Hornby - New tooling - 57' Bow-ended suburban coaches

[Ian Hargrave]

So  my memory is not at fault.Thanks for that,Mike & ChrisF

[The Johnster]

No it isn't, Ian.  I cannot recall them on anything other than passenger work in the Valleys in pre-dmu days, and even after that I can only recall them on freight work south of Radyr and on the main lines, transfer freights being the stock in trade.  A WTT from the period will show restrictions, which, as Mike says, were fairly substantial for outside cylinder locos.

 

My last 'ordinary' steam ride from Cardiff was with a 5101, an Whitsun Bank Holiday excursion to Barry Island from the old bay at Queen Street, non stop Cardiff General-Barry.  Can't remember the loco number, but it was clean and hence probably Radyr's 4175; stock was a standard 5 coach Valleys set of compartment Colletts, last time I rode on them.  There were a few sets kept at Queen Street carriage sidings for this sort of work, but they didn't last long after this.

[The Stationmaster]

50 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

No it isn't, Ian.  I cannot recall them on anything other than passenger work in the Valleys in pre-dmu days, and even after that I can only recall them on freight work south of Radyr and on the main lines, transfer freights being the stock in trade.  A WTT from the period will show restrictions, which, as Mike says, were fairly substantial for outside cylinder locos.

 

My last 'ordinary' steam ride from Cardiff was with a 5101, an Whitsun Bank Holiday excursion to Barry Island from the old bay at Queen Street, non stop Cardiff General-Barry.  Can't remember the loco number, but it was clean and hence probably Radyr's 4175; stock was a standard 5 coach Valleys set of compartment Colletts, last time I rode on them.  There were a few sets kept at Queen Street carriage sidings for this sort of work, but they didn't last long after this.

Interesting that as for many years they were not permitted in the bay at Queen Street.

[Hilux5972]

I received my BR ‘A’ catalogue versions today. Fantastic models, well detailed, and easy to get into. Looking forward to the Prairie joining them

[Steamport Southport]

Is this the Large Prairie thread or Saint thread?

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Is this the Large Prairie thread or Saint thread?

 

 

 

 

Jason

The very definition of irony?

[Steamport Southport]

Well the Large Prairie thread is full of wishlisting about Saints and this thread is now full of nostalgia about Large Prairies.

 

Wouldn't it be better posting all the information in relevant threads? Or even start a Welsh nostalgia thread in the prototype area.

 

 

Jason

 

[The Stationmaster]

15 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Well the Large Prairie thread is full of wishlisting about Saints and this thread is now full of nostalgia about Large Prairies.

 

Wouldn't it be better posting all the information in relevant threads? Or even start a Welsh nostalgia thread in the prototype area.

 

 

Jason

 

There is already a thread for Wales in the Prototype forum, all folk need to do is look for it.

[The Johnster]

I was once a member of a model railway club where all we talked about was computers.  We even suggested forming a computer club so we’d have somewhere to talk about model railways...

[truffy]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

The very definition of irony?

 

The very definition of missing the point?

 

(I thought that the meaning of Jason's post was screamingly obvious)

[lofty1966]

4 hours ago, truffy said:

 

The very definition of missing the point?

 

(I thought that the meaning of Jason's post was screamingly obvious)

That we must talk only about the Hornby non corridor coaches and nuffink else?

[truffy]

4 hours ago, lofty1966 said:

That we must talk only about the Hornby non corridor coaches and nuffink else?

 

Or that there’s a place for everything, and everything in its place?

 

(or just a gentle reminder that the thread was going OT)

[The Johnster]

Well, there's OT and there's OT.  I'm of the view that a discussion of Hornby Collett bowended suburbans can legitimately include the locos that hauled them, and they were predominantly hauled in daily service by various types of large prairies, particularly 61xx in London area and 5101 elsewhere.  Even in South Wales, where slightly different 5 coach sets were used, some 5101s featured among the 56xx and Taff As.

 

It starts getting OT when the discussion moves away from the coaches and becomes about the locos, and I've been as guilty as anyone, so a gentle reminder was appropriate and timely, but I think we can still mention locos in connection with the coaches and the services they worked.  This is important guidance for modellers who are not as conversant with steam age practice as some of us, but want to get things as right as they can.

[Hilux5972]

Getting firmly back on to the coaches (lol) I have had them running today through a series of s bends and reverse curves and long and short Peco points. Absolutely no issues whatsoever. The only problem I did have was when the Grange hauling them tried to go across the points to the adjacent line! No problems with pushing or pulling through the points either. A fantastic job by Hornby and I can’t wait to get the other 4 car set and the Large Prairie locos to haul them. 

[eastglosmog]

Also back on topic and before I get my paint pot out, a question which I hope one of you knowledgeable folk will be able to answer.  When the sets were broken up in the 1940s, how soon would it have been before the Division set numbers on the ends were painted out? With a layout set in 1946-8 could I get away with leaving these numbers on the  coaches ?  Thanks.

[rovex]

Finally purchased two full sets of these. Having been demanding these for years when they finally arrive I have no money. Well I've splashed out and sneaked them into the house so he who must be obeyed doesn't know. I've promised myself not to but any more train things for the rest of the year.

[chrisf]

10 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

Also back on topic and before I get my paint pot out, a question which I hope one of you knowledgeable folk will be able to answer.  When the sets were broken up in the 1940s, how soon would it have been before the Division set numbers on the ends were painted out? With a layout set in 1946-8 could I get away with leaving these numbers on the  coaches ?  Thanks.

 

The answer "it depends" is singularly unhelpful but happens to be true.  Somewhere I have a photo of an 8F hauling a non-corridor brake second/third on the Central Wales line with the lettering "London Division xx" clearly visible on the end.

 

 Chris

[tomparryharry]

On ‎09‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 17:29, Steamport Southport said:

Well the Large Prairie thread is full of wishlisting about Saints and this thread is now full of nostalgia about Large Prairies.

 

Wouldn't it be better posting all the information in relevant threads? Or even start a Welsh nostalgia thread in the prototype area.

 

 

Jason

 

 

Nostalgia? In Wales?  Well, I've never seen it..... Are you sure? Listen mate, nostalgia was created in Wales! Of course, it was better in my day.....

 

Ian.

[eastglosmog]

Thanks Chris - just what I wanted to hear!  I'll leave the lettering visible with a bit of weathering as it would be a shame to blot it out without needing to.

Edited April 11, 2019 by eastglosmog
Typo

[Ian Hargrave]

40 minutes ago, chrisf said:

 

The answer "it depends" is singularly unhelpful but happens to be true.  Somewhere I have a photo of an 8F hauling a non-corridor brake second/third on the Central Wales line with the lettering "London Division xx" clearly visible on the end.

 

 Chris

 

The GWR,subsequently BR(W) was sometimes parsimonious in its use of paint,so to compare this above post,I frequently observed freights trundling through Cardiff General with the letters  GWR on the loco tender still faintly visible through the grime until at least the late 1950’s .Thus,to be too concerned about accuracy in timescale might be considered a luxury. The GWR in real terms passed into history in about 1961/62 with the appointment of a certain Mr.Raymond whose aim seems to have been to obliterate its individuality.That’s another story 

[The Johnster]

I have specifically chosen Cwmdimbath's period as 1948-58 to take maximum advantage of this, Ian.  Locos in late G W R intials livery are justified, as well as the transition liveries, and I have workmen's coaches in shirtbutton.  I model to photographs when they are available, and 'best guess' when not; for instance I have no photo of 9649, delivered new to Tondu in 1946 in what must have been unlined green G W R intials, and assuming a full overhaul when her boiler ran out of ticket in 1953, probably ran in the livery until at least then.  I have made the point that she is owned by British Railways with red backed number plates including a smokebox number plate and shedcode.

 

I have a pair of Hornby Collett 57' suburbans, brake and compo, just to show i'm not going OT with this (!), but they are in BR crimson and have no end branding.  I have no idea if coaches from broken up sets were ever used at Tondu, but there were some in South Wales allocated to what was then the Newport Division, and that's good enough for me!

 

The point about liveries is very valid, though.  Nowadays, when stock changes owners, the new owners are often very keen to re-livery the vehicle as soon as they can, and overlays make the job much simpler and easier, but on the traditional railway it ran in what it was painted in until the next major overhaul.  This can be guesstimated at 7 year intervals in the case of locos, on the basis of a 5 year boiler certificate with a 2 year extension following an examination and hydraulic test by by a Board of Trade inspector, but storage out of use for periods and time waiting for space in works might extend this; it is not an exact science.  Best advice as always is to work from accurately dated photos, but these are not always available especially for obscure Mid-Glamorgan valleys workings...

 

I can be fairly accurate with loco numbers as information from RailUK and BR Database shows where they were allocated when, but information about coaches is harder to pin down; types can be shown in photos but rarely numbers.  I have to wing it a bit, although people here have been immensely helpful.  ChrisF in particular has extended my knowledge of such matters very considerably.  

[Budgie]

On 11/04/2019 at 07:23, tomparryharry said:

 

Nostalgia? In Wales?  Well, I've never seen it..... Are you sure? Listen mate, nostalgia was created in Wales! Of course, it was better in my day.....

 

Ian.

 

There is a word for nostalgia in Welsh: Hiraeth.

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, Budgie said:

 

There is a word for nostalgia in Welsh: Hiraeth.

 

Welsh isn't what it used to be.

[The Johnster]

Sort of; hiraeth means a longing (the hir element means long) for something lost, and is often used by expatriates to express homesickness.  I have seen big men with tears in their eyes when the down train emerges from Patchway tunnel and you get that wonderful view over the estuary to Wales beyond.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Sort of; hiraeth means a longing (the hir element means long) for something lost, and is often used by expatriates to express homesickness.  I have seen big men with tears in their eyes when the down train emerges from Patchway tunnel and you get that wonderful view over the estuary to Wales beyond.

They might have been Englishmen fearful of what lay ahead.