RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 You're just a showoff...... I have very similar memories from my own childhood, so I'll show off as well... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 Perhaps you mean 9 compartment. At least they existed ... Chris Oops; yes, I mean 9 compartment... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 So from reading through the above comments, would I be correct in thinking that these carriages wouldn't have been seen down in Somerset / Devon, bar perhaps a one off working on an excursion? (Period 1950s) My heart hopes that they might have appeared, but my wallet has a differing view Cheers, Mike C So from reading through the above comments, would I be correct in thinking that these carriages wouldn't have been seen down in Somerset / Devon, bar perhaps a one off working on an excursion? (Period 1950s) My heart hopes that they might have appeared, but my wallet has a differing view Cheers, Mike C I believe the Bristol area had very similar coaches, but not these diagrams, for suburban work; i suppose these might have got as far down as Taunton, as well as the North Somerset and Severn Beach/Pilning runs. It depends on how fussy you are about the exact right coaches; these diagrams were rare in South Wales but that will not stop me having a composite and brake 3rd for Cwmdimbath under the authority of Rule 1, and realism will be further compromised by it only being half the 4 coach set. I am running an incorrect Airfix B set at the moment, and these will be far less objectionable than the new Hornbys! I applaud the introduction of these coaches, the first every proper GW non compartment RTR that isn't a B set, but actually it's not done us South Wales modellers any favours, making the future availability of proper South Wales RTR coaches much less likely. A degree of compromise has to be accepted if one is not prepared to scratch or kit build and one models an area or period not fully covered by RTR. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I would expect that the 5 coach S. Wales sets could be cut and shut from these. An extra comp and brake/ 3rd should provide enough bits for an all 3rd and extended van ends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 The reference is ‘Window On The Great Western ...An Album Of Everday Scenes From The 1930’s & 40’s’ by MF Yarwood. On page 27 there is a photo of 4993 Dalton Hall taken at Hinton Admiral hauling a 12 coach train with seats for over 850 passengers reporting number 079.formed of 3 Birmingham Division sets. A useful book in many ways this.Enjoy... Thanks Ian You beat me to it. I was having to wait until I get home from work to find it. There is another shot somewhere of different Hall on Bournemouth shed, so I an thinking, this is not a one off. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Roof ventilators all on one side when set is made up correctly. Mike Wiltshire Thanks for that Mike, the illustrations above looked like in the centre to me. But I still wonder, why ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 What locos, if any, other than large prairies were used to haul these 4 coach sets? I am most interested in Chester 1947 Regards from Vancouver John Hello John, I thought you might appreciate some info on Large Prairie activity at Chester around your chosen period as well as an answer to your question. According to John Copsey's excellent article in GWRJ No.88 (August 2013) the full workings for Chester/Birkerhead from 1949 survive! At that time the large Prairies were allocated two kinds of working between Chester and Birkenhead:- Mainline passenger services from the south terminating at Birkenhead Woodside usually changed locomotive at Chester. The incoming tender engine would be removed and the Large Prairie would take the train the last 15 miles to Woodside. Prairies from both Chester and Mollington Street (Birkenhead) were used. These express workings were timed at around 30 minutes and usually stopped at Hooton and Rock Ferry. Stopping trains between Chester and Birkenhead were also handled mainly by the Large Prairies. These trains were timed at anything from 40 to 60 minutes. The diagrams for the Prairies typically involved two or three return trips between the two towns plus a run along the West Kirby branch or to Helsby. Of note, in 1948 Chester still had two of the older 5100 Prairies (Standard No.4 boiler, not covered by Hornby model). However, the more modern 5101s were the dominant type. In 1954 Birkenhead had 10, Chester 7. There is a really good article called "The Great Western in Wirral" with some nice photos of Large Prairies working around the Chester area here:- http://www.pendragonpublishing.co.uk/Great_Western_Wirral.pdf I'll leave it to the carriage experts on RMWeb to identify the vehicles seen in the article! The above article answers your question specifically. "On rare occasions, or when a ‘51XX’ was not available, specials were worked by GW tender locomotives of the ‘43XX’ 2-6-0 Class or ‘Hall’ and ‘Grange’ Class 4-6-0s." Of course Granby is based somewhat on Wrexham, so I'm glad to report a photo in David Maidment's book on "Prairies and Moguls" dated June 1949 which shows 5186 leaving Chester with a local train for Wrexham. However, the train of around 7 coaches seems to be a real mixed bag of corridor stock including two Toplights! Andy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) Thanks for that Mike, the illustrations above looked like in the centre to me. But I still wonder, why ? They are on one side: http://www.gwr.org.uk/coach-ventilators.html We had a discussion a while ago about 'which side' (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108209-gwr-1927-non-corridor-bow-end-stock/), and it seems normal 2-coach B-set vehicles were not 'handed', but some of these 4-coach set vehicle diagrams were. Edited January 9, 2019 by Miss Prism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 Long rakes of these were not uncommon.The GWR/WR was a seaside line.Excursions ran to Barry Island,Porthcawl,Weston Super Mare etc.Nary a corridor in sight.One has to wonder with the benefit of hindsight how current H&S legislation would view the spectacle of hundreds of passengers crammed 8 to a compartment without basic hygiene facilities for hours on end Many of the passengers on these excursions came from impoverished homes without benefit of either indoor toilet or bathroom. And yes,I was once one of those...tin bath on the wall and a trip outside to the lav..So the inconvenience was borne with the stoicism of those used then to nothing better.But how did we/they manage? I honestly cannot remember being in a position of acute need of the toilet whist on Valleys journeys and when the dreaded diesel mu arrived in 1958 it too came without facilities. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 Thanks Ian You beat me to it. I was having to wait until I get home from work to find it. There is another shot somewhere of different Hall on Bournemouth shed, so I an thinking, this is not a one off. Mike Wiltshire Correct.Same book,Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 Hello John, I thought you might appreciate some info on Large Prairie activity at Chester around your chosen period as well as an answer to your question. According to John Copsey's excellent article in GWRJ No.88 (August 2013) the full workings for Chester/Birkerhead from 1949 survive! At that time the large Prairies were allocated two kinds of working between Chester and Birkenhead:- Mainline passenger services from the south terminating at Birkenhead Woodside usually changed locomotive at Chester. The incoming tender engine would be removed and the Large Prairie would take the train the last 15 miles to Woodside. Prairies from both Chester and Mollington Street (Birkenhead) were used. These express workings were timed at around 30 minutes and usually stopped at Hooton and Rock Ferry. Stopping trains between Chester and Birkenhead were also handled mainly by the Large Prairies. These trains were timed at anything from 40 to 60 minutes. The diagrams for the Prairies typically involved two or three return trips between the two towns plus a run along the West Kirby branch or to Helsby. Of note, in 1948 Chester still had two of the older 5100 Prairies (Standard No.4 boiler, not covered by Hornby model). However, the more modern 5101s were the dominant type. In 1954 Birkenhead had 10, Chester 7. There is a really good article called "The Great Western in Wirral" with some nice photos of Large Prairies working around the Chester area here:- http://www.pendragonpublishing.co.uk/Great_Western_Wirral.pdf I'll leave it to the carriage experts on RMWeb to identify the vehicles seen in the article! The above article answers your question specifically. "On rare occasions, or when a ‘51XX’ was not available, specials were worked by GW tender locomotives of the ‘43XX’ 2-6-0 Class or ‘Hall’ and ‘Grange’ Class 4-6-0s." Of course Granby is based somewhat on Wrexham, so I'm glad to report a photo in David Maidment's book on "Prairies and Moguls" dated June 1949 which shows 5186 leaving Chester with a local train for Wrexham. However, the train of around 7 coaches seems to be a real mixed bag of corridor stock including two Toplights! Andy. Hi Andy Good to hear from you and thank you so much for that comprehensive reply. As always you are a veritable mine of information....particularly regarding the somewhat unfashionable subject of the NW section of the Wolverhampton division The link to the article on Wirral railways is just packed with information and has caused me to rethink Granby's fictional location yet again.......I think it may be shifting closer to Chester again.........I dont want go off topic so if I may I will copy your post on the Granby and go into more detail there. Meantime Johnster mentioned the 56xx 0-6-2s were used for this type of suburban service in South Wales. I see that both Croes Newydd and Chester were allocated 2 and 3 respectively in 1947..........do you know if they were ever used with on the Chester-Birkenhead Service ? Finally I am now confused about how the 2 and 4 car sets were named in the Chester area......... B , D or ??? Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just been searching for something totally different and in one of the books I looked through there is a picture of 6677 with a single Brake Second deputising for a GWR Railcar on a Snow Hill - Dudley service in 1957. Not sure what diagram but an excuse for another combination on my layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 They are on one side: http://www.gwr.org.uk/coach-ventilators.html We had a discussion a while ago about 'which side' (can't find the thread at the moment), and it seems normal 2-coach B-set vehicles were not 'handed', but some of these 4-coach set vehicle diagrams were. Much of the discussion of these coaches is on my thread in the "Special Interests - GWR Rolling stock: Model and Prototype" section. Sorry I've not figured out how to link to other threads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 Hi Andy Good to hear from you and thank you so much for that comprehensive reply. As always you are a veritable mine of information....particularly regarding the somewhat unfashionable subject of the NW section of the Wolverhampton division The link to the article on Wirral railways is just packed with information and has caused me to rethink Granby's fictional location yet again.......I think it may be shifting closer to Chester again.........I dont want go off topic so if I may I will copy your post on the Granby and go into more detail there. Meantime Johnster mentioned the 56xx 0-6-2s were used for this type of suburban service in South Wales. I see that both Croes Newydd and Chester were allocated 2 and 3 respectively in 1947..........do you know if they were ever used with on the Chester-Birkenhead Service ? Finally I am now confused about how the 2 and 4 car sets were named in the Chester area......... B , D or ??? Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
89A Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Long rakes of these were not uncommon.The GWR/WR was a seaside line.Excursions ran to Barry Island,Porthcawl,Weston Super Mare etc.Nary a corridor in sight.One has to wonder with the benefit of hindsight how current H&S legislation would view the spectacle of hundreds of passengers crammed 8 to a compartment without basic hygiene facilities for hours on end Many of the passengers on these excursions came from impoverished homes without benefit of either indoor toilet or bathroom. And yes,I was once one of those...tin bath on the wall and a trip outside to the lav..So the inconvenience was borne with the stoicism of those used then to nothing better.But how did we/they manage? I honestly cannot remember being in a position of acute need of the toilet whist on Valleys journeys and when the dreaded diesel mu arrived in 1958 it too came without facilities. 10 to a compartment in Third Class and very often more. The luggage space in the brake would often also be filled with standing passengers on Barry Island returns to the valleys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 I applaud the introduction of these coaches, the first every proper GW non compartment RTR that isn't a B set, but actually it's not done us South Wales modellers any favours, making the future availability of proper South Wales RTR coaches much less likely. A degree of compromise has to be accepted if one is not prepared to scratch or kit build and one models an area or period not fully covered by RTR. I would expect that the 5 coach S. Wales sets could be cut and shut from these. An extra comp and brake/ 3rd should provide enough bits for an all 3rd and extended van ends. What are the chances of Bachmann announcing the South Wales coaches next week? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TrevorP1 Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2019 10 to a compartment in Third Class and very often more. The luggage space in the brake would often also be filled with standing passengers on Barry Island returns to the valleys. OT but an indication of summer Saturday travelling conditions 'back in the day' were my experiences as child in the early '60s at Salisbury when joining our train to the west country. I think it was the 08:55 from Waterloo. The compartments were already full and folk were sitting on their suitcases in the corridors. We always had to do the same. There was no question of moving around on the train. What the heck though, we were on holiday and if I had a window I was happy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) What are the chances of Bachmann announcing the South Wales coaches next week? Even if they do they won't arrive for at least three years. I've had my Blood & Custard Portholes for nearly four years, announced 2011 - delivered 2015, and am still waiting for the Maroon version which was in the 2017 range. Edited January 9, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbowilts Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I thought people were supposed to be tightening their belts, according to journalists? Talking about chopping up an RTR model that costs as much a a brass kit from Comet?!!! My mind is truly boggled Tim T Modelling Cwm Cynon in EM 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I thought people were supposed to be tightening their belts, according to journalists? Talking about chopping up an RTR model that costs as much a a brass kit from Comet?!!! My mind is truly boggled Tim T Modelling Cwm Cynon in EM That was an observation rather than a recommendation. I certainly couldn't afford to do it even if I wanted to, but prices may come down later it just depends on supply and demand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Can't see the ultra detailed modern stock dropping to Railroad throwaway prices to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 10 to a compartment in Third Class and very often more. The luggage space in the brake would often also be filled with standing passengers on Barry Island returns to the valleys. This continued into the 70s; I remember being guard on an August Bank Holly Monday excursion off the island in 1976 when I had a van full of bikini clad teenage girls (it was a tough job but somebody had to do it) and the doors wide open to get some air in; nobody fell out! A feature of these sort of workings was turning the lights out in Cogan tunnel to hear the scream; you had to do it, they expected it and would have complained otherwise... The van space was also the position of choice for prams and pushchairs. Happy days! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbowilts Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 That was an observation rather than a recommendation. I certainly couldn't afford to do it even if I wanted to, but prices may come down later it just depends on supply and demand.You weren’t the only one to “suggest” it! Tim T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Can't see the ultra detailed modern stock dropping to Railroad throwaway prices to be honest. What like the LMS non corridor stock currently £25 at Kernow? The LNER Gresleys and Thompsons have been similar prices as well. Many of the model shops have had deals of 4 coaches for £100 recently. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 Mmm very nice! Now the $1m question... Do I need them, or just want them... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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