy Clarkson related a tale about eating whalemeat in a Japanese restaurant on QI once, mainly for shock effect because that's what he's like, and the waiter asked if he wanted grated puffin on his meal.  Of course he did, you would, wouldn't you!

 

No.  But then, I wouldn't have ordered whalemeat in the first place.  Just another simple lack of awareness from Clarkson.

 

Regards

 

Julian

[Neal Ball]

My carriages are in transit to Spain, what’s the verdict on the ones that have arrived? Are they good? Leaving aside any mix up with the smoking signs.

 

Apparently one of the brake thirds is still in China, only 3 carriages seem to be in stock. Hopefully the remaining part of the order won’t be too long. Although it gives me the chance to re-build Henley before they arrive!

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, jcredfer said:

 

No.  But then, I wouldn't have ordered whalemeat in the first place.  Just another simple lack of awareness from Clarkson.

 

Regards

 

Julian

 

I'm afraid that you credit him with too much naivety !

 

He makes a very nice living out of being, (or appearing to be), an air-headed boor - he is, in fact, a very shrewd unprincipled money-grabber.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Pteremy]

Nice picture of no smoking triangle here.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interior_of_GWR_Collett_60_"Sunshine"_Excursion_Third_No.1289_(6887463535).jpg

[81C]

19 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

My carriages are in transit to Spain, what’s the verdict on the ones that have arrived? Are they good? Leaving aside any mix up with the smoking signs.

 

Apparently one of the brake thirds is still in China, only 3 carriages seem to be in stock. Hopefully the remaining part of the order won’t be too long. Although it gives me the chance to re-build Henley before they arrive!

They are very nice Neal I picked mine up from Alton this morning and looking forward to getting the remainder of the order

beware of the steps on the bogie's they are very delicate.

[jcredfer]

18 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I'm afraid that you credit him with too much naivety !

 

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Nope, I don't think he did it out of any sense of naivety...  but much as your second comment, save I would add bullying,  

 

Julian

[dibber25]

The lozenge shapes on the windows are 'etched' style 'SMOKING' labels, though whether coaches actually had 'Smoking' and 'No Smoking' labels, I'm not sure. (CJL)

[57xx]

Hope the remaining brake doesn't take too long to get here, my order with Rails only has 10 weeks left before they'll part ship the order.

[it's-er]

On 26/02/2019 at 16:16, gwrrob said:

Well we have a new development. Hornby's corridor coaches are exactly the same, no one mentioned those being wrong.

 

Goodness, what terrific photos - isn't the paintwork and lettering exquisite?   What a tribute to Hornby's research and manufacturing skills.

 

John Storey

[Darwinian]

Hornby have got the smoking labels right I think. The pictures in Russel show smoking signs in the windows of the middle 5 compartments. Leaving 2 compartments each end as non-smoking. That's 2 first and 2 third.

 

However I don't know when the "no-smoking" triangles were introduced. The two liveries in Russel are Plain cream/brown with garter crest and supporters (1927) and Plain cream brown with heraldic shield (late 1927 -1930). After 1930 I lose interest a bit. Assuming the triangles came into use by the time the roundel livery then Hornby have it right (assuming the red triangles are the right period too).

[Darwinian]

Just realised I might have to clarify that first bit. On the 1927-30 livery pictures there are not any no-smoking labels, just unadorned windows for those compartments.

[Steamport Southport]

12 minutes ago, Darwinian said:

Hornby have got the smoking labels right I think. The pictures in Russel show smoking signs in the windows of the middle 5 compartments. Leaving 2 compartments each end as non-smoking. That's 2 first and 2 third.

 

However I don't know when the "no-smoking" triangles were introduced. The two liveries in Russel are Plain cream/brown with garter crest and supporters (1927) and Plain cream brown with heraldic shield (late 1927 -1930). After 1930 I lose interest a bit. Assuming the triangles came into use by the time the roundel livery then Hornby have it right (assuming the red triangles are the right period too).

 

That's the bit we are debating.

 

The GWR triangles were red lettering on white and BR triangles were white on red. I've found the red triangles mentioned in the Parkin BR Mark One book as being from at least 1950. Possibly earlier.  What we need to know is when they changed. The other companies no smoking signs were totally different, so I'm assuming they adopted the GWR style.

 

Not that it'll stop people buying them, but some of us just like to know these things.

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

12 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I've found the red triangles mentioned in the Parkin BR Mark One book as being from at least 1950. Possibly earlier.

 

That sounds reasonable. I can't imagine Swindon changing its pre-nationalisation practice until getting new instructions from Derby, or maybe Swindon initiated the BR style of white lettering on red background.

 

 

[The Johnster]

Not sure the main works would have been responsible for applying these except on brand new builds.  They were probably applied to stock in service at the carriage depots, which could mean that the changeover was very quick (cf applying electrification flashes to everything in the early 60s) or when the depot got a round tuit.

 

I'll be happy if my BR crimson liveried suburbans have the BR type triangles I'm expecting them to.  I've noticed it on photos of these coaches and not the gangwayed stock probably because I have only a passing interest in the gangwayed stock which, lovely though it is, is a bit out of place in a Mid-Glamorgan mining valley in the Tondu hinterland.

 

Not long now!

[K14]

Trawled through Russell's GW Coaches Appendix Vol 1 and came up with these:—

 

 

So it looks as though the White "No Smoking" transfer came in some time between 1930 & 1934, possibly with the adoption of the single lining, & was changed to Red with the adoption of Blood & Custard.

 

There are a few photos of the 'hybrid' GW/BR livery (Brown/Cream, Double waist lining, Hawksworth door lettering, W-prefix number) that show a rectangular "No smoking" transfer, probably with white text on a blue background.

 

The "Smoking" transfers for the 1928-1936 period looked like this:

 

 

 

Pete S.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by K14
Extraneous attachments

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Interesting that Russell, like Lewis, describes the BR single colour livery as maroon in 1952; I call it crimson and I believe the correct term is carmine.  Maroon, introduced in 1956, is a much darker colour.  There was a short-lived transition livery in early 1948 of chocolate/cream with W prefix and BR type sans-serif numbers, replaced in May of that year by carmine/cream (blood'n custard) for gangwayed coaches and auto trailers and plain carmine for non-gangwayed, the livery the BR version Hornby suburbans will be in.  Auto trailers continued to be turned out in carmine/cream until 1950, when Riddles became aware of the practice and ordered it to cease immediately.  

 

The next change was in 1956 when the gangwayed stock began to be painted in lined maroon and non-gangwayed unlined; non-gangwayed stock received lining after 1958 until the corporate livery was introduced in 1964

Edited March 3, 2019 by The Johnster

[Miss Prism]

John Lewis' 'maroon' = everyone else's crimson.

 

[The Johnster]

But it has a potential to confuse when there was a BR maroon from 1956.  If Lewis refers to maroon on a pre-1956 BR livery, it can be taken to mean crimson/carmine, but to mean maroon post 1956.

[Darwinian]

19 hours ago, K14 said:

Trawled through Russell's GW Coaches Appendix Vol 1 and came up with these:—

 

 

So it looks as though the White "No Smoking" transfer came in some time between 1930 & 1934, possibly with the adoption of the single lining, & was changed to Red with the adoption of Blood & Custard.

 

There are a few photos of the 'hybrid' GW/BR livery (Brown/Cream, Double waist lining, Hawksworth door lettering, W-prefix number) that show a rectangular "No smoking" transfer, probably with white text on a blue background.

 

The "Smoking" transfers for the 1928-1936 period looked like this:

 

 

 

Pete S.

 

 

That agrees with my search through Russel vols 1 and 2. Prior to 1930 the smoking marking was still employed but the lettering appears to be transparent and the “sausage” translucent. Before 1927 there are more variations but not relevant for this stock. 

I’ve used the black lettering on white transfers on my scratch builds as they are all I could find now and the difference is marginal.